Carpenters on lite jazz radio

[Mark-T]

Well, from reading all the different posts about trying to get R&C airplay, a thought came to mind.
Do you think a light jazz station would play them if they received a CD with:

This Masquerade
Ordinary Fool
Last One Singin' the Blues (edited)
It's Going to Take Some Time (remix)
Sometimes
A Song For You
If We Try
Our Day Will Come
Karen/Ella Medley

maybe even "Boat to Sail" (nice jazzy piano, breezy vocals).

Anyway, just a thought about how they had recorded some in this kind of style over the years.

Your thoughts?
Mark

 

[OceanKing]

We have a light jazz station here in NY, and every Christmas, they play holiday songs by all the contemporary jazz artists.

I always listen for the Cs' slow version of "Santa Claus Is Comin' to Town," the one with the jazzy sax solo. It would be perfect for their format, but I haven't heard it yet.

 

[Bruno]

I think, if Karen would still live today, she would be singing jazz songs. I just love THIS MASQUERADE, ORDINARY FOOL and the others mentioned above.


Linda Ronstadt recorded three albums in the Eighties with Nelson Riddle and his orchestra: WHAT'S NEW, LUSH LIFE, FOR SENTIMENTAL REASONS. On these albums, she sings all those standards like WHEN I FALL IN LOVE, LITTLE GIRL BLUE. Ofcourse, Karen's interpretations of these two songs are much better, much warmer. Linda's voice is stronger, but it's pretty cold now and then.

By the way:
The morning I read about Karen's death in a German newspaper (Tuesday,8th February 1983), I went up to my room, played A SONG FOR YOU and cried.

"And when my life is over, remember when we were together, we were alone and I was singing this song for you....."

 

[PJ]

Good Choices ......would be great to hear more Carpenters Trio tracks on future releases , perhaps a few will be released on October 2002 Box Set plus some other Carpenters outtakes that Richard can arrange with a Jazzy feel

 

[Chris]

Mark, that is a wonderful idea. I've always loved the light jazz music and often thought how fitting it would be if they included some of the Carpenters music. Your choices are perfect. I would add one more - "I Can Dream Can't I". Although it's not technically Jazz, it's overall style and heavenly performance by Karen would fit in with the Smooth Jazz very well.

A friend and I were listening to a Smooth Jazz station a while back in the car and George Benson's vocal of "This Masquerade" was played. My friend said "Why don't they just play the Carpenters' version? It's much better."

Several of the tracks on Karen's solo album would be great for Jazz Radio, with your choice of "If We Try" leading the list. It's no surprise that some well known Jazz stars worked on Karen's album, including the great Bob James. Bob played on the album and arranged several cuts including "If I Had You". One of Bob James' most famous Jazz creations is the theme from TV's "Taxi".

It's great to find this nice forum on the Carpenters.

 

[Rick]

I've thought for years now that Richard should put together a collection of JAZZ STANDARDS with the main song being "This Masquerade".
"All I Can Do" and "B'wana She No Home" would also be great choices.
Oh yes and the instrumental "Flat Baroque"- just love Karen's drumming on ths one!

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Sorry, but I don't agree with this premise at all. "Lite jazz" is a joke to begin with (I'm a purist), and outside of their brief encounter with Ella, Carpenters and jazz aren't a good mix. Of course, they're better at jazz than that Kenny G doofus...


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Rudy]

Just knowing how US radio is programmed, there isn't a jazz station around that would touch it. Heck, the $mooth Jazz stations don't even play all of the $mooth Jazz out there!

Other than WCSX (local classic rock station, mainly for the veteran DJs), and WWJ (for traffic and weather while driving), I don't even bother with the radio.

-= N =-
NP: Genesis, A Trick Of The Tail, "Ripples..."

 

[Brasil_66_Fan]

Neil,
What about 580 AM, a Canadian station playing a real mixed bag of 'oldies' music, including big band, Doris Day, Bing Crosby, Sinatra, and even Brasil '66? I've heard songs from the 50's and 60's that WOMC never ever play, and to tell the truth, I'm getting sick of the same playlist WOMC runs, almost on an hourly basis it seems. Don't know how well your reception is way over in the west side....

 

[Rudy]

Tim--even when I worked downriver, 580 was spotty at best. You'd think that with a clear shot across the water, it would be easier to pull in. One problem down there was that we were within a half mile of WJR's broadcast antenna, which I could see outside the office window. (They're about a hundred yards west of the Riverview landfill.) It even wreaked havoc with the phones in our building--the wiring acted as an antenna, and you could faintly hear AM radio over the phone lines!

When I worked on the east side (Harper Woods), I could get it in to where it was listenable, but with steady background noise. Out here, it's just about impossible to get in, especially since we're pulling stations in from Toledo, Flint, Ann Arbor, Jackson, etc., all competing for space on the dial (yes, even AM ). The only cure I can think of to get more AM stations is to run a long copper wire outside, on the roof. Had a 50ft long "antenna" like that on the roof of Dad's house, and was able to pick up KDKA in Philadelphia and a lot of other out-of-state stations.

What's nice about our area is that I can pick up the stations on frequencies between all of the Detroit station. From Ann Arbor, I can pick up a Lite Rock station on 107.1FM, 99.9FM (not sure of the format) and W4 Country (yes, it's baaaaaack) on 102.9FM. From Toledo, I can get hard rock station WIOT on 104.7FM. I think both WWWW and WIOT are Cheap Channel affiliates. I miss the old 107.1FM from Ann Arbor--they were an oldies station that had a playlist that left WOMC's in the dust, and didn't load it down with so much Motown. Reminded me more of the old Kiss-FM (102.7, from Mt. Clemens), a station I used to keep on for hours.

(The last Carpenters radio memory I had was listening to an older version of WOMC, when they were Adult Contemporary and owned by Metromedia, waiting for them to play "All You Get From Love Is A Love Song". This was before Passage was released. I remember waiting for a couple of hours to catch the song with the tape recorder. )

I can also get in a lot of other FM stations, which I haven't yet identified, including one or two FM stations from Canada. Two or three I can pull in are country stations. Must be from points west and south of us.

But other than CKWW 580AM, there's nothing else in "nostalgia" programming on the dial out here.

We do have a lot of music channels on our DirecTV system, and on one of the channels, I'd heard some Alpert and Brasil '66. But not regularly. And they were usually the "expected" songs.

Makes me want to go to Ramsey Electronics, buy an FM transmitter, and set up my own pirate station...

-= N =-
...searching for "Mexican Radio" by Wall Of Voodoo...

 

[Harry]

If Cheap Channel's new format here in Philly makes any kind of move in the ratings, you can count on cookie-cutter sound-alikes springing up in many other markets where they have failing formats. It's cheap to do.

Yesterday, I heard them playing "Yesterday, Once More."

Harry
...watching the dawn, online...

 

[Rudy]

If Cheap Channel's new format here in Philly makes any kind of move in the ratings, you can count on cookie-cutter sound-alikes springing up in many other markets where they have failing formats. It's cheap to do.

I'm going to check out their website to see if they list any stations and formats. Might not be difficult to pick out their next format-change victim.

FWIW, our WCSX is still making the "live and local" claim. But while I was in the truck the other day, I noticed that the new Cheap Channel station had a DJ named Steve Black, a local guy who was with The Bear (whom they're trying to emulate, even right down to their "classic rock that really rocks" slogan). Makes me wonder if they're voicetracking or not...

-= N =-

 

[Rudy]

Just checked Cheap Channel's website, where you can search by format. They list 54 "nostalgia" stations, only one of which is FM (located in Virginia, although checking the "details" of this station lists the format as "CHR"). One of their AM stations is in Toledo, OH. I'll bet I can pick it up easily here.

http://www.clearchannel.com/Radio/rad_search.php

-= N =-

 

[mr J.]

Captain Bacardi,who feel that "CARPENTERS AND JAZZ" aren't a good mix,has obviously never listened to CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT,OLD FASHIONED CHRISTMAS,and CLOSE TO YOU.These 3 albums are largely jazz-oriented(both vocally and musically).He must have also never heard all the jazz standards that are scattered through most of their albums(ordinary fool,this masquerade,a song for you,from this moment on,little girl blue,etc)He may have also been unaware that legendary jazz arrangers Nelson Riddle and Billy May did orchestra work on a few Carpenters albums,AND he probably didnt know that karen and richard started out as a JAZZ TRIO! Most people consider Karen Carpenter to be more of a jazz singer than a pop singer-this is clearly evident on most of her albums,which,aside from passage and made in america,convey a very downbeat,torchy atmosphere.(only a small fraction of their whole catalog could qualify as "top 40".this is why most radio stations wont play them-they're more "jazz/lounge" than "top 40 pop".)

 

[Rick]

mr. J, although the Carpenters, as the Richard Carpenter trio started out as a jazz trio, the Carpenters are all the way a pop group. I call it CLASSIC POP.
The album "Close To You" only has one track on it which could really be considered jazz influenced, that would be "Another Song". "Reason To Believe" is more country/pop. The hits "We've Only Just Begun" and "Close To You" are classic Top 40 pop- even somewhat progressive in their day.

The Christmas albums, yes have a bit of jazz influence, but than again there is a country flavor in songs like "Home For The Holidays", classical with "Selections from The Nutcracker", and good old fashioned classic pop with "Merry Christmas Darling".

The Carpeters did do a good amount of jazz influenced music (I say influenced- because it's not true jazz. It's more of a contemporary jazz), but they also did a good amount of country, big band, pop-rock, calypso, etc. It's hard to categorize the Carpenters. Same with Karen's voice. She was adept with several different styles of music. Even her disco tunes were better than other pop divas who tried disco.

I do feel that if properly marketed a collection of Carpenters JAZZ STANDARDS could find a home on contemporary jazz stations. Than again a Carpenters collection of COUNTRY MUSIC standards could also be successful.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Captain Bacardi,who feel that "CARPENTERS AND JAZZ" aren't a good mix,has obviously never listened to CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT,OLD FASHIONED CHRISTMAS,and CLOSE TO YOU.These 3 albums are largely jazz-oriented(both vocally and musically).

Well, mr J. I'd say that you have a lot to learn about jazz. I have listened to these albums, and there's very little in jazz. It's definitely good pop material, but jazz? Not a chance. Of course, one of the main problems today is how some music is marketed as jazz, when they clearly are more instrumental/r&b/pop combination. Most of what is on the "lite jazz" stations aren't jazz at all. But that gets into another subject matter.

Most people consider Karen Carpenter to be more of a jazz singer than a pop singer

Hmmm, just what kind of people are you hanging around? That's the first time I had ever heard that!!! I suppose if she hung around long enough that she may have jumped onto the "standards bandwagon" that people like Linda Ronstadt, Carly Simon, Herb Alpert, etc got into in the late 80's - early 90's. Karen could probably have pulled it off, but the Carpenters were not in anyway a jazz group. No way, No how! That's not to diminish anything they did, it's just that they weren't jazz.


Capt. Bacardi
NP: Bill Watrous - Tiger of San Pedro

 

[Harry]

Carpenters were occasionally jazz-y. But that ain't jazz.

Harry
...not much of a jazz fan, but who knows the real thing when he hears it, online...

 

[mr J.]

To clarify the point I made earlier, I stated that Karen was more of a jazz singer than a pop singer.I didnt say she was a jazz singer.This means that karen was comparable to jazz singers like Billie Holiday and Sarah vaughan,rather than pop singers like Olivia newton john or carly simon.I was also disputing captain bacardi"s comment-carpenters and jazz arent a good mix.though karen might technically be a "pop" singer,without a doubt her best work is her "jazz-related" material.Everyone knows what Im talking about here-THIS MASQUERADE, A SONG FOR YOU,ORDINARY FOOL ,I CAN DREAM CANT I,CRESCENT NOON,etc.To elaborate on this point further,when STEREO REVIEW did a review on VOICE OF THE HEART in november 1983,the album reviewer described karen as "Having more in common with rosemary Clooney and Margaret Whiting,than any of her contemporaries".As rosemary and margaret are both jazz singers,it's pretty obvious what the reviewer was trying to point out.And VOICE OF THE HEART is a very "torchy" album.As far as jazz purists are concerned,well, even Ella fitzgerald and sarah vaughan weren't 100% jazz.-Sarah did a Beatles album,and ella did several "pop" albums in the late 60's with songs like hey jude,I say a little prayer,etc.karen might have been a good "pop" singer,but she was a great "torch" singer!

 

[Harry]

^^ I agree with virtually everything you say mr J. The only thing I'd add is that Karen was rarely, if ever, 'allowed' to explore the jazzier side. The few songs mentioned have some elements in common with today's smooth jazz, but all of her performances come across as perfectly rehearsed and unwavering. There no sense of 'jamming' or anything spontaneous. It's as if everything was written down and decided ahead of time - no improvisation at all. And that can be a major element to jazz, if I understand the musical form correctly. Had Karen lived, I'm certain that the old 'standards', 'torch songs' and even 'country music' would have been explored at one point or another. Perhaps by today, she'd be one of the elder statesmen in the vocal world and might have grown into a vocalist of many colors and still hard to categorize as pure pop, jazz, classical, rock, or country.

The point is that with the recording legacy that she left with us, it's difficult to say that Karen fit into any category other than pop. And I think I'd choke or something if I ever heard "Ordinary Fool" or "This Masquerade" on the smooth jazz radio station. It ain't gonna happen.

Harry

 

[Rick]

Torch, pop, country or whatever Karen was simply a GREAT SINGER- no two ways about it. Next to the pop contemproaries of her time (Olivia Neton-John, Diana Ross, Anne Murray, etc) Karen was easily the best of the lot, in the technical sense of vocal ability!

 

[Rick]

...One more thought to ponder. Even with the very small amount of airplay the Carpenters receive, they are still very well remembered and their fan base continues- even with today's youth. I still see a substantial amount of their discs in most of the big music stores like Virgin, Circuit City, Borders, Tower, Wherhouse, Sam Goody. I'm on the West Coast in California- so maybe not all of you know these stores.
I frequent the Wherehouse ( which is right across the street from me. I was there on a Wednesday- they had 4 copies of Love Songs, 2 Singles 1969-1981, 1 Close to You, 1 A Song For You, 1 Now & Then, 1 Yesterday Once More and 1 Karen Carpenter. When I went back on Sunday ( 4 days later) they had left 1 Love Songs, 1 Singles, 1 Yesterday Once More and 1 Karen Carpenter.

 

[Murray]

The only thing I'd add is that Karen was rarely, if ever, 'allowed' to explore the jazzier side. The few songs mentioned have some elements in common with today's smooth jazz, but all of her performances come across as perfectly rehearsed and unwavering. There no sense of 'jamming' or anything spontaneous. It's as if everything was written down and decided ahead of time - no improvisation at all.

Karen and Richard were such perfectionists that they didn't do anything spontaneously. In their live shows, even their stage banter was rehearsed, and they didn't vary the script at all from performance to performance. I've read many reviews that described their stage presence as "stiff" or "wooden". And both K & R were known to chew out a band member if he dared to improvise at all - they were expected to play EVERY SINGLE NOTE the way that it was rehearsed, so that their live performances would sound as close to the records as possible.

Jazz isn't about "perfection", or being able to reproduce your recordings note-for-note on stage. Real jazz musicians rarely play the same song exactly the same way twice. The melody and basic structure of the song remains, but there is plenty of room for improvisation, for the musicians to play off of each other, to go where the spirit takes them.

While there are "jazzy" elements in some of the Carpenters recordings, I would never call them jazz, just as I would never call Karen a jazz singer. I would describe her as a very versatile POP singer.

Murray

 

[Chris]

Some of the recordings we've been discussing here (Song For You, Ordinary Fool, etc.) may not be considered "pure jazz", but their style certainly fits in very well with much of the jazz I've heard, including some of the live jazz I've heard here in New Orleans. It's true that Karen was not much of an improviser, and she was an absolutely beautiful "Pop" singer, but when you hear her sing things like "Ordinary Fool" and "I Can Dream Can't I", she is right in her element. Call them jazz or just jazzy torch songs, but whatever you call them, I think they are Karen's best.

How great would it have been if she would have made at least one album filled with these types of songs? But don't get me wrong, I will continue to be happy with the songs she did record in this style, and enjoy her amazing pop and rock performances as well.

 

[CraigGA]

Here is my list of Jazzy and Lounge Favorites:

1. All I Can Do
2. Another Song
3. What Do You Get When You Fall in Love
4. Help
5. Mr. Guider
6. Sometimes
7. A Song for You
8. It's Going to Take Some Time
9. Flat Baroque
10. This Marquerade
11. Our Day Will Come
12. I Can Dream, Can't I
13. One More Time
14. Ordinary Fool
15. Still Crazy After All these Years
16. Last One Singing the Blues
17. Boat to Sail
18. Little Girl Blue
19. And When She Smiles
20. Desperado
21. B'wana She No Home
22. Somebody Been Lyin'
23. If I Had You
24. Ella/Karen Medly
25. Honolulu City Lights
26. An Uninvited Guest
27. Solitiare
28. Selections from Make Your Own Kind of Music (as heard on the site thecarpenters/tv)

By far, I Can Dream, Can't I is my favorite, and any non Carpenters fan has to agree that it is picturesque for its style and perfect in arrangement and vocal performance. Still Crazy After All These Years is one of the most original covers Karen did, in my opinion.

And, although not included in this list because of the songs style, I'll Just Fall in Love Again is my favorite rock ballad arrangement Richard created.

Craig

 

[Harry]

Still Crazy After All These Years is one of the most original covers Karen did, in my opinion.

I just discovered an interesting fact about this song. I've read some articles giving a bit of grief to the fact that Karen changed the lyrics on this song from "Four in the morning, crapped out, yawning..." to "...tapped out...".

The fact is, Paul Simon HIMSELF used the phrase "...tapped out..." while singing the song in a concert from 1980. Ages ago, we bought a live Paul Simon concert on LaserDisc. He performed October 7th, 1980 at the Tower Theatre in Upper Darby, PA. not far from where I grew up, and this was in a batch of used LaserDiscs being sold off. It's so ancient, it doesn't even have digital sound, although the analog soundtrack is in stereo. I dug the concert out since we're attending a Moody Blues concert on Tuesday at that very Tower Theatre, and was surprised to hear Mr. Simon singing the changed lyrics.

Harry
...still analog after all these years, online...