Carpenters - the mono mixes

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Harry

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A few days ago, as the anniversary date of Karen's passing came and went, I found myself looking for something different to listen to. I'd heard the Essential Collection set a few times, and I pulled out the Japanese Treasures as a sort of companion piece, since it contained all non-hits. Many of the songs on Treasures are remixes, and though I like those when I'm in the mood for them, I realized that I really wanted to hear the original mixes.

While planning to pull out the individual albums in the Remastered Classics series, it suddenly hit me that the bulk of Carpenters recordings (all, really) came during the "stereo" age. That meant that there really weren't any mono copies of albums floating around out there with different mixes on them. (If there are any mono promo albums for radio stations, I'd love to hear about them.) Many here know about and we've often discussed the differences in the '60s material of Herb Alpert, Sergio Mendes, and others with their mono mixes. Much has also been made elsewhere of Beatles recordings and their respective stereo/mono alternatives.

So I gave a thought to something I'd not considered before. Many promo singles from the '70s and early '80s were issued with the standard stereo mixes on one side, and a mono mix for AM radio stations on the other side. It hadn't occurred to me before that Carpenters singles got the same treatment, as I often would grab a promo single and file it away without ever listening to it, since the track on the album was so familiar. And now I wondered what treasures might lie in those monophonic grooves I had in my collection. Over the last few years, I'd learned that most mono mixes released on both albums and singles were NOT usually just fold-downs from the stereo. That is, these were ORIGINAL mixes done specifically in the mixing studio for mono, in an effort to present the record in the best possible way while only using one channel. Many times, a pure fold-down of the stereo will result in things phasing or becoming emphasized in an unnatural way, so the record producers and engineers would mix these specifically for mono and AM radio stations, which at the time were not able to broadcast in stereo.

The first one I came upon was "It's Going To Take Some Time". I cleaned up the mono side and played it. This WAS different, I realized. The vocal tracks were more forefront than they are in the stereo mix.

Next up was "Goodbye To Love", a song that's seen many remixes over the years. This was the original mix, and again, in mono, the vocals sounded more upfront and less in competition with the backing instruments. I also detected what sounded like a speeding up of the record, and sure enough, after comparing it to the album track, it was quite a bit faster -- at least a quarter to half a tone higher. As the track ended, Tony Peluso's lead guitar seemed more tame sonically, and the fade went on a little longer where a wild organ riff can be heard just as it ends. I'd never heard this before on any mix.

Then came "Top Of The World". Again the vocal presence stood out. Being the single mix, it's got the newer steel-pedal guitar tracks included, yet the final two notes sounded VERY different in this mono mix.

"Sing" was the next one I had, and it doesn't sound all that dramatically different, but again, the vocal presence of Karen's lead is emphasized.

"Yesterday Once More", the next 45 I had with a mono side, is of course the 'finished' single mix, not the original album track with a 'missing' guitar riff toward the end. Karen's vocals are again upfront, and this one had a longer fade than the stereo version, resulting in again, being able to hear a part of the song that I'd never heard before. It actually timed out to 4:04.

"A Kind Of Hush" was the next-in-line promo single I had. This one, like "Goodbye To Love" had been sped up a bit. It also sounds like the bass was boosted a bit to give this mono mix a thumpier quality to it. You can tell at times that this mix is different with the way the instruments sound in relation to each other. Hard to describe, but after hearing a song one way for years and years and then to suddenly hear a different mix is difficult to express in words.

"All You Get From Love Is A Love Song" was next. Again, Karen's vocal is the important lead track as the rest of this busy record is tamed in the mono mix. The sax solo near the end sounds more emphasized here as well.

"Touch Me When We're Dancing", an '80s single with the red A&M label also had a mono mix on the promo single. This one has a slightly longer fade at the end too, and like the others has Karen's lead track more in the forefront of the mix.

Another '80s mono mix I have is "(Want You) Back In My Life Again" and this is another of those 'busy' tracks where the mono seems to tame it all down, leaving Karen's vocal in charge.

The last one I could find in my collection is actually one I'd listened to before - "Santa Claus Is Comin' To Town." The stereo side of this single has a really awful application of that HAECO-CSG system, making it almost unlistenable. But the mono side is spared all of that processing, leaving a clean original-mix track.

All in all, discovering these was quite enjoyable, enough that I dubbed them onto a home-made CD. I'll have to seek out a few more of these if I can, since I don't think we'll ever see these mixes showing up on any officially released CDs, though I'm sure fans would enjoy hearing them.

Harry
...finding enjoyment in old mono mixes, online...
 
Hey Harry.

You got me curious about the mono mixes on promo singles, and I went digging through my 45s to see what turned up.

I found three in my collection that you didn't list -- "I Won't Last a Day Without You," "Sweet Sweet Smile" and "I Believe You."

I haven't listened yet, but I'm going to try to transfer them to CD before the weekend is through. Let me know if you're interested in hearing copies of any of these...

David
 
If what I'm thinking is correct, if you're hearing the center vocals or instruments more emphasized, it is most likely a stereo-to-mono fold-down. Seeing that the vocal is getting twice the signal as something panned far left or far right, that would mean the vocals could theoretically be 3 decibels higher than they were originally. 3dB is noticeable, but only slightly so. (Acousticians have said that 3dB is the level at which most folks can definitely hear a difference between two given levels.)

Interesting about the sped-up singles. Not uncommon, though--I wonder if it was used to take a longer song and make it more radio-friendly (shorter).
 
Rudy said:
If what I'm thinking is correct, if you're hearing the center vocals or instruments more emphasized, it is most likely a stereo-to-mono fold-down.

Well, you have to understand that I have heard these songs many times before with a defacto fold-down -- mono radio, and I'm fairly certain that they weren't using these mixes in most cases. No, these really do sound different to me, and not just in a fold-down way. There are times when the mix just seems different -- and it's hard to describe. But having heard these tunes the bazillions of times that I have, I can tell with every fibre of my being that something's different.


Rudy said:
Interesting about the sped-up singles. Not uncommon, though--I wonder if it was used to take a longer song and make it more radio-friendly (shorter).

That was my first thought, but in several cases the tracks actually went on longer than their published time. I wonder if it was some kind of accomodation for talky DJs!

davidgra said:
I found three in my collection that you didn't list -- "I Won't Last a Day Without You," "Sweet Sweet Smile" and "I Believe You."

Well I'll be curious to see if you hear any differences, for sure. No, I know I don't have a complete collection of these. I never even considered it before, so it wasn't important. In a few recent searches on the Internet I've also turned up the fact that "Please Mr. Postman" was issued that way too. I haven't yet seen any of the early singles with mono/stereo promos yet though. I wonder if they were ever issued that way. I know that the "Close To You" 45 was one of the first stereo singles I ever saw.

Harry
...monaurally yours, online...
 
Harry,
I would gladly pay for your time and materials should you ever decide to share your CD!!!
Interesting stuff,,,
Mark
 
This may be a work in progress as I search for the 'others.'

Harry
...on a rather sleepy Saturday, online...
 
Seems to me the easiest way to compare the mixes of the mono singles with the stereo versions is to transfer both the A- and B-sides of the promo singles, do a "fold-down" of the stereo mix, and then compare the two.

That gives you sort of an "apples to apples" comparison in terms of vocal balance, instrument volume, etc.

Not having listened to any of these singles yet, I can't comment as to differences, but it has always been my understanding that singles meant for AM radio play were more compressed and EQed differently than albums.

I've got to do some more digging through my collection, because I feel sure I had copies of promo singles for "Please Mr. Postman" and "Calling Occupants" at some point in time.

My original "Ticket to Ride" single isn't marked "stereo" either -- does anyone know offhand if it is stereo or mono? All subsequent singles say "stereo" on the label.

I need to break out the record cleaner and do some work here...

David
 
Harry said:
"Yesterday Once More", the next 45 I had with a mono side, is of course the 'finished' single mix, not the original album track with a 'missing' guitar riff toward the end. Karen's vocals are again upfront, and this one had a longer fade than the stereo version, resulting in again, being able to hear a part of the song that I'd never heard before. It actually timed out to 4:04.

Actually, I have the stereo "stock copy," and I find that my copy timed out to 4:01, with a fade lasting close to :24 seconds. What was the fadeout on your mono copy? In any case, with a time like that, it could be hard to believe for some that the time was given on the label as "3:50," although I suppose that for the purpose of radio stations it would make sense. (Actually, the 4:01 time was on the lacquer marked take "P3" -- more specifically, "A+M 2493S-P3" -- on the "dead wax" area of the 45 copy I have, which was pressed by Columbia in Pitman, N.J.; another copy from the same plant had a "P2" indication written on the trail-off, whereby the last :01 second was cut off and it timed at 4:00, with a nearly :23 second fadeout; both times were calculated with speed at exactly 45.00 RPM.)

davidgra said:
My original "Ticket to Ride" single isn't marked "stereo" either -- does anyone know offhand if it is stereo or mono? All subsequent singles say "stereo" on the label.

I have as yet to see an original copy of #1142 and thus can't tell you whether it was stereo or mono, but I do know that on the Forget-Me-Nots reissue of the single of "Ticket To Ride" as paired with "(They Long To Be) Close To You," both sides were in stereo. However, as to your original, check the label and the "dead wax." If there is an "-S" suffix in both areas, then it's stereo; if not, then the Carpenters' first single release was mono.
 
Harry said:
I know that the "Close To You" 45 was one of the first stereo singles I ever saw.

One of the first, but not the first. The earliest stereo 45 on A&M I ever saw was "Maybe Tomorrow" b/w "Killer Joe" by Quincy Jones (#1163S). Perhaps A&M first released stereo singles in 1970?
 
davidgra said:
I've got to do some more digging through my collection, because I feel sure I had copies of promo singles for "Please Mr. Postman" and "Calling Occupants" at some point in time.

I knew I had a promo copy of "Calling Occupants...", but it's got two versions, both stereo. One is the album version with Tony Peluso's DJ shtick intact, the other side is the single edit, with the DJ removed and the song itself shortened -- another version that's never seen the light of day on CD, but stereo nonetheless.

Harry
...up early on a Sunday morning, online...
 
W.B. said:
Harry said:
I have as yet to see an original copy of #1142 and thus can't tell you whether it was stereo or mono, but I do know that on the Forget-Me-Nots reissue of the single of "Ticket To Ride" as paired with "(They Long To Be) Close To You," both sides were in stereo. However, as to your original, check the label and the "dead wax." If there is an "-S" suffix in both areas, then it's stereo; if not, then the Carpenters' first single release was mono.

The original stock 45 of "Ticket to Ride" is mono. I have an 1142 in my collection.

By the way, I find this discussion of mono promo single versions to be fascinating. The only Carpenters promo 45 I have that I know of is "All You Get From Love Is a Love Song" (stereo one side, mono on the other). I tend only to get promos when there are different versions on each side (for example, an edit on one side and the LP version on the other) rather than merely one side mono, one side stereo.

Finally, it's also possible that some of the earlier Carpenters 45s don't exist as mono-stereo promos because they have both the A and B sides on them. Those promos, however, might be mono on both sides; I don't know.
 
Tim Neely said:
By the way, I find this discussion of mono promo single versions to be fascinating. The only Carpenters promo 45 I have that I know of is "All You Get From Love Is a Love Song" (stereo one side, mono on the other). I tend only to get promos when there are different versions on each side (for example, an edit on one side and the LP version on the other) rather than merely one side mono, one side stereo.

As I mentioned before, I've had them sitting around here for years and always thought they were nothing special. Whether or not they're really 'special' is still up for debate, but I've found enjoyment in listening to the differences between them and the old, familiar, well-worn stereo tracks.

Intersting about "Ticket To Ride" being mono on the stock single. I'll have to look for that one to compare it.

Harry
NP: Carpenters SINGLES 1969-1973
 
Interesting ....Will Have to Dig Out Some Carpenters Promo Singles to Compare Recordings / Mixes etc.

Did A&M Continue to Issue Mono Sides For All Regular Singles Until 1980's ?

Edits of Carpenters Singles are Always Fascinating to Compare :)


Peter....Intrigued.......
 
PJ said:
Did A&M Continue to Issue Mono Sides For All Regular Singles Until 1980's ?

Apparently, the stock-copy mono single faded into the sunset around 1974. Bell Records almost completely issued mono singles up until the time it was superseded by Arista (though some of its distributed labels -- most notably Big Tree and Rocky Road -- had stereo 45's). ABC-Dunhill Records had a sprinkling of stereo 45's up until 1973, but didn't go all-stereo until the end of that year. On the other hand, except for its first year (1971), all of Philadelphia International's 45's were stereo. Mercury also went pretty-much all-stereo for their singles in 1972. Buddah had issued some stereo singles as early as 1968, but it wasn't until 1973 that they would issue stereo 45's full-time (remember their "Dual 45" slogan?). And RCA, between 1969 and 1973, had designated separate catalogue series for their stereo issues from their monos.

But on to A&M: I noticed that certain of the label's artists were "mono-only" in terms of single releases; Billy Preston, for instance, didn't have a stereo single until 1974, when he scored his second #1 hit "Nothing From Nothing." Stealers Wheel's first two singles ("Stuck in the Middle With You" and "Everyone's Agreed That Everything Will Turn Out Fine") were mono; they went stereo with their third, "Star." Lee Michaels apparently was also mono-only with respect to 45's during his A&M years (his first stereo single would be on Columbia). Cat Stevens was almost all-stereo in the 45 department -- almost, that is, except for his "Wild World" release. Joe Cocker, by all appearances, was an all-mono singles artist up to 1973. Quincy Jones seemed to veer back and forth between mono and stereo on his 45's. Joan Baez's first single for A&M ("In The Quiet Morning"/"To Bobby," AM-1362) was mono; it seemed every artist's first A&M 45 was mono through '73. Mr. Alpert himself seemed to be mostly 45 mono as late as the early-mid-1970's, as that was how his 1973 record "Last Tango In Paris" was released. (He may have done some stereo stuff between 1970 and then prior to A&M issuing all its singles in stereo.)

As for the Carpenters: Since "Close To You," their first stock stereo single, went all the way to #1, it seemed inevitable that every 45 to follow from them would likewise be stereo (although the first issue of "Merry Christmas Darling," #1226, was HAECO-CSG processed from what I can remember).
 
I found a place online that sells 45s, and I ordered a whole stack of Carpenters stereo/mono promo singles. We'll see what actually gets delivered, but according to the descriptions, they are all DJ promos with a stereo mix on one side and mono mix on the other...

These include a single for "We've Only Just Begun," which would be a VERY early example (if it's the 1970 version and not the 1985 remix that was also issued on a promo single), up to a single for "Make Believe It's Your First Time," which would be 1983. Others that I found include "Rainy Days and Mondays," "For All We Know," "Solitaire" and a few more.
So the answer to PJ's question would be that yes, A&M continued to release stereo/mono singles into the 1980s.
 
:)

Hi Everyone. I have been reading the board for while & finally decided to start posting. I use to be on the old RoadOde board of Ran's that dismantled & I must say, I was devastated when that happen, I always looked forward to his site & that board. I can't begin to tell you all the friends I made from Ran's board but most of all the knowledge that I obtained about my most favorite group The C's. I am a huge C fan since the middle 70's. I never saw them in concert but Karen's voice is truly amazing.

Hi Harry, How are ya?

When I read this post a while ago, I kept saying to my self that I had to get on here. This is a very cool find that you happen to stumbled upon. I am fascinated by this. So much that I am seriously thinking of buying a another turntable. LOL I still have all my lp's & some 45's (Wish I had not sold mine years & years ago)

I wanted to add that today, I was in a Oldies Record Store that sells really old/rare stuff, I mentioned I was a C fan & he showed me 2 Carpenters 45's I had never seen these before, they did not look like your normal 45's but they were indeed 45's. He said they were very very rare & after I got home I couldn't for the life of me remember what he called them. I want to say DJ copies but I don't think that was it. The slip cover did not look like your normal pic cover. One of the 45's had 3 songs on it on one side. I remember NOT seeing the word Stereo on the actual 45 but on the slip cover that had the words Carpenters written all over it had the word stereo written on the very top paper. Also one of the 45's was for Now & Then I think but like I said the cover art was not the normal art work.

Just wondering...were there other 45's made that were rare & not mass produced like all the usual ones. I wish I could remember what he called them but kept saying they were rare. I will have to visit there again to inquire.

...looking forward to becoming a part of this forum....
 
Hey Chris. Welcome to the A&M Corner Forum. Well, welcome to posting, anyway, since I know you've been out there lurking for a long time!

Could those disks you saw be jukebox issues? It was common in the vinyl jukebox days for a section of the machine to be designated as "albums". They made special disks with usually three songs on each side from the album, and though they were the same size as 45s, actually played at 33 1/3, and had the smaller hole in the center. In my travels, I've managed to find a couple of these with the A&M label. One is Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass' SOUNDS LIKE, and the other is Tamba 4's WE AND THE SEA. A couple of times I've seen Carpenters jukebox albums on eBay, but the prices were too high for me to even consider them. And from what I've learned about them, they don't usually contain anything in the way of rare mixes or anything -- just the usual stereo mixes presented three at a time.

Neil here, our chief cook and bottle washer, usually has some good ideas as to where and how to secure decent turntable equipment. I know that a turntable is one piece of audio hardware I couldn't imagine living without.

Harry
...welcoming Chris to the forum -- now, if we could only find Anneloes, online...
 
Thanks Harry, Oh yeah, wonder how Anneloes is doing? She was in the Netherlands... she was always so funny too, LOL

I think you just said it Harry, Jukebox 45's That name sounds like what he said. I didn't ask how much, when I heard rare I figured it would be lots LOL But I thought it was different seeing 3 songs on a 45, something I had not seen before.

So correct me if I'm wrong, are the 45's your talking about have the word MONO written on the actual 45 label on each side?
 
Hey Tim, Your name looks familar, did you use to post on ran's old forum?

Actually I didn't buy the 45's I just held them & looks with amazment. :)
 
Chris-An Ordinary Fool said:
I think you just said it Harry, Jukebox 45's.

The three-to-a-side scenario made that likely.

Chris-An Ordinary Fool said:
So correct me if I'm wrong, are the 45's your talking about have the word MONO written on the actual 45 label on each side?

These jukebox mini-albums that I have are stereo, but that doesn't mean that all of them are. In fact, given the topic that this thread is built-on, if I found out that the tracks were mono, I'd be tempted!

And yes, Anneloes is from The Netherlands. When Ran's forum was discontinued, I believe it was summer, and she, being a student wasn't around, and I lost her mailing address at the University anyway!

Harry
NP: early morning silence (except for the gentle hum of a new computer)
 
Hey!

I have an opportunity to buy a dozen or so 45's w/stereo on one side of the single and mono on the other. All for about $4.00 ea. I'm wondering if they are a viable collector's item or just something to be filed away amidst the memorabilia I have acquired? If they are collectible, then this Gent who owns this resale record shop has no idea of what he's holding onto...

Jeff
 
I'm not sure of the collectability of them, but for a fan, having any kind of alternate mix is always a plus. If they're reasonable, buy them, but not for their potential dollar value, but for their ability to make you, the fan, happy.

Harry
...heading home, online...
 
this may be a little off the subject but since were talking about 45's

I've seen Carpenters discs in 3'', 7'', then there is 45's & lp's

What are 3 & 7 & how do they play?
 
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