Do You Think Richard Should Release A New Single?

Should Richard release a new Carpenters single in North America?


  • Total voters
    29
"Top Of The World" by Carpenters had already become a single in Japan using the album version.
'Top of the World' was also a Number One single in Australia quite a while before it was released in America, (album version). It was Number One for an entire month, I believe. I'm not sure whether it was released in Japan or Australia first.
 
Has anyone told Ella Fitzgerald, Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston and Barbra Streisand yet?

I'm with Carpe Diem; there were amazing singers in Karen's era (as there are in any era, really) and some of them had bigger voices with greater range, but none touched me like her voice did. And that's really the only way to measure something that is, ultimately, personal; how we respond to them.
 
There's something about "Solitaire" that is just so morose, such a downer. To my ear, anyway, "A Song For You" and "This Masquerade" are not that level of depressing. And...those songs speak directly. I think the metaphor of a card game (especially one our generation tended to consider an "old folks" way of killing time) wasn't a great way to go, either. No one's ever really scored (in this country) by recording that song.

And the Carpenters weren't likely to, either...as neither of them liked it. From Wikipedia, quoting John Tobler's "Complete Guide to the Music of the Carpenters:

The Carpenters recorded "Solitaire" for the 1975 Horizon album; Richard Carpenter, familiar with the song via the versions by Neil Sedaka and Andy Williams, was "not crazy" about the song but felt it would showcase Karen Carpenter's vocal expertise and Richard Carpenter would assess Karen Carpenter's performance on "Solitaire" as "one of [her] greatest" adding "she never liked the song [and]...she never changed her opinion."[1]

As for what comes after HORIZON, if you're looking for chart success (apart from the Adult Contemporary/Easy Listening chart), that gets a lot harder.

Even if the image problem could have been succesfully managed between 1970 and 1975, there is a probable lifespan of hitmaking for most artists. Music changes and tastes change.

Of the artists that had major hits in 1970, who was still doing it in 1976?

Simon and Garfunkel had broken up. Paul Simon managed to do well with "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover", but the other singles from STILL CRAZY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS underperformed.

Diana Ross. For her it took embracing disco early ("Love Hangover") and starring in a movie ("Mahogany").

The Beatles had broken up. Only Paul McCartney could get hits in 1976.

Arguably, Bread. But "Lost Without Your Love" was the only hit after the reunion.

Neil Diamond was already on his way to the "core of dedicated fans" phase. One number 11 hit, a number 43 stiff and a no-show.

Stevie Wonder, absolutely. But 1976 was Stevie's peak year and it cooled off considerably after that.

Chicago, yes. But the hit ("If You Leave Me Now") was a major change in their sound.

James Taylor, yes. But James is one of those artists that just found a sweet spot. And even for James, the hits were over by '83.

Bottom line, even if K&R had no image issues, it would have been against the odds to keep making the upper reaches of the Hot 100 after 1975. It really wouldn't have mattered which song from MADE IN AMERICA was the single.
I'm one who believes that 'Solitaire' is one of the best singles Carpenters released. It's a majestic recording - probably one of the best in popular music.

It wasn't as big a hit as some of Carpenters' earlier songs, and this was for a number of reasons, rather than because of the song itself, or the recording, imo. It clearly received less airplay and this may partly have been due to the conflict with Neil Sedaka, which happened when 'Solitaire' was released. The music press had a field day with this conflict. Karen was represented as a bitc-, (we even heard that in Australia at the time), and Richard as a prat. This issue affected the public perception of Carpenters and, no doubt, resulted in some stations not supporting them as they once did. The fact that they were, reportedly, bagging Neil Sedaka while trying to get a hit with his song affected how people saw their level of integrity. They were painted as the sort of people you wouldn't want to like.

I agree that the song is nothing like the light-weight, breezy music that was making Top 5 at the time, (many would term this music 'disposable'), but it still was a great, atmospheric single - one of the few that can give the listener chills.

I suppose it depends how you define 'great single' - commercial and poppy or just a great record.
 
I just don't know !
That Solitaire Single is about as great as it gets !
Given all I am reading here--from fans--
how could A Song For You or This Masquerade
be considered as single releases, then ?

More to the point, how does
Make Believe It's Your First Time
qualify as a Single release ?
Talk about your sleeper for radio....
Many also vote for Happy as Single material (even Richard in 1975 !),
so, Sailing On The Tide should be considered !
I had to pick one of the Solitaire messages to jump in here... GaryAlan, you won! :wink:

We've all reminisced about hearing new Carpenters music, the first time you hear that voice sing a melody... and when the song is right, (a personal choice, I know...), it can be miraculous. Such was the case that day in June when I purchased Horizon and gave it my first listen.... and the first song on side two played.

The melody, the chorus, the triumphant arrangement.... I felt at that moment, aside from Only Yesterday, that was the best song on the album, and certainly should have been THE next single. I wrote the fan club, I requested it hourly, I bought the single even when I owned the album.... It's just a majestic recording. IMHO....

Back in the day, I had zero clue about the Sedaka crisis, I just assumed it was the heat of the summer and people wanted a groove instead of a reflective rock ballad. But there were no additional summery fun tunes on Horizon from which to choose, so..... oops....

Back in the day, I was a more than a little P/O'd at the chart performance - but I assume had it not been released, we'd have all been stating that it was a missed single opportunity as I still say 'Let Me Be The One', 'You' & 'I Just Fall In Love Again' were.

Sidebar: Back in the day, I was mystified that Top of The World and I Won't Last A Day Without You were released well after their respective albums were yesterday's news... But soon after, I was delighted that we had another number one on our hands, and certainly, at the end of the day, aside from Goofus, I don't think I'd change much of the actual releases as they were offered. (With the exception of adding the aforementioned three songs)

Image - schmimage. The die was cast on that front... And really, who cares now...? I loved them then / I love them now! That said, had Karen lived, I feel 100% certain that they'd have eventually recorded some Disney movie theme song - or a standards album like Natalie Cole - and it would have brought them (finally) another wave of the popular & critical acceptance they deserved....

But she didn't. And that is a terrible shame for her, her family, her friends and naturally, the fans who so loved her intimate vocal performances. So - to get back to the essence of this thread - I'd love to have another new song out.
Not quite sure if it needs to be a single, or some alternate promotional vehicle to herald a 50th anniversary album.

Finally, GaryAlan's observation on Make Believe It's Your First Time has me thinking quite a bit about Voice of the Heart. After all is said and done, I am not sure it needed a single either! If I had a time machine and worked at A & M, I may have suggested a double album consisting of a greatest hits disc and then a disc of the newer material. It could still have been called Voice of the Heart... But radio may have had a nostalgic bone and played more of the standards to promote the album, and those who purchased the album would have been reworded with all of these unreleased tracks that were such a gift at the time.

Sorry for droning on and on.... I think I answered about a dozen responses in one post... Sorry Gary! :)
 
The melody, the chorus, the triumphant arrangement.... I felt at that moment, aside from Only Yesterday, that was the best song on the album, and certainly should have been THE next single. I wrote the fan club, I requested it hourly, I bought the single even when I owned the album.... It's just a majestic recording. IMHO....

Barry, I applaud you for making such great effort at the grass-roots level. I feel like I was such a passive, lazy fan at the time... I wasn't even aware of the fan club until a couple of years later. (I guess I wasn't Googling back then....)

But you make some terrific points: no droning, just astute analysis, anecdotes, and feelings. I salute you!
 
Summing up, given that we've gone gloriously off-topic. Thanks for a great and wide-ranging thread!

--It's nice to see the "Solitaire" contingent make their case. I love Karen's vocal here, as it updates her incredible (and possibly unique) skill at reeling off descending melodies in her lower range (first showcased in "Crescent Noon"). But the song did not light up our Top 20 poll in a manner similar to what happened when it was the followup single to "Only Yesterday." It is just a bit too lugubrious, which is a quality that lingers over the HORIZON LP just enough to keep it from being a "go-to" LP despite the production values.

--I care about the image, because it continues to plague the C's overall reception in music history. While I agree that being resigned to such a fate is probably the only realistic position to take, I don't want to be realistic about it--I want the world to quit putting Richard and Karen down for not being scuzzy, trashing hotel rooms, and being "transgressive." I think there should be some effort made to address this, especially given that I think everyone agrees with Gary's comments about Karen's voice and persona. It's as if the tragedy itself locks in the earlier image as an ongoing punishment for all that early success...talk about vicious circles!

--While Ed makes a good point about some lyrical klunkiness in the chorus of "Road Ode," it still seems minor to me...and the song's strengths are more than compensatory, as evidenced by the Top 20 and Non-45 polls done here earlier. It's a rare track that combines nocturnal shadings, driving chorus, unusual rock dynamics, and a superb, straight-ahead, no frills vocal that covers all of the singer's approaches to singing the way "Road Ode" does. And Richard has some great moments on it as well.

--Gary's point about tracks with depth vs. lightweight ditties has some merit, and it does showcase the increasing difficulties the C's faced as the world of music became more convulsive and sexual as the 70s unfolded, but do remember that it's the depth of emotion in those "lightweight ditties" which Karen supplied that made them into songs that topped the charts--and that still have the same emotional power almost half-a-century later.
 
Of course, I should reiterate I am not totally anti- Make Believe It's Your First Time
(that is, the VOH version).
Be that as it may, how an album gets shelved (Karen's),
yet one song from it gets re-recorded for the next Carpenters' album (with a lyrical addition, too),
then shelved again (from MIA) only to re-appear on the
1983 posthumous album--and, as lead Single--
stretches the limitations of my patience.

The solo version was--and remains--perfectly fine !

Karen Carpenter and Piano....Phil Ramone got that one absolutely correct !

Lord knows, we got the same (again and again and again)
with From This Moment On...that is, Karen and only a piano.
(Palladium LP...Tonight Show...1980 outttake....)
 
It's nice to see the "Solitaire" contingent make their case. But the song did not light up our Top 20 poll in a manner similar to what happened when it was the followup single to "Only Yesterday." It is just a bit too lugubrious, which is a quality that lingers over the HORIZON LP just enough to keep it from being a "go-to" LP despite the production values.

--I care about the image, because it continues to plague the C's overall reception in music history. While I agree that being resigned to such a fate is probably the only realistic position to take, I don't want to be realistic about it--I want the world to quit putting Richard and Karen down for not being scuzzy, trashing hotel rooms, and being "transgressive." I think there should be some effort made to address this, especially given that I think everyone agrees with Gary's comments about Karen's voice and persona. It's as if the tragedy itself locks in the earlier image as an ongoing punishment for all that early success...talk about vicious circles!

--While Ed makes a good point about some lyrical klunkiness in the chorus of "Road Ode," it still seems minor to me...and the song's strengths are more than compensatory, as evidenced by the Top 20 and Non-45 polls done here earlier. It's a rare track that combines nocturnal shadings, driving chorus, unusual rock dynamics, and a superb, straight-ahead, no frills vocal that covers all of the singer's approaches to singing the way "Road Ode" does. And Richard has some great moments on it as well.

--Gary's point about tracks with depth vs. lightweight ditties has some merit, and it does showcase the increasing difficulties the C's faced as the world of music became more convulsive and sexual as the 70s unfolded, but do remember that it's the depth of emotion in those "lightweight ditties" which Karen supplied that made them into songs that topped the charts--and that still have the same emotional power almost half-a-century later.
With all respect, wasn't that Top 20 poll calculated only a few days after the thread opened? From memory, it didn't give many people a chance to respond. It was done very well, mind you, with all the percentages, etc. (Or is that a different poll that I'm thinking of?)

A poll responded to by only the handful of fans who log on here isn't going to be a definitive poll on which to judge a song's worth or merits.
 
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I care about the image, because it continues to plague the C's overall reception in music history. While I agree that being resigned to such a fate is probably the only realistic position to take, I don't want to be realistic about it--I want the world to quit putting Richard and Karen down for not being scuzzy, trashing hotel rooms, and being "transgressive." I think there should be some effort made to address this, especially given that I think everyone agrees with Gary's comments about Karen's voice and persona. It's as if the tragedy itself locks in the earlier image as an ongoing punishment for all that early success...talk about vicious circles!
I may have over-simplified with my image smimage comment! :wink:
I do care about their image, in as much as I would love for the rest of the world to recognize their impeccable contribution to the music scene, whether everyone loves their music or not... To that end, I'd like to finally see them in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.... Has this site ever launched a campaign with that objective?
I bought recently and am the proud wearer of a Carpenters T Shirt, and I am amazed at how many folks look and nod, or smile, in some sort of positive manner - when they see that logo at the grocery or the park, gym, etc...
In many ways, I believe that the squeaky clean image thing and the anorexia identification are ever so slowly taking a back seat to the beautiful music factor - in the more recent several years... Perhaps, the Christmas music coming out loud and proud yearly, is a great way to move the needle... That alone may be successfully shifting the Carpenters and their music into more of a "classic" perception - comparable to the true and lasting greats like the Sinatra's, the Nat King Cole's and the Ella's.... - which in the grand scheme of things, ain't too bad....
 
With all respect, wasn't that Top 20 poll calculated only a few days after the thread opened? From memory, it didn't give many people a chance to respond. It was done very well, mind you, with all the percentages, etc. (Or is that a different poll that I'm thinking of?)

A poll responded to by only the handful of fans who log on here isn't going to be a definitive poll on which to judge a song's worth or merits.

If you go and take a look at the two poll threads ("Top 20 songs" and "Top Non-Singles"), you'll see that they spanned a a couple of months in time and the results for each were updated on several occasions. Each of the polls had 20-25 participants from this board--though certainly not everyone who is here, as is also often the case with the polls that are put up by the moderators.

By no means do I consider them "definitive," but I do think that they tell us a good bit more than my opinion, or yours, or any individual's here. As far as what a larger group of folks might think--well, that would certainly be interesting, but who better to call upon than the highly dedicated, knowledgeable (and opinionated!) folks who hang out here? The results of their poll do strike me as being something several cuts above what might be gotten from something more "random" and "scientific."

I may have over-simplified with my image smimage comment! :wink:
I do care about their image, in as much as I would love for the rest of the world to recognize their impeccable contribution to the music scene, whether everyone loves their music or not... To that end, I'd like to finally see them in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.... Has this site ever launched a campaign with that objective?
I bought recently and am the proud wearer of a Carpenters T Shirt, and I am amazed at how many folks look and nod, or smile, in some sort of positive manner - when they see that logo at the grocery or the park, gym, etc...
In many ways, I believe that the squeaky clean image thing and the anorexia identification are ever so slowly taking a back seat to the beautiful music factor - in the more recent several years... Perhaps, the Christmas music coming out loud and proud yearly, is a great way to move the needle... That alone may be successfully shifting the Carpenters and their music into more of a "classic" perception - comparable to the true and lasting greats like the Sinatra's, the Nat King Cole's and the Ella's.... - which in the grand scheme of things, ain't too bad....

Glad to hear about the response you get with the Carpenters T-shirt, Barry! And no negativity intended towards you--I think we all feel as though we have to sublimate our feelings about how the C's are casually belittled by those who still follow some strange pseudo-ideological backlash that should've been buried after the 70s. I just think of my old music critic collaborator from that time frame who still endorses the absurd gradings that the RS Record Guide foisted off on the C's catalogue as if it was bubble-gum music akin to the Archies. Makes my blood boil!!

As for the R&R Hall of Fame, it would be phenomenal if those jokers would induct the C's in 2019--exactly fifty years after they first signed with A&M. (Off topic: I also think they should induct The Shangri-Las, especially while the wonderful Weiss sisters are still with us.) And I hope that when they get to the live music portion of the show, they bring up a top guitar cat and let him wail on Tony Peluso's "Goodbye to Love" solo!

"Not rock? Take THAT!!" :b-drums:
 
If you go and take a look at the two poll threads ("Top 20 songs" and "Top Non-Singles"), you'll see that they spanned a a couple of months in time and the results for each were updated on several occasions. Each of the polls had 20-25 participants from this board--though certainly not everyone who is here, as is also often the case with the polls that are put up by the moderators.

By no means do I consider them "definitive," but I do think that they tell us a good bit more than my opinion, or yours, or any individual's here. As far as what a larger group of folks might think--well, that would certainly be interesting, but who better to call upon than the highly dedicated, knowledgeable (and opinionated!) folks who hang out here? The results of their poll do strike me as being something several cuts above what might be gotten from something more "random" and "scientific."



Glad to hear about the response you get with the Carpenters T-shirt, Barry! And no negativity intended towards you--I think we all feel as though we have to sublimate our feelings about how the C's are casually belittled by those who still follow some strange pseudo-ideological backlash that should've been buried after the 70s. I just think of my old music critic collaborator from that time frame who still endorses the absurd gradings that the RS Record Guide foisted off on the C's catalogue as if it was bubble-gum music akin to the Archies. Makes my blood boil!!

As for the R&R Hall of Fame, it would be phenomenal if those jokers would induct the C's in 2019--exactly fifty years after they first signed with A&M. (Off topic: I also think they should induct The Shangri-Las, especially while the wonderful Weiss sisters are still with us.) And I hope that when they get to the live music portion of the show, they bring up a top guitar cat and let him wail on Tony Peluso's "Goodbye to Love" solo!

"Not rock? Take THAT!!" :b-drums:
Ah, that clarifies it. I think I was thinking of a different poll.
 
Has anyone told Ella Fitzgerald, Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston and Barbra Streisand yet?

I am "officially" letting the two living legends in the group know. :)

Aretha, you rock in the R&B world. Babs, I like your voice but all too often, it leaves me cold as if you distant yourself from what you sing about. Ella, you were wonderful. Whitney, at your prime you stunned me. Everyone- That said, no one compares to Karen in the voice department.

Consider them told. :wink:
 
I am "officially" letting the two living legends in the group know. :)

Aretha, you rock in the R&B world. Babs, I like your voice but all too often, it leaves me cold as if you distant yourself from what you sing about. Ella, you were wonderful. Whitney, at your prime you stunned me. Everyone- That said, no one compares to Karen in the voice department.

Consider them told. :wink:
Lol. The only one amongst them I don't like THAT much is Babs.

I think the other three, at their best, were up with Karen, at her best, but in different fields / genres. I love Ella and particularly like Aretha. But Karen is my personal favourite amongst them.
 
If you go and take a look at the two poll threads ("Top 20 songs" and "Top Non-Singles"), you'll see that they spanned a a couple of months in time and the results for each were updated on several occasions. Each of the polls had 20-25 participants from this board--though certainly not everyone who is here, as is also often the case with the polls that are put up by the moderators.

Don, I found the "Top Non-Singles" thread (Favorite 10 Non-Singles ), created by @Mark-T, with statistical analysis provided by you (and we do appreciate both creation of the topic and the statistical analysis). But the "Top Non-Singles" thread would obviously exclude "Solitaire."

It took me awhile, but I also found the "Top 20 songs" aka "Carpenters in 20 songs..." thread (Carpenters In 20 Songs... ), created by @Must Hear This Album, with statistical analysis again painstakingly provided by you! And at your last tally, "Solitaire" was in a logjam with 4 other songs, vying to get into the final 2 spots in the overall Top 20 songs.

I found both of these topics to be quite interesting and fun! I will add that sometimes there is such a flurry of activity here (a great thing!), with threads being quickly pushed down the list of recent "Normal Discussions," that it can be easy to miss certain threads of interest. So perhaps some members, particularly some of our newer members, might like to weigh in on those topics as well...

So kudos again to @Mark-T and @Must Hear This Album for creating these particular threads!

And kudos again to you (@Don Malcolm) for your great work in analyzing the data!
 
Here is another thought,
Why wasn't Richard and Donna professionally recorded at The Hollywood Bowl ?
I mean, this would have been a fantastic "official" release:
 
Here is another thought,
Why wasn't Richard and Donna professionally recorded at The Hollywood Bowl ?
I mean, this would have been a fantastic "official" release:


I never liked this version. Donna sounds like she's being strangled at certain points in the song, the tempo is too slow and to my ears Richard fluffed the intro, as the piano came in a fraction early.
 
^^And, you bring in good points to ponder, Stephen !
I can only add that--for my tastes--
an imperfect live performance is better than no performance !
So, yes, in this respect (the Bowl Performance),
as with many " live " performances,
I am not in search of perfection--as I might find on a studio recording--
I want " warts and all" !

This is where I differ with Richard Carpenter, also:
a live performance need not replicate a studio recording, I want spontaneity ,
even if rough around the edges !
 
^^An imperfect live performance is better than no performance ! A live performance need not replicate a studio recording, I want spontaneity ,
even if rough around the edges !
Although I like to hear as close to perfection as possible in the lead-vocals department for acts such as Carpenters. And Karen often delivered this!
 
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