HERB ALPERT'S NINTH: Comments and poll

What is your favorite song on the album?

  • A Banda

    Votes: 13 17.6%
  • My Heart Belongs to Daddy

    Votes: 4 5.4%
  • The Trolley Song

    Votes: 3 4.1%
  • The Happening

    Votes: 5 6.8%
  • "Bud"

    Votes: 11 14.9%
  • Love So Fine

    Votes: 12 16.2%
  • The Love Nest

    Votes: 5 6.8%
  • With a Little Help From My Friends

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • Flea Bag

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • Cowboys and Indians

    Votes: 7 9.5%
  • Carmen

    Votes: 12 16.2%

  • Total voters
    74
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I've been out of commission for a long time, and I'm late on this, but wanted to add my two cents anyway.

NINTH has to be one of my all time favorite albums by Herb & The Tijuana Brass. You know, certain things remind you of the happiness of childhood. When I hear NINTH, I'm taken back to my youth. A time when the Brass was at the height of their popularity. They were on radio and TV, appeared in print ads and did live concerts. Heck, they were an integral part of the '60s music scene. Great memories, all.

The song I selected as my favorite is "Love So Fine" because I like the way it swells into the bridge. The ending is sensational, too. Whenever I think of Herb and The Brass, I think of a few key songs, "Love So Fine" being one of them, along with the entire WHAT NOW MY LOVE, GOING PLACES and BEAT OF THE BRASS albums. The songs, the sounds of my childhood. It's a great feeling, you know? :)
 
I've waited quite a while to vote on this one because I've always felt that I didn't give NINTH enough of a chance when I first heard it, so I wanted to make sure I gave every song a chance.

Finally had to settle on "Bud," partly because I've always liked the song, but knowing the story behind it makes it stand out even more. I've got new appreciation now for lots of the other songs on the album. The only song I really don't like all that much is "With a Little Help...." you really can't top the Beatles version of that one.

My other picks: "My Heart Belongs to Daddy" (I always thought this should have been the opening track, and "A Banda" should have opened side 2); "Cowboys and Indians," "Flea Bag" and of course "Love So Fine," probably my second-favorite on the album.
 
Love So Fine is also my favorite song. I love the arrangement, it sounds a lot like the arrangements Burt Bacharach used to do.

My top five are:

1. Love So Fine
2. A Banda
3. The Love Nest
4. Bud
5. My heart belongs to daddy

It's probably my favorite TJB album, along with "The Brass Are Comin'" and "S.R.O.".
 
I'd like to post a short review I posted over at "Collectors Choice" re: HA 9th

This is one of the '60s best albums. The artwork is great and only hints at the great music within. Herb Alpert is one of America's National Treasures. He not only led one of the all-time greatest musical groups, but co-owned the A&M record label, a musical stable featuring many talented artists, such as Sting, Janet Jackson, Joe Cocker, Sergio Mendes and Brasil 66, The Carpenters, Procol Harum, Peter Frampton, Styx, The Sandpipers, Bill Medley, The Baja Marimba Band, Liza Minelli, Lani Hall, etc. Mr. Alpert currently is a painter, and sculptor. He is also a philanthropist, and sponsor of upcoming young talent. More than this, he is America's quintessential musical rennaisance man. On "H.A. 9th" a string section complements many of the songs. The musical "tour-de-force" is Bizet's "Carmen". The arrangement and execution is flawless, brilliant and will blow you away! Viva Herb Alpert, and God Bless America.
 
Wait, it's a Sunday night type album.
Cowboys and Indians is my favorite, this week!

According to the forum poll, A Banda, Bud, Carmen,
Love So Fine and The Love Nest would all be great on a
“Tijuana Brass” anthology. Though My Heart Belongs to
Daddy would probably be included in my opinion.
Herb and the folks at Shout Factory should get our
opinion on a essential collection.
 
If the family chooses to watch another syndicated re run, I‘m out of there, and enjoying another TJB re-master. Fortunately, most of these albums clock in at 30 minutes or less, so I don’t really need to skip anything. Unless I get started too late. So, if there was one song I had to lose due to time restraints it would be, With a little help from my friends, the Beatles version is a classic. Thus, putting the TJB in a less than flattering light.


If you had to skip one, what would it be?
 
Ninth is a very nice album. Favorite cut is "The Happening". From the start, I've been drawn to it by Nick Ceroli's style with that classic kick bass. He knows right where every knock belongs. If you turn off the right channel and listen solely to Nick, it's great. Listened to it about a half dozen times on the way to work today just to hear Nick. "Bud" is a tie for favorites on the album. It's an extraordinary example of not needing lyrics to capture emotion.

tom
 
I love all the TJB albums-but this one is on my bottom tier.I felt the album had a very letargic feel to it.I did like TROLLET SONG-Another nice addition to Herb's "haunting"solos.He had a great talent for changing familiar tempos around.Also liked"HELP from my FREINDS".Otherwise found the album a let-down,but still pleasant and musical-All the TJB albums have merit.
 
For me, I like all albums starting with What Now My Love to The Brass Are Comin the same. Each album has highlights for me, but I love them all, I can't pick one. That said, there are a lot of highlights on this album. I chose Carmen. I also like Trolley Song, My Heart Belongs to Daddy, Love Nest, and Cowboys And Indians. Those are my favorite tracks. But like most Tijuana Brass records, the whole record is great. I never skip a track.
 
If Sounds Like caught the TjB at full throttle, the follow-up, Herb’s Alpert’s Ninth, is its benign, first cousin – so much so, that the record could nearly be called "Sounds Un-Like"…

By a considerable margin, the LP sports the most innovatively artistic TjB cover art, while temporarily shielding the listener from – at its least impressive – an uninspired band sluggishly prodding through equally uninspired material.

Even giving the LP a cursory listen, there are many immediate auditory elements that support this notion relative to the preceding 4 excellent LPs: (1) One of the hallmarks of TjB LPs were the variety of instruments – GP/WNML/SRO sustaining a highpoint of sorts. There is no instrumental variety on Ninth. Without exception, each song features the same orchestration (which, incidentally, means trombone on every song – probably the only TjB LP to do so); with the exclusion of marimba/vibes (featured on every track – the first TjB LP to date to do so), there are no obvious contributions from sessionmen – save the use of a few strings, one note from a flute (wonder how much that cost?), and, perhaps, the use of another trumpet player in one section. (2) Regarding the use of strings…for the first time Herb overtly employs additional instruments for the sole purpose of sweetening the sound…or to “fill out” the sound: on every song they’re used much in the same way – with little-to-no conspicuous, intrinsic musical quality. (Even a perfunctory listen strongly suggests the string parts were afterthoughts.) (3) No TjB members are featured songwriters and only 4 “originals” are offered – the fewest ever on any TjB LP to date….and half of these are undistinguished pieces. (4) Virtually all the arrangements lack the glimmer and innovation that had characterized the LPs to date.

The mouth is ultra-sensitive to minute alterations of its station. Unlike fingers and hands that are the recipients of inherent activity via day-to-day living (akin to how walking benefits a runner), there are no typical “mouth-related” activities that prove beneficial in aiding embouchure development for a trumpeter. (And “development it most certainly it – as by its delicate physical nature no embouchure sustains a permanent state; it’s always a dynamic state…hence the good-day/bad day verbiage common in all brass player lexicon.) The specificity of performing such an action is easily lost when not routinely accomplished. Personal conjecture has it that Herb’s new short marcato playing style didn’t afford proper embouchure development – principally speaking, the necessary need to sustain proper lip vibration – hence, his tone immediately began to suffer the consequences. At least that’s how I hear it on this record. As I’ve written before, it normally takes 5-10 years to produce a tone of skilled quality – it can be lost in a matter of only a few months of assorted adverse circumstances.

The only continuously redeeming factor on the LP is Nick’s drumming. The recording engineer wisely miked him close and mixed him up front…probably because he’s the only member besides Julius who is injecting any real life into the material. In fact, as a pop drumming LP, it can’t be beat: just play the left channel and dig all that subtle snare/tom/cymbal work that heretofore was not as audible. Nick, with his polyrhythmic technical details, easily outshines all other TjB members on Ninth.

John’s wonderful guitar work is virtually absent – rather he’s presented in a fairly subdued manner that becomes quite predictable after just a couple listens which is a shame. Lou’s piano is mixed way back like on SRO/WNML. Pat, the least impressive TjB member to my ears, continues in much the same manner…prodding along playing I-V on nearly every arrangement. (I don’t mean to hammer on Pat – it’s just that electric bass guitar playing in mid ‘60s pop music underwent a revolution – spearheaded by the likes of Paul McCartney, John Entwhistle and many others…it just seems that all of this was lost on both Herb (as an arranger) and Pat.) To this day, one of the great TjB mysteries is why Herb never pushed Pat to develop into a more imaginative and assertive bassist. I can only envision what power TjB “bass + drums” could’ve been had Pat played to the equal of Nick.) Then there’s Herb’s tone. As a trumpet player, it sounds dull, dry and lifeless – as though he’s lost his embouchure flexibility. In fact, the quality is not unlike what any trumpeter sounds like devoid of necessary warm up (it “sounds like” Herb was locked into a sort of “warm-up purgatory”). Additionally, his tone doesn’t sound properly supported – like he’s wanting to project a tone with a smaller volume of air but devoid of adequate support. I really think he’s experimenting with his sound by trying to get a muffled quality. A few notes on Carmen are as brilliant and bright as anything on GP (if indeed that is Herb playing on that fragment), while a song like Love So Fine displays nearly awful tone quality with its near comatose timbre. Unlike any previous TjB LP, on Ninth, his horn is mostly close-miked on many selections, with no reverb – yielding a flat, dry, un-emotive sound.

As for the lack of interesting arrangements, conjecture would have it that Herb just gave skeletal instructions to the TjB…allowing them each to develop their own part on the fly (which is why Julius - a top-rated, in-demand sessionman - excels on this LP). In the end, Ninth comes off more akin to a TjB demo – with Herb having a very off day…

1967 was a heck of a year in US/UK pop. Perhaps most importantly, 1967 was the confirmation of "passing the pop torch" from one era to another. By this time, it was expected that all pop artists would make a seizable gesture toward incorporating the “now” sounds – (less they risk losing their record contracts!). The TjB were unique in that they straddled both sides during 1965-67: be it Sinatra or Zappa – figuratively – fans of both Franks were TjB fans (even the Beatles couldn’t claim such widespread zeal.) With Ninth, a decision was made to not follow through with the new music as signaled on SL. This was obvious by not better utilizing music from their new ace songwriters (particularly, Boyce & Hart whose music was ripe for TjB exploitation). Where Ninth could have been truly a breakthrough LP, given SL as a signpost of things to come and keeping the band at pace with Booker T & The MG's and further confounding all the copycats - instead, Herb decided to not break with The Formula set forth on WC&OD (the very formula that he nearly broke on SL). In 20/20 hindsight, Ninth should have been loaded with the new music of Emitt Rhodes, Boyce & Hart, and Roger Nichols; along side Sol, Julius and John.

In the world of ‘60s pace-setting pop, keeping fresh and agile was paramount – this is why EVERY Beatles LP is distinct from its predecessor and why they never followed any (obvious) formula. Ninth was a missed golden opportunity to assert new pace-setting TjB credentials.

A Banda. Much of the foregoing criticism doesn’t really apply to what is yet another great opener, and – it turns out – a major tease. The fade-in horn ensemble is reminiscent of a marching band (note how Nick ever so subtly marks the beginning of the A section with a simple cymbal ping). The feel of the song is very out of place on the LP and I wonder if it was recorded earlier. (Sure would fit in nicely on SRO.)

My Heart. Unlike the previous 4 TjB LPs – where arrangement variety and performance vitality are generally a consistent attribute – this song is representative of much of the balance of Ninth: understated and languid…to the point of lethargy at times. Herb’s tone, particularly here, is a difficult listen: unresponsive and “flat” sounding in its timbre. The arrangement is not too bad, actually - being one of the more memorable numbers; but the performance just doesn’t lift it much from mediocrity.

Trolley Song. Not that the LP is full of dogs…far from it, of course. Here, for instance, Herb’s ballad take on this “up” number is of interest. Yet, I can’t figure out if Herb’s reading is plaintive and lonely – or uninspiring and indifferent; either way his styling complements the mournful feel of the arrangement. Too, it’s nice to have a simple ballad, simply played. (Listen to how Herb is running out of air on the last note.)

The Happening. Isn’t. Seriously, the intro with its trumpet/trombone brassy unisons puts it into an SL mode…but it quickly resolves into something barely above happy-trumpet filler.

“Bud”. Artistically, nothing on Ninth is remotely close to this hauntingly beautiful piece. The romantic feel is pure WNML (and for the first time, one curiously begins to long for “the good ol’ days…”). The structure is AABAB – with A = 14-, and B = 8-bar segments. Each B features a 2-bar preface and concludes with a long release. The outro could probably be considered a C section. Like The Shadow Of Your Smile, the fade on this song appears inherent to the arrangement. Note those strumming-guitar voicings throughout the B section that build the tension. The song bares no resemblance to any previous Bud Colman TjB offerings – so I wonder just how this song came to be. It’s always difficult to listen to a writer’s last (unfinished) song. A+

Love So Fine. As a trumpet player, this is a painful listen. There is something very wrong with Herb’s tone. Period. (Based on the tone quality, it’s doubtful any anonymous trumpet player could submit such a recording to a label and have it sponsored for release.) As Cap’n D proposed on the Sounds Like thread, such a tone/timbre – devoid of warmth and detail – is representative of an embouchure problem at hand – specifically regarding the lips not freely vibrating in the mouthpiece. And before you send me a ton of hate mail, play Love So Fine back-to-back with And The Angels Sing…just to compare trumpet tone and technique (from the road, it’s two different players). Too bad, too, because it’s an excellent song – the B section in particular reveals Herb’s first foray into genuine California sunshine pop!

(As for the artistic argument – “he wanted that sound” – of course it’s valid…I mean it obviously met Herb’s Good Housekeeping Seal Of Approval, nowamsain? Ornette Coleman had no issue releasing violin and trumpet recordings that obviously indicated a lack of traditional technical competence (for which Miles Davis had some unprintable critical words!!); the same could be said for “art-rock” groups like the Velvet Underground. Yet, with simple (or “deceptively simple”) TjB music, technical skill vulnerabilities are much more naked.)

Love Nest. I like the nuevo bossa rhythm. One of the better performances of the LP – thanks mostly to Julius’ animated playing in a few spots. Easily the best group performance on side 2.

With A Little. This is kinda cool. I like the somber trombone and cello counter parts – against the simplest of trumpeting technical execution (ala Trolly song). The four-to-the-bar auto-pilot guitar gets tiring though…In absence of John’s guitar part, this would flow much nicer. Nick’s swing-march rhythm was a genius stroke. (Dang, Nick knows just how to break up the rhythms!)

Flea Bag. A nice intro…the only piece that sounds like it was written with strings in mind. Otherwise, Julius’ song is fairly undistinguished – though it is ripe with a melodic quirkiness and an odd chord progression that, by this time, have become representative of TjB original material. One can tell it is pure TjB after just a few bars – these are kinda TjB songs that the rip-off artists tried to emulate – right down to the gay/fruity C-section trombone. The odd structure is ABABC ABC AB with A and C = 9-bar and B = 6-bar sections. Pretty wild!

Cowboys. Sol issues easily his weakest song since El Garbanzo. I like the “yip” in the middle of the song – discounting A Banda there’s nary a “yeah” on this LP – quite a change from Sounds Like.

Carmen. The LP loosely tries to catapult to a big finish with a new fancy-schmancy show-stopper. To my ears it’s a novelty that – while suitable for live audiences or TV spectaculars – doesn’t wear well on LP …like when you’re home alone at 2AM smoking a cigarette in the dark waiting for Mrs. Pauls’ Fishsticks to warm up [425F @ 20min]. I can’t believe this was issued as a 45 – like anyone would play this “over and over”. That the major “styles” exhumed for the main melody are all from 3-5 LPs back speaks volumes about “fresh” ideas…which tacitly sums up Ninth.

All of this amounts to a substandard TjB LP – particularly on the heels of the excellent Sounds Like where the group seemed poised to go head-to-head with the increasingly hip instrumental group, Booker T & The MG’s. However, Ninth was a retreat. Unvarying orchestrations suggest little thought went into the arrangements; the trumpet, too, is simple and spartan – at times it sounds tired and/or indifferent. No matter how rose-coloured one’s glasses may be, Ninth is a disappointment relative to it’s unique and pacesetting predecessors. In fact, had the TjB legacy commenced with this LP – continuing through to its conclusion with The Beat Of The Brass – it’s arguable whether any of us would be here in such a forum…

-James
 
I'll say it again --- Herb's sound around this time was a result of not practicing a whole lot, it's that simple. I don't think there was any "artistic decision" involved. He simply sounds out of practice. And it's too bad, because as much as I enjoyed the previous analysis (or perhaps "over"-analysis) , I think "9th" is a damn fine album and production. And you can't really go crazy comparing tone quality over the years -- Miles had a different sound in 1965 than he did in 1958. Bottom line for me is , I still enjoy this recording today, even more so than I did in 1967.
 
rickster said:
I'll say it again --- Herb's sound around this time was a result of not practicing a whole lot, it's that simple. I don't think there was any "artistic decision" involved. He simply sounds out of practice.

He also sounds as if he was tired. With all of the touring and TV appearances - not to mention trying to keep A&M afloat at the time - there was no time for him to relax. But that's what it took back then to get where he is.



Capt. Bacardi
 
"Carmen" is still a great "name that tune" piece... :wink: It's neat to try and pick out the different TJB arrangement styles throughout this piece.
 
Herb has said (in various places) that he tried not to play the songs a lot before recording them, since that kept the sound more spontaneous. I suppose that, plus the grueling schedule he was on, would account for the laid-back nature of this album. Or it could be that Herb's style through this time was a product of the environment of the time. I have a feeling it was all three...if he sounds out of practice, he may have just not had the time!

This is a record that I appreciate more today than I did when it was first released although it's very true that it doesn't hold up to the greatness of GP or WNML. To me the only clunkers on it are "With a LIttle Help From My Friends" and "Trolley Song." "Carmen" is a fun medley of styles from the early hits but overall it hasn't aged as well for me as the rest of the album.
 
I think this album was aimede at a slightly different audience than some of the others. To me, it's always been kind of a cocktail party soundtrack than anything else. The sound had probably evolved about as far as it could, IMO.

This album has some old standards, like THE TROLLEY SONG, MY HEART BELONGS TO DADDY, THE LOVE NEST...and that type of song seems to stand out more here in this set. This album isn't the innovative tour-de-force that SOUNDS LIKE may have been, but that doesn't hold it back, IMO...I don't really see anybody resting on their laurels.

I always saw CARMEN as an homage to the earlier Brass era, kind of like Herb was saying "goodbye" to it.


Dan
 
Dan Bolton said:
...I think this album was aimede at a slightly different audience than some of the others... ...To me, it's always been kind of a cocktail party soundtrack than anything else. The sound had probably evolved about as far as it could...


I agree... But a very GOOD Cocktail Party indeed... Likewise, it was on the stregnth of songs like "Love So Fine" and "My Heart Belongs..." that I actually FIRST bought this album... And "With A Little Help From My Friends" sure is better than (or at least as much FUN as) "The Hokey Pokey"...!!! :laugh:



Dave
 
rickster said:
I'll say it again --- Herb's sound around this time was a result of not practicing a whole lot, it's that simple. I don't think there was any "artistic decision" involved. He simply sounds out of practice. And it's too bad, because as much as I enjoyed the previous analysis (or perhaps "over"-analysis) , I think "9th" is a damn fine album and production...

Agreed. Doubtful he was devoting an hour each day to Herbert L. Clarke's Technical Studies for the Cornet. Nevertheless, Herb has always been far more a stylist than a technician -- as Cap'n D has pointed out in other posts...and to my "trumpet-playing" ears he made a conscious change on Ninth -- involving sending a smaller volume of air through the horn. The Trolley Song, With A Little Help..., and Love So Fine all exhibit this to a tee. The reduced air flow minus adequate diaphragm support resulted in less lip vibration. I've tried this myself to approximate his tone -- and voila` I can play along with him on these songs and get very close to that same timbre!

As for the over-analysis! Yeah, I'm just a blowhard I know -- but, dangitall, if this music was so fascinating there'd be nothing to offer. (Seriously, I could probably write just as much discussing Flea Bag alone...as an arranger it's easy to get caught up in the details of interesting music.)

Happy Saturday

-James

In San Francisco bracing for the next storm...
 
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