Herb and... Chuck?

[Nathan Strum]

As I've been looking forward to the new reissues of Herb's albums, it strikes me as how incredibly lucky we are as fans that a) Herb owns all of his master recordings, and b) is actually in a position to be able to reissue them (and has the interest in doing so).

For a lot of other artists out there, the outlook isn't quite so cheery. Many artists' catalogs are spread out across multiple record labels, many of which don't seem to have any interest in reissuing their work (even as downloads).

So that leaves fans of their work scrounging around at ever-diminishing used record stores, or taking their chances online buying used LPs or expensive out-of-print or import CDs (some of which may be bootlegs).

The reason I bring this up is because lately I've been doing just that - tracking down some of the long out-of-print albums of someone who was at A&M for awhile - Chuck Mangione. (For my money, it's a crime that Tarantella has never been released on CD.)

Anyway... that search, plus re-listening to Herb and Hugh's collaborations, got me thinking: What would a Herb and Chuck collaboration have been like? I wonder if they ever considered it? Herb hit it big with Rise just a couple of years after Chuck did the same with Feels So Good (on A&M). They both composed music for the 1980 Olympics (Chuck in winter, Herb for the boycotted summer games). Certainly Herb and Hugh sounded incredible together, and Herb played at least one of Chuck's compositions (Legend of the One-eyed Sailor).

So, purely for the sake of discussion - what do you think a Herb Alpert/Chuck Mangione album would have been like? When would have been the best period in Herb's solo career for it? What style of Herb's or Chuck's work would have meshed well together?

And it also makes me wonder... with all of the recording Herb has done in the last few years, might they consider such a collaboration now?

I'd buy it.

 

[Rudy]

Some of Chuck's music is just a little too sleepy for what I would associate with Herb. His pre-A&M work on Mercury would IMHO have been fertile ground for some sort of collaboration or at least Herb doing a guest appearance on some of those larger ensemble recordings.

I could also imagine possibly some current-day collaboration, but it would really need something where they could feed off of each other. With the Masekela albums, I've felt it was more a case of the melding of Maskela's style, musical ideas and background into Herb's music. In other words, Masekela brought a major stylistic element to Herb's music, not just his horn. (And in a sense, the rhythmic/funky direction carried on in the days of Rise.) With Mangione though, it seems more like throwing two trumpet players together to see what comes out of it, and that wouldn't work--his "brand," if you will, has largely been a more easygoing "jazz lite" ever since joining A&M, with a few detours good and bad ("Diana D," anyone?) as he moved on. The only thing I could see working today would be to assemble the right combination of their jazz pals and cut an album together. Chuck can be a good jazz player when he puts his mind to it--his first records were in an bebop mindset both with and without his brother Gap. But the fans all want that "Feels So Good" vibe and at this stage of his career, if he's happiest keeping his fans pleased, then more power to him. I just don't see enough substance in that to fuel Herb's own creative urges.

 

[Bobberman]

I always enjoyed both Mangione's music as well as Herb's i often wondered what a Herb and Chuck collaboration would be like. And i would enjoy it after all Herb Covered "Legend of the One Eyed sailor". So it could have happened.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

I'm not sure an Alpert/Mangione collaboration would've been all that great for an entire album. Their styles are quite different. Maybe, as Rudy suggested, a single track such as "Legend" would work. Herb did mention that song inspired him to start recording again, and he did sign Mangione to A&M. But other than that it sounds as if it could be a snooze-fest.

As far as the Masekela collaboration goes, you have to remember that Herb was producing Letta Mbulu and was intrigued with the songs and rhythms of South Africa and wondered if he could make those sounds work for himself. It was a phone call to Stewart Levine for suggestions that changed things. Masekela just happened to be staying at Levine's home (Levine was producing Hugh at the time) and answered that phone call. Alpert thought about doing something with Masekela and they got together to talk about it. I remember Herb saying the idea was to have a musical dialogue between the two hornmen rather than a battle of the trumpets. Masekela's instincts were actually similar to Herb's, though Masekela said himself that he would play 1000 notes to get an idea across, whereas he learned from Herb that you can get the same idea across in 5 or 6 notes. They just seemed to compliment each other well, and that really came across on the studio album. If you listened to Masekela's earlier 70's albums like Introducing Hedzoleh Soundz, I Am Not Afraid and The Boy's Doin' It you can hear some similarities to what he would eventually do with Herb. It was really a natural fit. A Mangione collaboration would seem more of a contrived effort IMHO, and not as honest as the Masekela recording.

 

[Rudy]

I guess what I was saying is that Mangione doesn't give Herb much to work with. Nothing against Chuck, but my thinking is that Herb likes to stretch out, try new things continually, getting a challenge out of it, whereas Mangione is more or less set in his groove. Maybe having them guest on 8- or 16-bar solos on a track or two on each other's album(s) might be a treat, but like the Captain hints at, I can't see it working across an entire album. Now, if Mangione were back to scoring those large-scale pieces like he did during his Mercury years, writing or arranging specifically for Herb, that could work. Some of his best regarded recordings were on Mercury.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Yeah, it's like the success of Feels So Good ended up being more of a curse for Mangione than anything else. The albums after were less than inspiring - and downright awful once he went to Columbia. But I agree that those Mercury albums were far more creative, though he probably didn't eat as well at that time.

 

[David S]

I agree about Tarantella. Would love a digital remaster or CD of that.

 

[toeknee4bz]

Yeah, it's like the success of Feels So Good ended up being more of a curse for Mangione than anything else. The albums after were less than inspiring - and downright awful once he went to Columbia. But I agree that those Mercury albums were far more creative, though he probably didn't eat as well at that time.

I wouldn't necessarily call the Columbia albums "awful". Journey To A Rainbow (1983) and Eyes of the Veiled Temptress (1988) were both really good in their own way, and Love Notes (1982) was pretty decent as well carrying on the traditional Mangione style and structure. Granted, Disguise (1984) sounds extremely dated now, and [except for a couple of tracks] Save Tonight For Me (1986) was just downright abysmal, with it's heavy R&B influence and vocals which just didn't blend with Mangione's style at all.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

I guess we agree to disagree. I found Mangione's Columbia albums nothing more than trivial Muzak.

 

[David S]

This thread caused me to dial up "The Best of Chuck Mangione" (which is a compilation of Columbia stuff, with the exception of the inclusion of Feels So Good). I've always liked this and still do - rather enjoying the listen today. I always liked the Journey to a Rainbow album, from when it first came out. If I recall correctly, it has a track that served as the theme song for Larry King's first TV show (the one prior to his going to CNN). Watched the show because I was a fan of his Mutual radio program. Always have liked the tunes Sweet Butterfly and Long Hair Soulful. But sure would enjoy, as noted before, Tarantella. If I recall, someone has all or most of that on YouTube. Obviously probably not the best sound, but, alas, at least a listen.

 

[toeknee4bz]

I always liked the Journey to a Rainbow album, from when it first came out. If I recall correctly, it has a track that served as the theme song for Larry King's first TV show (the one prior to his going to CNN).

Yep. "Chaia's Theme" (from Journey To A Rainbow) was the theme song for the Larry King Show in 1983. Larry King's daughter is named Chaia.

 

[Bobberman]

I agree about Tarantella. Would love a digital remaster or CD of that.

I was fortunate to get a Needledrop CD Of Tarantella thanks to my radio connections our station where i do my show has the vinyl 2 Lp set in excellent shape and my generous boss ( station manager at the time) made a custom 2 cd needledrop version of the Album. I have a feeling that along with Main Squeeze ( which i also have a needledrop cd of) and a few others will most likely Never See the Light of day on CD or Digital Files. So if you can score any of these on clean vinyl and convert it digitally You will be Good To Go. In my opinion.