Karen Read Music?

[David A]

As a relatively new person to this forum, apologies if this has been answered elsewhere (or the answer is common knowledge).

Is it definitively known if Karen knew how to read music? I assume so, but haven't found anything that confirms the fact. Something I've just always been curious about.

 

[tomswift2002]

As far as I am aware she did, as she was able to play both drums and bass guitar, along with singing.

 

[David A]

Thanks! I'm sure she did as well, would be interesting to confirm it somehow.

 

[Eyewire]

According to Richard on the official Carpenters website, Karen was a music major in college, so I think it's reasonably safe to assume that she was able to read music:

Carpenters Fans Ask-Richard Answers Archive

 

[David A]

Thanks Eyewire, appreciate the link and info.

 

[Another Son]

Thanks Eyewire, appreciate the link and info.

I'm sure that Richard stated somewhere that Karen could read music. Also, the recorded section of 'Let Me Be The One' where she sings, 'When I figure out where the rest of the melody is, I'll sing it' suggests that she could. (I gather she was following a lead sheet at the time). Actually, that points to something amazing. I wonder whether the vocal for 'Let Me Be The One' was more or less the first take, just as the incredible vocal for 'Superstar' was. I think that Karen's performance on 'Let Me Be the One' is superb. We know that many of the perfect vocals released since Karen's death were work leads - loose run-throughs captured the first time she recorded the songs. On 'Trying to Get the Feeling', for example, you hear the lead sheet being turned over as she reads along while singing. It's amazing that she could sing so perfectly when she obviously didn't know the song very well and was actually reading the words and music, (I assume). Some of the concert footage also shows that she could perform a complete song perfectly 'live', (e.g. pretty much the complete 1971 BBC concert programme; especially 'Superstar' and 'For All We Know'). This all seems to go against what Toni Tennille said in the quote that was discussed recently- something about Karen and Richard almost recording every note individually, or some such. Of course, we do also know that Karen could sometimes hit the wrong notes and be off pitch, just like anybody else, as the recent 'live' video of 'Touch Me When We're Dancing' and some of the out-takes from her solo sessions, such as 'Midnight', show. Obviously, recordings can be 'tweaked'. But Karen's ability to at times turn out top-notch performances whilst seemingly reading the melody line and words of an unfamiliar song from a music sheet is almost mind-boggling.

 

[David A]

[SNIP] This all seems to go against what Toni Tennille said in the quote that was discussed recently- something about Karen and Richard almost recording every note individually, or some such. Of course, we do also know that Karen could sometimes hit the wrong notes and be off pitch, just like anybody else, as the recent 'live' video of 'Touch Me When We're Dancing' and some of the out-takes from her solo sessions, such as 'Midnight', show. Obviously, recordings can be 'tweaked'. But Karen's ability to at times turn out top-notch performances whilst seemingly reading the melody line and words of an unfamiliar song from a music sheet is almost mind-boggling.

I didn't see that thread or discussion of what Toni Tennille said, but I wonder how she would know? I know her then-husband Daryl Dragon played some keyboards on her solo album but had no idea they were somehow otherwise connected, musically. Maybe she was exaggerating for effect; how precise they were in the studio.

I suggest Karen's ability to sing those work leads that sound like final takes, stems from how easy singing was for her. How effortless it was. Karen said something to the effect of "I open my mouth and the sound comes out" (when she was asked how she prepares her voice for singing). Incredible innate talent. In my humble opinion, I think one of the reasons Karen considered herself a "drummer who sings" was because of the hard work and effort it required of her, to learn the drums and play them well. The voice was much easier and came naturally.

 

[Another Son]

I didn't see that thread or discussion of what Toni Tennille said. Maybe she was exaggerating for effect; how precise they were in the studio.

I agree that Toni Tennille may have been exaggerating for effect. Also, what I wrote was also just paraphrasing what I remember of the quote. Of course, I'm sure that Karen did sometimes re-record sections of songs when her vocal didn't quite go as planned. In fact, you can actually hear an edit in 'Sweet, Sweet Smile'. At least, I THINK you can. I think it's near the beginning when it sounds as if Karen sings, 'I gotta see your sweet, sweet smile' in one take and 'every day' has been edited on in a separate take. I noticed that back in 1977/ 78 when I first heard the song. Of course, I could be wrong. By the way, I am also a big fan of Toni Tennille's singing. What a big voice - a smooth, rich, warm, deep voice. Big singing voice. Big talking voice. Lol. Loud!!

 

[ars nova]

there was an article in which the other female member of spectrum stated she was able to sight a bit better than Karen.

 

[ars nova]

I agree that Toni Tennille may have been exaggerating for effect. Also, what I wrote was also just paraphrasing what I remember of the quote. Of course, I'm sure that Karen did sometimes re-record sections of songs when her vocal didn't quite go as planned. In fact, you can actually hear an edit in 'Sweet, Sweet Smile'. At least, I THINK you can. I think it's near the beginning when it sounds as if Karen sings, 'I gotta see your sweet, sweet smile' in one take and 'every day' has been edited on in a separate take. I noticed that back in 1977/ 78 when I first heard the song. Of course, I could be wrong. By the way, I am also a big fan of Toni Tennille's singing. What a big voice - a smooth, rich, warm, deep voice. Big singing voice. Big talking voice. Lol. Loud!!

if I read the same Tennille article, she was speaking of styles of production. she indicated that she and daryl liked to get everything as close to natural as possible, in the same take. Tennille continued that Richard wanted everything to be perfect. toni then restated that Karen and Richard WERE perfect. this was all said with great respect toward carpenters.

 

[Another Son]

if I read the same Tennille article, toni restated that Karen and Richard WERE perfect. this was all said with great respect toward carpenters.

I guessed that it would have been said respectfully. I know that Karen, Richard, Toni and Daryl knew each other personally. The Captain and Toni were at Karen's wedding. They also performed a medley of Carpenters songs on their television show, which I saw as a type of tribute. As a fan, I don't mind people criticising Karen anyway. Everybody has different tastes, opinions and perceptions. I don't see Karen as perfect, by any means. But, from what I've read, seen and noticed, Toni Tennille has always been a supporter of Carpenters.

Sometime, I'll find the quote where Richard, as far as I remember, stated that Karen could read music.

 

[newvillefan]

In fact, you can actually hear an edit in 'Sweet, Sweet Smile'. At least, I THINK you can. I think it's near the beginning when it sounds as if Karen sings, 'I gotta see your sweet, sweet smile' in one take and 'every day' has been edited on in a separate take. I noticed that back in 1977/ 78 when I first heard the song. Of course, I could be wrong.

You're not wrong, there is a very obvious edit in the very place you describe. Karen's vocals overlap slightly on the words "smile" and "every", but it's obvious enough that I noticed it the first time I heard the song. I'm really surprised Richard let that one slip through.

 

[GaryAlan]

I remain puzzled, combing through the Fan Club Newsletters, we read (#83):
February 1985;
Q: "...did the Carpenters have their music memorized or did they have it in front of them?"
A:"Memorized,of course."

 

[newvillefan]

I remain puzzled, combing through the Fan Club Newsletters, we read (#83):
February 1985;
Q: "...did the Carpenters have their music memorized or did they have it in front of them?"
A:"Memorized,of course."

Why puzzled? That's like asking a singer if they need the lyrics in front of them when performing on stage or whether they can sing the songs off by heart. The Carpenters were well known for rehearsing intensively for their live performances.

 

[GaryAlan]

^^Ah...yes...I see where my puzzlement would be puzzling !
Here is my position:
After trying to hunt down a definitive answer to the question in the Coleman Biography,
it seems I am still unable to find a declarative sentence in that book regarding the situation !
And, it is with some chagrin that whenever you watch--say--a symphony orchestra,
surely a circumstance where all have "practiced" their respective musical parts--you
will see all of the musicians with the sheet music in front of them.
Now, being the so-called "perfectionists" that they were known to be, surely Karen and Richard
would have required all musicians (themselves included) to have the music in front of them
during a concert, or studio, performance. (that is, the music in front of them, not the lyrics).
I do not hold "lyrics" (which are easily remembered) to be in as high regard as
"the musical notes" (which, surely, are less easily remembered--on a note-per-note basis) !
Coleman mentions Richard's copyist (Ron Gorow) , yet, remains ambiguous in
explicitly saying that either Richard and/or Karen actually "read music" for performing (or, composing,
in Richard's circumstance). Neither completed their music degree (per Coleman),
and were students specifically in the choral department, so--in that respect--
"reading the musical notes" was not necessarily a requirement.
The "Of course" appended to the answer in the Newsletters, is puzzling--it really does not need to be
emphasized that anything be memorized....what is puzzling is that,
--being perfectionists--
that it (the sheet music) would not be in front of them !


Hopefully I have clarified my position !

 

[David A]

if I read the same Tennille article, she was speaking of styles of production. she indicated that she and daryl liked to get everything as close to natural as possible, in the same take. Tennille continued that Richard wanted everything to be perfect. toni then restated that Karen and Richard WERE perfect. this was all said with great respect toward carpenters.

If it came across in my previous post regarding Toni Tenille's comments about the C's, that I thought she was being disrespectful, that was not my intention. I was just curious how Toni might know how the C's worked in the studio. If I had to guess, I'd think they very much respected the C's; which seems to be the case after reading further comments here.

I didn't know they (Toni and Daryl) were at her wedding, and that definitely infers a closer friendship between them I didn't know existed.

Ultimately, I could always ask Toni; she lives about an hour from me

 

[David A]

I agree that Toni Tennille may have been exaggerating for effect. Also, what I wrote was also just paraphrasing what I remember of the quote. Of course, I'm sure that Karen did sometimes re-record sections of songs when her vocal didn't quite go as planned. In fact, you can actually hear an edit in 'Sweet, Sweet Smile'. At least, I THINK you can. I think it's near the beginning when it sounds as if Karen sings, 'I gotta see your sweet, sweet smile' in one take and 'every day' has been edited on in a separate take. I noticed that back in 1977/ 78 when I first heard the song. Of course, I could be wrong. By the way, I am also a big fan of Toni Tennille's singing. What a big voice - a smooth, rich, warm, deep voice. Big singing voice. Big talking voice. Lol. Loud!!

Yes Toni had a BIG voice. It's funny you'd mention she talks loud too, because she does indeed

A bit of trivia - Toni sings backgrounds on Elton John's "Don't Let the Sun go Down on Me" on the Caribou album.

Digressing yet again - I wonder what Karen thought of Elton John's music.

 

[Chris May]

You're not wrong, there is a very obvious edit in the very place you describe. Karen's vocals overlap slightly on the words "smile" and "every", but it's obvious enough that I noticed it the first time I heard the song. I'm really surprised Richard let that one slip through.

Yes indeed. Karen punched in vocal lines and phrases often. Remember, they were perfectionists. As far as the Toni Tennille reference with regard to Karen and Richard recording individually, not sure if she meant when they recorded master leads, or the backing vocals. I know from around '75 on, the backing vocals were not recorded the same way they had been in previous years, in that, Karen would sing her parts and double each (rather than triple), as Richard would listen from the booth. Then Richard would stack his parts and she would listen.

 

[Murray]

^^Ah...yes...I see where my puzzlement would be puzzling !
Here is my position:
After trying to hunt down a definitive answer to the question in the Coleman Biography,
it seems I am still unable to find a declarative sentence in that book regarding the situation !
And, it is with some chagrin that whenever you watch--say--a symphony orchestra,
surely a circumstance where all have "practiced" their respective musical parts--you
will see all of the musicians with the sheet music in front of them.
Now, being the so-called "perfectionists" that they were known to be, surely Karen and Richard
would have required all musicians (themselves included) to have the music in front of them
during a concert, or studio, performance. (that is, the music in front of them, not the lyrics).
I do not hold "lyrics" (which are easily remembered) to be in as high regard as
"the musical notes" (which, surely, are less easily remembered--on a note-per-note basis) !
Coleman mentions Richard's copyist (Ron Gorow) , yet, remains ambiguous in
explicitly saying that either Richard and/or Karen actually "read music" for performing (or, composing,
in Richard's circumstance). Neither completed their music degree (per Coleman),
and were students specifically in the choral department, so--in that respect--
"reading the musical notes" was not necessarily a requirement.
The "Of course" appended to the answer in the Newsletters, is puzzling--it really does not need to be
emphasized that anything be memorized....what is puzzling is that,
--being perfectionists--
that it (the sheet music) would not be in front of them !


Hopefully I have clarified my position !

Gary, remember that Richard took piano lessons for years, including at Yale. It goes without saying that he learned to read music. He also worked for a time as a church organist, so he obviously had to be able to read the hymnal - I rather doubt that he would have learned them all by ear. Also, the ability to read music is a requirement for a choral student, just as it is for any music major at a university. Karen certainly would have learned to read drum music when she was in her high school marching band. I was in a school band, and we began to learn music reading from day one.

Have you ever seen the musicians in a pop / rock / country band with sheet music in front of them? I never have. The Carpenters, and the guys in the band would have practiced and performed those songs so many times, that they could have practically played them in their sleep... on tour, the same songs, in the same order, night after night. It's different for the musicians in a symphony orchestra. They will perform a number of concerts over the course of a season, but completely different pieces in each concert. They may not perform the same music again for years. It makes sense then, for them to have the printed music in front of them. Featured soloists however, usually have their repertoire memorized.

The fact that Richard employed a copyist, doesn't mean that he couldn't have written the notes down himself. It was probably more for convenience than anything. Putting musical notes to paper is tedious, and having to stop all the time to write things down before they are forgotten, kind of stifles the creative process. When Richard was composing, it would have been easier for him to just play around with his musical ideas, and let Ron Gorow worry about getting it all on paper.

 

[Chris May]

The fact that Richard employed a copyist, doesn't mean that he couldn't have written the notes down himself. It was probably more for convenience than anything. Putting musical notes to paper is tedious, and having to stop all the time to write things down before they are forgotten, kind of stifles the creative process. When Richard was composing, it would have been easier for him to just play around with his musical ideas, and let Ron Gorow worry about getting it all on paper.

And just to further clarify, Richard could and can certainly read and write music. However, he has never been a technical orchestrator. Did he orchestrate those records in the literal sense, whereby he created the chords, notes, melodic and counter-melodic structures and rhythms and play and dictate them? Yes. However he was not at the skill level it took to write it out so things would play correctly in the studio nor turn things around like a guy like Ron could. So it's one of those 50/50 answers!

 

[GaryAlan]

^^Stephen,Murray & Chris,
I am very much enjoying the clarity being offered !
The Coleman book consistently mentions Richard's "sight-reading"--
a term I needed to look-up, as I am not a professional musician.
Richard Carpenter is described (Coleman, Bettis, Alpert)as being a musical "genius,"
which is fine and dandy--but, I always thought of Karen the same way !
I am still unable to locate an answer, in the Coleman Book, to the original question :
Did Karen read sheet music ?
And,as usual I still believe Coleman is too ambiguous regarding too much of their career !

 

[Chris May]

^^Stephen,Murray & Chris,
I am very much enjoying the clarity being offered !
The Coleman book consistently mentions Richard's "sight-reading"--
a term I needed to look-up, as I am not a professional musician.
Richard Carpenter is described (Coleman, Bettis, Alpert)as being a musical "genius,"
which is fine and dandy--but, I always thought of Karen the same way !
I am still unable to locate an answer, in the Coleman Book, to the original question :
Did Karen read sheet music ?
And,as usual I still believe Coleman is too ambiguous regarding too much of their career !

Absolutely she read. Remember, she played glockenspiel early on, so not only do you have to understand rhythmic values, but you also have to be able to understand melodic notation as well.

 

[tomswift2002]

Absolutely she read. Remember, she played glockenspiel early on, so not only do you have to understand rhythmic values, but you also have to be able to understand melodic notation as well.

Also if you remember from the Close To You documentary, Richard mentioned that before the drums Karen had dabbled in the flute and a few other instruments. Plus, growing up with Richard, I'm sure that at one time or another Richard probably showed Karen a few things, or Karen might've picked up one of Richard's music books from time to time, and read parts of it.

And GaryAlan I know several people who are good at "sight reading". For them its a natural gift just being able to pick up on a melody and play along.

 

[DowneyDiSampson]

The ability to read music and the ability to sight read vocals are totally different. Of course they could both read music.

 

[ars nova]

there was an article, many years ago, where a female singer, perhaps leslie johnson, spoke about working with karen, the gist was that karen had a strong, clear voiced, but she ( leslie ) was better at sight reading.