Karen's Solo album

[SakuraSYayoi]

Sakura,
I would love to be able to see the whole thing again! The album cover was beautiful in its roses, purples and lavenders. Just stunning!
One day maybe someone with photoshop will try to do a color correction on some of these photos...

I'd like to see the photoshop art!! I once asked this at another group. A member who is good at computer, told me that he would, but not yet.

Or someone may be able to create the one from the one that Karen gave Mrs. Ramone with her sign.

I have seen Mr & Mrs. Ramone's photos at photo sites. They appeared on Children Miracle Network Telethon with Donny Osmond. (I just know that the Children Miracle Network was found by Mother Osmond, Olive(?), while I was searching for Karen and John Denver at the page that has John Denver and Olivia Newton-John's "Fly Away" video. The video poster had the Osmonds video, and in the video and in other videos the Osmonds and Jimmy Osmond talked about the network.)

My first Carpenters book has Karen's and Richard's photo with the Osmonds and Jimmy, the same one in tour book.
Although I have read that Alan(sp?) Osmond visited Karen and Richard's house for Richard's birthday in fan club newsletter, I hadn't thought that I can watch the video until this year.


I have seen some of videos with Mrs. Ramone's songs. One of them was
"Loverboy" by "Karen Kamon".
Does anyone know, or can anyone find who was a makeup artist for Mrs. Ramone?

Sakura

 

[Jeff]

hey gang,

where can a die-hard get good transfers of the unreleased recordings from the solo sessions?

Jeff

 

[Harry]

Since the recordings are "unreleased" it wouldn't be a good idea to post them here, as we try to maintain a bit of decorum in that regard.

Harry

 

[goodjeans]

 

[goodjeans]

I was re-reading the article from New York Times regarding Karen's solo album early this morning. The author states that the decision to not release the album came on the eve of it's release. I think nthat I may have brought this up before, but it drives me mad thinking that the album had been printed and ready to be shipped or perhaps the author is in error. Does anyone know???

 

[Mike Blakesley]

"The eve of its release" could mean anything from "the record was boxed and ready to ship" to "the masters had been approved to be pressed" to "the company has agreed to release the album." It's highly unlikely the album was actually ready to ship...if it had been, you'd see unauthorized copies floating around.

 

[newvillefan]

I was re-reading the article from New York Times regarding Karen's solo album early this morning. The author states that the decision to not release the album came on the eve of it's release. I think nthat I may have brought this up before, but it drives me mad thinking that the album had been printed and ready to be shipped or perhaps the author is in error

What this means in practice is that the album artwork and photo sessions had been completed and the album had been designated an A&M catalogue number. The drafts for the album artwork were already printed, featuring the VOTH cover picture as the cover for the album and Karen curled up on the purple chair as the back cover. (I would suspect that the song titles for sides A and B of the LP would have been listed down the purple arms of the chair in white, to make them stand out from the purple colour).

 

[mr J.]

This idea that Karen's solo album was cancelled on the eve of its release could not be true.Albums are manufactured several weeks before the actual release date,and they are shipped to record stores at least a week before the release date.Albums are actually on store shelves the night before release.All this advance planning is done to ensure that an album is indeed ready to sell on the release date.An album couldn't be cancelled the eve of release-legally or realistically.Retailers can legally sell an album at midnight on the eve of release(if they chose to stay open that late.)And,if an artist somehow did want to stop an album release at that late stage,it would probably still take a couple of weeks for the record label to notify the music distributors,who would then have to notify all the record stores,who would then have to round up all the copies in each store.Obviously,that would be a complicated task.

As far as Karen's album is concerned-I believe the decision to cancel was made in March,1980-when the album was given a formal hearing by A&M's top brass.The decision was made public in May,1980.(2 months later).

 

[newvillefan]

I think the confusion is over the phrase 'on the eve'. I agree, it wasn't technically on the eve of its release, but some time before. It probably seemed like it was on the eve of its release, because it had taken so long to record (12 months)!.

The fact that Karen had attended the photo sessions for it (on multiple occasions - red jacket session, purple chair session etc) shows that Karen obviously believed everything was going to be ok, and that the album would be going out without a hitch. Little did she suspect the team would go against her at that crucial first listen at A&M.

I'm not sure about the constraints in their recording contract, but why Karen didn't just go and find an alternative label (in New York?) to put this out, is beyond me. Freddie Mercury did this for his first solo album. It didn't go out on Queen's record label, because he met a New York producer on a transatlantic flight, who opened his chequebook and told Freddie to write his own figure for the chance to release the album on his own label. And that's how it was released.

 

[Harry]

I'm not sure about the constraints in their recording contract, but why Karen didn't just go and find an alternative label (in New York?) to put this out, is beyond me.

Karen was, if nothing else, loyal and devoted to her brother. She was in awe of his talents and his business sense (even if those skills were slipping a bit in 1980).

I'm sure that if she'd gone behind his back to the powers that be at A&M (or any other label) and insisted on the release of the album, they'd have done it for her, but that's not who she was. She likely didn't want the album to become a wedge between the two of them. It was probably not as important to her as her relationship with Richard.

At that point in time, both were envisioning a long future with plenty of time for side projects. The goal in 1980 was to get "Carpenters" back on track with hit records.

Harry

 

[newvillefan]

I'm sure that if she'd gone behind his back to the powers that be at A&M (or any other label) and insisted on the release of the album, they'd have done it for her, but that's not who she was.

Which is all the more confusing, given that she'd invested $400,000 of her own money on this. I honestly don't believe this was just a sideline thing for her, I really think she wanted to branch out and not be seen as part of her brother all the time. Richard has since admitted as much and I think he's partly responsible for not encouraging her, despite his own reservations.

She was in awe of his talents and his business sense (even if those skills were slipping a bit in 1980).

I also think Richard's vision was lacking before 1980, as early as 1977 or 1978. On the 1981 GMA interview he said that he wanted them to continue doing what they were doing, dismissing the idea of working with Karen on her dream to do a musical. The thing is, doing what they were doing wasn't working any more. They'd had 3 failed singles from that 1981 album (if you include Beechwood 4-5789 from March 82) and were out of favour with the radio programmers.

He's also said that if Karen were alive today, they'd still be doing what they had, recording albums, an occasional tour. It's all conjecture, but I think this is an injustice to Karen, who I believe would have branched out from the Carpenters and gone on to Broadway musicals, recording albums with other major artists such as Streisand. I think Carpenters was only the first phase in her career and I believe ultimately, career-wise, she would left Richard behind to do other things.

Despite all the years of (Karen) trying to emphasise his true worth to the partnership, the message still wasn't across. It may sound harsh, but think Richard knew by 1981 that his career depended on her as the star, and I think that's reflected in the fact that his career as an artist all but died the day that she did.

 

[Harry]

I certainly agree that Richard's skills had declined in the latter part of the '70s and not just in "1980". My point was that yes, Karen wanted to do the album - DID the album - invested her own money, but she still had great respect and devotion to her brother and wanted, more than anything else, to help get "Carpenters" back into hit territory.

Thus, when the decision was made to shelve the album, though it disappointed her, she still looked forward to making more records with her brother and getting that phase of their collective career back in order.

This is all hindsight for us. We have the benefit of knowing that Karen's days on Earth were limited. No-one who was there at the time suspected anything like that.

I still maintain that Richard and the powers that be at A&M made the right decision at the time to shelve Karen's album. Having lived through the era, I just know that none of that material would have been a hit, and it likely would have damaged 'Carpenters' reputation even further, perhaps even becoming the butt of cruel jokes about "goody two-shoes" going disco.

I suspect that the notion of Karen branching out on her own had she lived is probably correct. The signs were all there, and the "Carpenters" brand of music was sadly past. I think both would have realized that after an album or two of more failures and gone on to other things. As suggested, a standards album or broadway stuff or even soundtrack composing/arranging were likely waiting out there for them.

Who knows? Today they'd probably be doing a show in Branson, MO or Las Vegas and hawking new recordings of old material on PBS.

Harry

 

[goodjeans]

Who knows? Today they'd probably be doing a show in Branson, MO or Las Vegas and hawking new recordings of old material on PBS.

Yikes. Sort of a scarey thought, but still better than what happened in reality.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I agree with Harry's thoughts about Karen's solo record. It probably would have been a minor "blip" saleswise, given the musical climate at that time. It just wasn't different enough from what they had been doing. But her voice is so unique, it's hard to suggest what she could have done that would have been different enough. I think a "country" album would have been her best shot.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

We don't have alot of interviews of Richard and Karen from 81-83 however we do have a few, the GMA interview often tells alot from underview. The eye action and choice of words often tells more than the conversation. Richard is looking at Karen like he is walking on eggshells with every word he says. Joan had asked something like what would you like to do that you have not already done, Karen is quick to reply that she would like to do a movie/musical (could Grease or Xanadu have gave Karen ideas of her own?)

What I am trying to get at is Karen's wheels inside her head were always turning thinking of things she could and I think should be doing. Not only was she thinking of herself but also thinking of what Richard would be good at doing by this time in there careers (established artists) by offering to say he could be scoring a film. However either Richard disliked that whole idea or he just wanted to concentrate more of Carpenters at this point having his plate full trying to get back to where they were.

Then to top it all off, Karen goes on to say that she believes that they can still work separtely while still working together (something like this I'm going from memory here) Here Karen tells the viewing audience (and possible the A&M execs listening as well???) that yes she can do material outside the Carpenters camp and still be Carpenters. Did Karen really say this on live tv? Yes she did. If only Joan had asked about her solo sessions. I would have loved to hear Karen talked about what was shelved. Karen was so open during this interview.

However we all know Karen was just in no shape physically for such a heavy workload, her drive and desire was there but her body was wore out. That is the sad part.

 

[Dave]

I really agree about TV/Movie Soundtrack material being the next move--and a real good one, which I'm sure could rejuvinate their career and re-start sales... Don't forget a "Duets" album, too!

Branson, MO??? Well, what would the name of this "Carpenters Theater" be???!!!



Dave

 

[Harry]

I agree with virtually everything that Chris has said here, and still maintain that in that 1981-82 timeframe, both Karen and Richard were looking at coming off of both of their personal problems - Richard with his pills and Karen with her weight-loss issues. After a four to five year period of poor sales, inactivity, and further degradation of their reputation in the industry, I think they both really would have wanted another big hit "Carpenters" album before breaking off and trying separate things.

Karen did her album, thought it was good, but aquiesced to the opinions of those around her that it probably wasn't in her best interest at that time to release it. She too had some business acumen and I think she realized that it wasn't going to be a huge breakout recording and that her better chances were with her brother and their tried-and-true formula, with perhaps a bit of updating to that style.

Harry

 

[goodjeans]

The eye action and choice of words often tells more than the conversation. Richard is looking at Karen like he is walking on eggshells with every word he says.

oh, Chris. Well said.

I am referring to memory at this stage, but I watched that appearance while in college. I think Richard was somewhat flip in this interview and Karen was quite independent and open. She said, and I am of course paraphrasing, maybe Richard could score my movie and he replied, " I'll have my secretary call yours." Ouch. They were both very well dressed and I think they were ready to board the Concorde? on their way to Europe. I also may have had residual pot in my system so don't hold me to it. I am kidding about the residual pot.It was still fresh in my system. I kid again. Maybe.

 

[newvillefan]

I am referring to memory at this stage, but I watched that appearance while in college. I think Richard was somewhat flip in this interview and Karen was quite independent and open. She said, and I am of course paraphrasing, maybe Richard could score my movie and he replied, " I'll have my secretary call yours." Ouch. They were both very well dressed and I think they were ready to board the Concorde? on their way to Europe. I also may have had residual pot in my system so don't hold me to it. I am kidding about the residual pot.It was still fresh in my system. I kid again. Maybe.

Spot on. Richard glances nervously at her every couple of seconds while he's talking about what *their* plans are, where they see themselves heading. Almost like he's nervous about saying the wrong thing. What's annoying is you can't see Karen in the shot, so it's hard to tell if Karen was looking back at him, but he's watching her quite intently.

Karen mentioned musicals, and how Richard should score a film or musical, how good he would be at it etc. He rejects this, two or three times, saying it's just not at the top of his wish list. In the end Karen indignantly replies 'ok you can score MY film'. They didn't seem to be seeing eye to eye during that interview.

 

[Harry]

They didn't seem to be seeing eye to eye during that interview.

And they probably weren't. He was worried about her health - he's been quoted many times in later interviews that he sensed something was deeply wrong with her. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a little spat on the way to the TV studio that day.

Harry

 

[Dave]

I'm quite sure there was a little spat on their way home from the TV Studio as well... A shame with the yet to be newfound success came yet more personal problems the two were trying to deal with, along with yet take in the oncoming renewal that yet to be had comeback would really have earned them...!



Dave

 

[Mark-T]

The fascinating ans frustrating aspect of this story is, at best, we will only ever hear Richard's version- but my bet is he is too much of a gentleman to tell.

 

[Dave60640]

I am in total agreement with Harry and Chris, and in regards to what-ever step would've been next, I am 110% positive Karen would have had the ultimate say. She seemed to be a very strong-willed and determined individual and wouldn't have settled for "mediocre" sales and fanfare in the '80's. All I can say for sure is that I would've loved to see Karen's next move on the solo front. Given the all too direct, and not so complimentary feedback she was handed regarding the first solo effort her second attempt would most assuredly contain some more higly regarded and timeless song materials and arrangements.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Despite all the years of (Karen) trying to emphasise his true worth to the partnership, the message still wasn't across. It may sound harsh, but think Richard knew by 1981 that his career depended on her as the star, and I think that's reflected in the fact that his career as an artist all but died the day that she did.

There's no denying that he's the architect behind the sound. However, without Karen's voice, there's no sound. This is even true of the backgrounds. We've heard him do his own "stacks" and we've heard him "stack" with Scott Grimes ("That's What I Believe" on the "Time" record). In both cases, the magic just isn't there. I agree with you totally in that he needed her. We saw what happened when he didn't have her. "Time" and "Composer..." both flopped. He couldn't have been thrilled to find her trying to break out as a solo act.

Ed

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I'd remember reading some interesting words in the Coleman book about Karen's solo album so I thought I would drag the book out and find it.

Page 245: It says that Karen hysterical and tearful needed Richard's blessing before leaving for NY the next day, Richard replied that she obviously didn't really need his blessing, Richard says what was I going to say, No? It also says that it crossed Richard's mind that if the album turned out to be fantastic, better than anything she and he had done together in the recent past, it could threaten or undermine his future with her. Then says Richard put that all aside and yes Karen you have my blessing just dont do disco.

Page 264 says Olivia Newton-John spoke to Karen on the eve of the flight to NY, saying Karen was excited but apprehensive about her first splinter from Richard. "That was difficult for her. She had such a feeling of loyalty to him. Doing something out the the family was important, a show of strength, of independence. But she and Richard had great friendship and commitment to each other. As far as she was concerned, nobody wrote more beautiful arrangements or was more of a perfectionist"

Page 274 talks about when Olivia was present during the playback to Richard of Karen's album and how Richard told Karen "You've stolen the Carpenters sound" Olivia saying she was still very confused about about what that implied criticism meant of her solo work. Richard explained it that when he spoke of the Carpenters sound on the Ramone production, he meant all the vocal overdubs and tight harmonies. Richard was not happy when he heard that on Karen's solo album.

If we are to take this Coleman book as being accurate then that leads the reader to think that Richard was more jealous of what he heard from Karen's solo album than really stealing the Carpenters sound. Because whatever album Karen would have made, her voice would have that ovedubbing sound when the record producer dubs her vocals. So Karen was to make a record that did not include overdubbing and Richard would have been more happy? That is the part I am confused about as well. I feel that whatever song Karen had sung or choose to record even a duet with another artist would evolve in hearing Karen singing with tight harmonies because her voice just has that ability "naturally" to record this way. That is what made her voice so special, like Petula Clark says she could have sung anything. That is why I get confused about the albuming being shelved because the album was not going to be a blockbuster or money hit or the material was wrong or because Richard thought the sound reminded him of the tight harmonies and overdubbing he made famous with the duo or maybe it was a mixture of all. Didn't they also give Karen almost like a 2nd chance to tweek the album remixing it with Quincy Jones who thought it was fabulous before getting it a final rejection?

There's so much stuff inside the Coleman book it's hard to grasp it all reading through the first time. Some detailed stuff never released up till this book was released.