Lowest Note Hit by Karen

[Seán]

Forgot to tell you all!- the Now & Then sound clips are from the Quadrophonic Japanese CD-4 LP of Now & Then (hence the picture of the accompanying cover with the Obi etc). The mixing is quite appropriate for showing off high notes, more so than both the original release and Richard's remix. I have a high resolution music file for the whole album; if anyone would like I can send it- I'd have to work out how to file share > 2gb of audio though

 

[Tony]

Thanks for this video Sean. It's fascinating. It's notable to me that you're saying her highest note is not in "I'll Never Fall in Love Again", as Richard stated, but is instead in "Bwana". What's more, you're saying the high note in "I'll Never..." is actually an F5, not an F6 as indicated previously in thread. I've really enjoyed listening through this several times.

Just curious, where does the high note near the end of "Love is Surrender" fit in the mix?

(Side note to moderators: it seems to me this video of Karen's vocal range should have it's own thread.)

I made a video showing Karen's lowest and higher notes, going from low to high notes through the three 'registers'. I'll try to explain the vocal registers:
Chest voice is a term used to describe the singing with the 'natural' timbre of a speaking voice. Upper Chest is a.k.a. the Belting register or Mixed register; the 'natural' sounding chest voice is pushed high where it takes on a shoutier sound. Think of Janis Joplin as an example. Finally, the 'Head Voice' which describes the register sounding like a 'hooting' owl or woodpigeon, or a lady Opera singer. Usually the voice people switch to in order to reach their highest notes. Much harder to phonate words (esp. consonants) in this register; Karen rarely did.

If I Had You does have a very low background vocal in the verse, the C an octave below middle C, and B'wana She No Home has an E-flat two octaves above middle C. I've tried to isolate hard to hear notes in as best way I can! Read the description for some reasons why Karen likely had a 'hybrid' voice- a 'Dugazon' voice and not a 'Contralto', and to find some other high and low notes...

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[Seán]

Thanks for this video Sean. It's fascinating. It's notable to me that you're saying her highest note is not in "I'll Never Fall in Love Again", as Richard stated, but is instead in "Bwana". What's more, you're saying the high note in "I'll Never..." is actually an F5, not an F6 as indicated previously in thread. I've really enjoyed listening through this several times.

Just curious, where does the high note near the end of "Love is Surrender" fit in the mix?

(Side note to moderators: it seems to me this video of Karen's vocal range should have it's own thread.)

Thanks for the appreciation!

The thing with that 'Fans Ask' section Rich answered with 'I'll Never Fall In Love Again' was that he wanted to try to give a clear, easy to hear example of Karen's 'head voice'; he didn't ever state that was her highest they recorded, and he was correct no to (it was useful to teach on how the harmonies stacked too, up from Rich's low F2 to Karen's F5); even All You Get From Love Song's head voice use Rich referenced to in the same answer, went higher (also in the video). All he said was 'We did use it (Karen's head voice) every now and again for some arrangemental colorings. For example, you can hear it on...' It's just somehow it became sort of folklore as her highest note, perhaps by fans' reference to Rich's answer.

He was correct that with Carpenters, Karen only went down to the D3 of 'A Song For You' also- 'I wouldn't take her and lower than that' he said; it was Phil all along who 'took her lower than that' on 'If I Had You', even if he was slated for pushing her 'too high'! All in all Phil really used her voice to full advantage, actually, as I'm sure you've gathered from my video.

'The Love Is Surrender' high notes are on the word Cuh-a-a-are go F4, Ab4, C5 then it peaks at a sustained D5. Guess that was an oops I forgot to put in the video description, I'll add it.

 

[newvillefan]

It's fascinating. It's notable to me that you're saying her highest note is not in "I'll Never Fall in Love Again", as Richard stated, but is instead in "Bwana".

Chris May and I established that fact after some debate earlier in the thread...fascinating stuff.

Lowest Note Hit by Karen »

 

[Tony]

Thanks for the appreciation!

The thing with that 'Fans Ask' section Rich answered with 'I'll Never Fall In Love Again' was that he wanted to try to give a clear, easy to hear example of Karen's 'head voice'; he didn't ever state that was her highest they recorded, and he was correct no to (it was useful to teach on how the harmonies stacked too, up from Rich's low F2 to Karen's F5); even All You Get From Love Song's head voice use Rich referenced to in the same answer, went higher (also in the video). All he said was 'We did use it (Karen's head voice) every now and again for some arrangemental colorings. For example, you can hear it on...' It's just somehow it became sort of folklore as her highest note, perhaps by fans' reference to Rich's answer.

Hi Sean,

You're welcome. As a non-musician, I find these types of discussions enlightening, educational, and fun. With regard to Richard's statement about Karen's highest note, on the Fans Ask page he said the following:

Q. When you recorded with Karen, what was her highest held note, and on what song? (She had a 4 octave range, right?)

A. High F, tripled on the second “here to remind you” on “I’ll Never Fall In Love Again” on the Close To You album. Karen probably had, with her chest and her head voice, a little over three octaves.

Again, I'm a non-musician, so I'm out of my league, but a quick search tells me high F is an F6. Perhaps Richard misspoke on this particular answer and the high note Karen hit on "I'll Never Fall..." song is an F5. And maybe he didn't recall the higher notes employed on "Bwana". I simply don't know and I'm relying on you and others to possibly offer some clarification

Tony

 

[Tony]

Chris May and I established that fact after some debate earlier in the thread...fascinating stuff.

Lowest Note Hit by Karen »

Yes indeed, I remember that discussion. My confusion, which I mentioned in my post above to Sean, is that this is at odds with what Richard stated. I don't have the skill to know which note is truly higher and what note it actually is, so I'm putting it out there for you guys to clarify. I'm enjoying learning about it all!

 

[newvillefan]

Yes indeed, I remember that discussion. My confusion, which I mentioned in my post above to Sean, is that this is at odds with what Richard stated. I don't have the skill to know which note is truly higher and what note it actually is, so I'm putting it out there for you guys to clarify. I'm enjoying learning about it all!

I love the discussion too, all part of the fun of being a fan! That note on B'Wana sounds a notch higher though than her highest harmony on I'll Never Fall In Love Again.

 

[Seán]

Gosh, it ain't easy when our only source is Rich bar the recording!

Well, Rich said when explaining the harmony in question that 'Karen and I cover three octaves'. Rich said he sang a 'low F'. If Karen sang an F6, Rich would sing a F3 (Maths!; 6 octaves-3 octaves= 3 octaves ), which isn't a 'low' note for Karen, nevermind Rich! Furthermore, 'Low F' always describes F2 for males. So, logically everything was sang in the octave one lower, and Rich sings an F2, and Karen sings an F5 (Still works out as 3 octaves between them; 5 octaves-2 octaves= 3 octaves). In conclusion, Rich was probably just being consistent language-wise when calling Karen's F5 a 'High F' and not actually meaning 'High F' in the technical sense as F6.

F6 is a note many opera females find difficult, not even Karen was that accomplished; Mariah Carey's example:


So yes Tony, Rich was (unintentionally) misleading us after all

No golden ears or musicality needed!

 

[Tony]

In conclusion, Rich was probably just being consistent language-wise when calling Karen's F5 a 'High F' and not actually meaning 'High F' in the technical sense as F6...So yes Tony, Rich was (unintentionally) misleading us after all

That makes sense to me Sean. Simply a confusion of terms.

As for the notes in "Bwana...", when I listen to the segments you highlighted one after the other, I'm having a hard time hearing one that's considerably higher, the one that is the Eb6. Those snippets sound the same to me! I guess it's my ears. In any event, isn't an Eb6 considerably higher than an F5?

 

[Seán]

As for the notes in "Bwana...", when I listen to the segments you highlighted one after the other, I'm having a hard time hearing one that's considerably higher, the one that is the Eb6. Those snippets sound the same to me! I guess it's my ears. In any event, isn't an Eb6 considerably higher than an F5?

Well yes, the three snippets are the same part in the song. The first clip is the unaltered version we're used to. It's just that the lower harmony of an Eb5 and a Bb5 is louder in the left channel, and the higher harmony of a Gb5 and an Eb6 is louder in the right, so the second clip you hear the left channel's audio, and the third clip you hear the right channel's audio. A funny trick i found to hear the Eb6 clearly is, instead of playing the third clip from the start (15:08), play it at 15:14, when the note's loudest (dunno how that makes a difference). Playing the clip loud on speakers in a biggish space helps the note to resonate better also...

Secondly, yes, Eb6 is (a lot) higher than F5. Mathematically, it's a 78% higher note, or musically speaking is ten semitones higher.

 

[Tony]

OK, I'm confident I'm hearing it now. It's puzzling to me that Richard would remark that the note in "I'll Never Fall..." was Karen's highest recorded note when this particular note in "Bwana..." is so much higher.

As a complete novice, I'm curious how one goes about determining what a particular note is. I imagine you compare the note to some standard (piano keyboard? electronic something or other?) rather than simply rely on your ears, unless you're one of those rare people with perfect pitch. How did you go about it Sean?

 

[newvillefan]

It's puzzling to me that Richard would remark that the note in "I'll Never Fall..." was Karen's highest recorded note when this particular note in "Bwana..." is so much higher.

My ears heard that note in B'Wana the very first time I heard the song and I knew it was the highest note I'd ever heard her sing.

 

[Seán]

As a complete novice, I'm curious how one goes about determining what a particular note is. I imagine you compare the note to some standard (piano keyboard? electronic something or other?) rather than simply rely on your ears, unless you're one of those rare people with perfect pitch. How did you go about it Sean?

Yes, I don't use just my ears; perfect pitch is impossible for me like most people; we identify sound by pitch, but also by loudness and quality etc., which cloud the judgement of pitch.

So firstly I look for the song's sheet musc in Carpenters' Anthology songbook. I find what key the song is in. For songs not in the book, I improvise with a chord on the piano until it sound correct/ blends into the music (so to speak) which gives the key. Then I read the melody/lead vocal's lowest and highest note from the sheet music or work them out via improvisation on the piano as the song plays. I write the lowest and highest onto the sheet music or paper. After, I work out the harmonies as the song replays, they usually form a chord around the melody/lead, so are pretty quick work, and they're written in.

 

[CraigGA]

Until this forum I used to think Karen's lowest note was the E below middle C as heard in the last verse of I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day, which nonetheless is still a great example of her low register and how it rang like a clear bell even at such a low note. It fills the soul like a deep rush of fresh air or delivery of blood to the heart to fill the body of nutrients. The clarity, tone, timbre and beauty of such a note from a female singer, (even a contralto) is rare. And we have not even begun to express the innate delivery of a phrase with perfect interval distinction.

 

[Tony]

My ears heard that note in B'Wana the very first time I heard the song and I knew it was the highest note I'd ever heard her sing.

Yes, and I'm glad you pointed it out. My ears didn't pick up on it and I had no idea of its significance.

 

[Tony]

Until this forum I used to think Karen's lowest note was the E below middle C as heard in the last verse of I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day, which nonetheless is still a great example of her low register and how it rang like a clear bell even at such a low note. It fills the soul like a deep rush of fresh air or delivery of blood to the heart to fill the body of nutrients. The clarity, tone, timbre and beauty of such a note from a female singer, (even a contralto) is rare. And we have not even begun to express the innate delivery of a phrase with perfect interval distinction.

That's a lovely tribute.

 

[Guitarmutt]

OK, so 2 cents. This is not her lowest overall(!), but this song feels like one of the lowest overall: Crescent Noon! Karen stays low in the leads. Not the lowest notes, but I think it might be the overall lowest song. Range within song, if you will?!?

Anyone?

The effect, overall, affects me more than the occasional low notes.

Am I missing a Karen below?

If so, I want to listen again.

 

[AM Matt]

Carpenters "Ticket To Ride" "And he don't care.....where". Matt Clark Sanford, MI

 

[Seán]

OK, so 2 cents. This is not her lowest overall(!), but this song feels like one of the lowest overall: Crescent Noon! Karen stays low in the leads. Not the lowest notes, but I think it might be the overall lowest song. Range within song, if you will?!?

Anyone?

The effect, overall, affects me more than the occasional low notes.

Am I missing a Karen below?

If so, I want to listen again.

Crescent Noon was sung by Karen (totally) from E3 to C5. The tuning Rich used was funny (not the usual, very slightly lower) so it's harder to identify the pitches. You could say that the leads did linger in a low overall range, from E3 to G#4, returning to her low register in most phrases, so it makes sense 'feeling' like one of the lowest songs. Rich's backgrounds in the chorus are pretty low also. Although Silent Night is another song with lead vocals singing within the same range (E3-G#4), yet a more central melody, and regular (slightly) higher tuning.

Carpenters "Ticket To Ride" "And he don't care.....where". Matt Clark Sanford, MI

That last 'where' in Ticket To Ride is an F3 (if you wanted to know?!)

 

[moog]

OK, I'm confident I'm hearing it now. It's puzzling to me that Richard would remark that the note in "I'll Never Fall..." was Karen's highest recorded note when this particular note in "Bwana..." is so much higher.

As a complete novice, I'm curious how one goes about determining what a particular note is. I imagine you compare the note to some standard (piano keyboard? electronic something or other?) rather than simply rely on your ears, unless you're one of those rare people with perfect pitch. How did you go about it Sean?

If you have a chromatic tuner, or a chromatic tuner app on your smartphone, you can also just have it identify notes for you.

 

[newvillefan]

I stand corrected!! I figured I'd break away to A/B the two more seriously and you're right! The Occupants overdub is actually voiced an octave lower than I first assumed, putting the high note in B'wana 4 semitones above. Great ear and my apologies for the misinformation!

I've come across a snippet about Karen's range on wikipedia, on the page for the song Calling Occupants Of Interplanetary Craft.

"Karen Carpenter's vocals range from the low note of Bb3 in the first verse to the high note of F#5 before the last chorus (Once the F#5 drops to an E5 a faint harmonized G#5 seems present on the isolated vocal track from The Singles: 1969–1981 SACD but this is equivocal; it is undecided whether it counts in the vocal range)."

What's everyone's thoughts on this information regarding the isolated vocal track from the SACD?

Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia »

 

[Tony]

In another thread, there is a link to Sing with the children's choir removed so that you can hear Karen singing the same parts as the kids. Some of those notes seem pretty high. If you're still out there Sean, I'd love to know where they rank in Karen's range.

 

[BarryT60]

"After long enough of being alone"... is an Eb note.

that's what I recall Richard saying, that the After was her lowest note...

I am a little musically challenged... Eb lower than the straight E, correct?

Richard is correct...

"He's playing sol - i - taaaaaire" ... is an E note.

"Like the devil and the deep blue seeeeeeeeeeeea ... is an E note.

"It ended when you said good bye, eye... eye... eye... is an E note.

"I've made some bad rhyme"... is a D note.
"You are a friend of mine" ... is a D note.

She certainly hit that line... but I doubt she could go a quarter note lower... you could tell she was wishin' and hopin; and prayin' on ASFY.... But man - what a difference in her commitment to the E on Devil and the Deep Blue Sea.... So rich and full... I could listen to that song over and over because of that very line...

 

[Chris May]

that's what I recall Richard saying, that the After was her lowest note...

I am a little musically challenged... Eb lower than the straight E, correct?

She certainly hit that line... but I doubt she could go a quarter note lower... you could tell she was wishin' and hopin; and prayin' on ASFY.... But man - what a difference in her commitment to the E on Devil and the Deep Blue Sea.... So rich and full... I could listen to that song over and over because of that very line...

That's correct - the word After starts on an Eb which is a 1/2 step lower than the "E". Karen's lowest recorded note on a lead vocal was another 1/2 step below that on A Song For You where she sings "I've sung a lot of songs, I've made some bad rhyme..."

 

[Seán]

In another thread, there is a link to Sing with the children's choir removed so that you can hear Karen singing the same parts as the kids. Some of those notes seem pretty high. If you're still out there Sean, I'd love to know where they rank in Karen's range.

Gladly! At 2:17-2:20 singing the line 'sing-a-song' she hits the notes B♭4-F5-E♭5; the song's highest note is the F5. This ranks quite high for Karen, especially considering she is phonating words and not oohing/aahing/waahing, but still it's far from being the highest note.