most underrated Carpenters album/single

[Jeff]

I'm wondering how many of you feel that "Passage" was a highly underrated album? I think that it was really a technical and artistical achievement that garnered less acclaim than it was due. Any other nominees? How about songs that should've seen single release and didn't? Like "B'wana She No Home" and "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind" which in its day would've "hit", "Two Sides"," Boat To Sail", "Now", I'm Caught Between Goodbye and I Love You" and then there's "Bless The Beasts...". What are some other thoughts?

Jeff

 

[Harry]

Passage was an album where Karen & Richard attempted to get away from their image problems. Their prior two albums, Horizon and A Kind Of Hush, though they produced a few hits, came off as plain-vanilla and rather soft. Those two albums contributed to the image problems the duo faced.

Passage made an attempt to get away from all that. They hired Peter Knight to handle orchestrations and selected some extremely surprising tunes to include in the album. It's possible that they went a bit too far, though I find much to like with Passage. There are at least three or four tunes here that I've heard other fans complain about as just awful, hardly belonging in the Carpenters' canon. Those would include "B'wana She No Home", the opening noisy section of "Argentina" called "On The Balcony Of The Casa Rosada", and "Man Smart, Woman Smarter." And there are fans who have also dissed "Calling Occupants Of Interplanetary Craft." That's a pretty big chunk out of an 8-selection album!

I could live without ever hearing that "Casa Rosada" opening again. Thankfully, on compilations, it's usually eliminated. Other than that, I like the attempts at 'something different' that this album spotlights. The first thing that hits you is the rather different album cover. The colorful and stylized musical notes and staff are rather striking, as is the lack of the familiar "CarpenterS" logo, the first indication that this IS something different. That graphical theme also followed to the record label -- something that's missing from today's compact disc releases. As I enjoy orchestral music, I find the Peter Knight orchestration effort a refreshing change, particularly on the epics of "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" (where arguably Karen has never sounded better) and "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft." And I like the more familiar material here too -- "All You Get From Love Is An Old Love Song" is a worthy successor to hits like "Only Yesterday."

So, underrated? Yes.

Harry
NP: Passage, Carpenters

[addendum] One other point I wanted to make in regard to the original post is that "Bless The Beasts And Children" WAS a hit single, as it was the b-side to "Superstar" and charted in its own right. True, it only reached #67, and might have done better had it not been a flip side.

 

[Rudy]

I'd agree, too: Passage is definitely the runt of the litter. If I want my Carpenters pure and undiluted, A Song For You is top on the list. But for something that's different and unexpected, Passage gets marks for being as brave as it was. The opening of "Argentina" does seem out of place, but there's something strangely alluring and intriguing about it as well.

The only real stinker on the album, I feel, is "Man Smart, Woman Smarter" only because the song is mangled far beyond its original meaning. It was never meant to be trivialized as a novelty song (tagged by a seemingly endless Tom Scott {?} tenor solo). The arrangement is terrible, too--a cluttered bunch of noise in comparison to the rest of the album. It's a good example of a song that's tiring to listen to.

I also find Passage to be the last Carpenters album I really liked. Anything past this, even to this day, I have no desire to listen to all that often. Passage was a good and daring rebound from the frighteningly weak Kind Of Hush (which I liked a lot more when it was newer...I can barely listen to it now). IMHO, the last really "pure" Carpenters album was Horizon--it had the production, the arrangements, and the songwriting.

Singles? Two very obvious choices for me: "Let Me Be The One" should have been a big single. (I'd take that over the dyspeptic "Bless The Beasts".) And, "Happy" from Horizon...that one had a lot of good "single" ingredients.

-= N =-

 

[Chris]

Passage has always been one of my favorites as well, and yes, "Man Smart, Woman Smarter" is the only track that I find hard to take. It's really irritating unless you are in just the right mood for it.

I recently bought the CD of "The Robert Palmer Anthology" and was surprised that his recording of "Man Smart, Woman Smarter" from 1976 has the same exact arrangement that the Carpenters used. It even has some of the same kinds of sound effects in it. The only thing it doesn't have is the long sax solo in the end. Robert pulls off this version better than the Carpenters, but it's still not much of a pleasure.

"B'wana She No Home" is an interesting song. People usually either love it or hate it. I really like it. Karen performs it perfectly with much sophistication. It really shows the versatility of her voice to hear her sing a jazzy piece of this style. I don't think the lyric is meant to be taken seriously at all. Michael Franks' recording of it on his Sleeping Gypsy (1977) is really great too.

It's really a shame that "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" (minus the intro) was not included on the newly released "Essential Collection". Hearing it without the long introduction as we do in the Reader's Digest set and others, makes it really shine. I've heard so many people rave over it when they hear it. It used to get a bit of radio play in the 80's here. Ahh, I miss those days!

 

[mr J.]

PASSAGE is not a great album.This is what I would call a "hodge podge" type of album-an unfocused collection of 2 or 3 "creme de le creme" cuts mixed together with a bunch of klunkers!MADE IN AMERICA,LOVELINES,TICKET TO RIDE and A KIND OF HUSH would also fall into this category.PASSAGE does contain 2 gems-"Argentina" and "I just fall in love again".I would probably say that OLD FASHIONED CHRISTMAS is the most underrated album.The performance,production and material on that album equals a masterpiece!It amazes me that it wasn't released on CD until 1998.

 

[Rick]

PASSAGE is easily the Carpenters' most underrated album. I disagree with mr. j in that he says the album is a hodgepodge. I feel it's a very well assembled package- with a variety of surprises which keeps the album from becoming stale. I remember my first listen to the album. I was already familiar with the two hits "Love Song" and "Occupants"- though the rest was such a wonderful grand surprise. I felt the album was a vast improvement from "Hush". "Man Smart Woman Smarter" was and still is one of my favorite songs. I enjoy the humor of the song and the intertwining of instruments in the solo at the end.

As for songs which should have been a single:
Maybe It's You
Let Me Be the One
This Masquerade
Desperado
Happy
Can't Smile Without You
I Just Fall In Love Again

p.s. oh and by the way the music academy or industry or whoever it is that nominates the Grammy awards also felt the Carpenters did well with Passage, as "Calling Occupants" did receive a Grammy nomination for Richard's arrangement.

 

[Murray]

Can't Smile Without You WAS a single in Canada. It was the re-recorded version, with slightly modified lyrics, that is on the Singles 1974-1978 album. I remember hearing it on the radio quite a few times in '78. I don't know how well it charted. Happy is on that album too, so it had to be released as a single also. However, I don't remember hearing it on the radio.

Murray

 

[CraigGA]

My thoughts..........

I always liked Passage. I felt it showed the Carpenters as versitle musicians, and it certainly concentrated on areas that were not represented in the 'Singles'.

I feel that too much damage to their image was done to their credibility during the A Kind of Hush release for people to even listen to Passage. A live album should have been released instead, for their live material was better than the sickening sweet candy songs on A Kind of Hush. It was a bland album. There was not a strong single from Passage, although Sweet Sweet Smile did put the Carpenters on the top of the Country Billboard Charts and it showed that top songs and new artists had an influence on their music, for Juice Newton wrote that song, and Lee Reintenor is credited in the instrumental credits. Bwana She No Home has always been my favorite from this album, and I'll Just Fall In Love Again should have been the rock influenced ballad to be released as a single, while tapping into the classical influences into rock music that were given by groups like Queen.

Make in America departed from this musical search, only tapping into the Carpenters formula with an updated sound. The only gem on that album is Somebody's Been Lyin'.

 

[Rudy]

Other than someone else covering "Popsicle Toes", "B'wana" is probably one of the earliest cover versions of one of Michael Franks' songs. This one's from his second album, Sleeping Gypsy, which may be the best of his earliest albums. It's an interesting choice to open an album--it works on a much more subtle level than a typical Carpenters song, and its topic of a master/servant relationship is not something you'd usually hear from a group that had songs like "Close To You."

Another great song from Sleeping Gypsy--the song "The Lady Wants To Know" would have been an excellent song to cover as well. It's a bittersweet song that, in the end, I'm still not sure of the meaning of it. (It could be just about the differences between two people in a relationship with something stronger still holding them together, or it could also be taken as the breakdown of a relationship.) It would have made for an interesting Carpenters track for sure:

Daddy he hates airplanes,
Baby loves to fly,
The lady wants to know
the reason why.
Daddy's just like Coltrane
Baby's just like Miles
The lady's just like heaven,
when she smiles.
The lady want to know,
she wants to know the reason,
got to know the reason why.
This man has got to go,
This man is always leaving
How he hates to say goodbye.
But what she doesn't know,
is there really is no reason
Really is no reason why.

I still find it curious that I used to like A Kind Of Hush, and yet today, I really can't get into it anymore. For all purposes, Made In America could be considered the follow-up for it. On both (and on later recordings I've heard), it just feels like the Carpenters sound is there, but the magic is gone. You've got the melodies and harmonies, the lead voice, the piano...still there. But the hooks, production, something just wasn't the same anymore. The music was nice, maybe too nice or too perfect. I liked the edge they had from the period between Close To You and Horizon.

(And that may also be part of the reason I like the original mixes over remixes or re-recorded parts--I'm one who's always felt an original performance should not be tampered with. Endlessly perfecting something strips out any human element and sterilizes the music, and it loses "the edge". In music, we don't need perfection--nobody's perfect, and I'd rather have music with a good "feel" to it, even if there are a few mistakes in it.)

My own feeling was the later albums were more like "Here are Carpenters singing some more nice songs for you!" It's still good music, but is missing that "something" that the earlier albums had.

-= N =-

 

[Bruno]

A KIND OF HUSH is one of my favorite Carpenters albums. I can't understand that some of you dislike it that much. The title song is very catchy, I NEED TO BE IN LOVE is very moving; other romantic favorites are YOU, SANDY, ONE MORE TIME and I HAVE YOU.

BREAKING UP IS HARD TO DO is very catchy, too. BOAT TO SAIL is the most erotic song Karen ever recorded. On the HUSH album, Karen's vocals are more female than ever before!

Surely, GOOFUS should not have neen included. Carpenters version of CAN'T SMILE WITHOUT YOU is much better than Barry Manilows version, because it's not so bombastic, it's more intimate.

Well, tastes are different, aren't they? But I thought it was time that somebody said something positive about HUSH.

 

[Rick]

On the whole as far as Carpenters albums go "Hush" is certainly one of their lesser. Although it has it's standout tracks- those in my mind are; "Hush", "Can't Smile", "Boat" and "Sandy". "I Need to Be In Love" is a great song- but is not one of my favorites.
"Made In America" is probably the Carpenters weakest album. from the drawing on the cover to the selection of songs. When I first head it, in it's initial release, I knew that it would not be a hit. It just was not relevent in any way with what was going on in the music scene at that time. Karen's solo album would have fared much better.
I agree with what a few people have said in this thread that "Horizon" was their last truly great album. If Karen were to have lived I know the Carpenters probably would have come out with some real gems. Richard's "Time" album had some great songs on it- he just needed Karen's voice. Karen would have been great singing "Say Yeah".

 

[thestitch]

Oh, gosh, yes. And can you imagine her singing "Something in your Eyes"? Not that Dusty Springfield wasn't great, mind you, but Karen would have been terrific!

 

[Rudy]

"Made In America" is probably the Carpenters weakest album. from the drawing on the cover to the selection of songs. When I first head it, in it's initial release, I knew that it would not be a hit. It just was not relevent in any way with what was going on in the music scene at that time.

Even the lead-off single, "I Believe You", never did much for me. I recall being excited about a new single, but it just seemed too "old fashioned" and, as you put it, not very relevant to what else was happening. The last single I really liked (and I mean that I was infected with it, playing it in the morning on the headphones before going to school ), was "All You Get From Love Is A Love Song". I don't know to what level it achieved on the pop charts, but that and "Calling Occupants" (more the former, though) that got a ton of airplay around here.

Karen's solo album would have fared much better.

I'm guessing that the record company, and management, may have underestimated this one. But actually, it would have been Phil Ramone's production and the songwriting that would have been the hit. That type of sound was "in" back then (and I certainly listened to my share of similar music back in that time). Not to take anything away from KC, but any singer could have done this album. (And to be honest, at another label with a different singer, it just may have been a hit album.) Rod Temperton's "Lovelines", for instance, is right up there with his very similar song "Off The Wall" which Michael Jackson recorded. (Temperton's songs, even in Heatwave, always had that same flow to them.) So, it's not like I'm putting down the album by saying anyone could have recorded it--on the contrary, it may not have fit KC's mold as a singer, but had it not been scrapped, it could have been a sleeper. Or a total dud. At this later date, I still like it better than Hush, Made In America or anything else that has followed.

I agree with what a few people have said in this thread that "Horizon" was their last truly great album.

I feel that it's their last great "Carpenters Formula" album. And that's not a bad thing--they still had an incredible string of albums from Close To You through Horizon, with some hits that are still durable to this day. I will say (with portions of Ray Coleman's book backing me up) that their fall from the charts is something that naturally happens to all artists who have run their course. I think the record-buying and radio-listening public gets their fill of an artist, then move on to something different. There will always be the loyal fans, and the music is just as good (if not better), but the fixation (if you will) wears off. Today's climate is a lot different (musical talent rarely rules the charts anymore, since it's all so "manufactured"), but even as recently as the 80's, you'll see artists who still make albums today, but never reach the upper levels of the charts.

-= N =-

 

[Geographer]

Golly, I must really be an odd-ball here. I think Made In America is one of their BEST albums! It is a much more "mature" sound (as oposed to "explicit" a la Karen's solo) than anything they did before. Technically, it is a great achievement. "Strength of a Woman," "Touch Me," "When It's Gone," are all EXCELLENT songs. I think it is my favorite of thier albums next to "Carpenters" and "Close to You." I really think they came out of the 70's with a fine, updated, yet consistant quality sound.

As far as "Hush," there was a fine line between it being a good album and a sub-par Carpenter album. My opinion, is that if they replaced "Goofus," "Breaking Up is Hard to Do," and "Can't Smile without You," with songs of a caliber like "Ordinary Fool," the album would probably be one of my favorites. But those three songs are just plain corny and I sometimes find myself wincing in pain when I hear them. More than not, my feeling is those three songs bring down the rest of what otherwise would have been a good album.

Does anyone out there agree with me?

 

[davidgra]

I think we, as Carpenters fanatics, tend to see their albums differently than the general record-buying public -- I know of the artists I like, I tend to prefer their "non-hits" more often, just because you don't hear them as much.

But in the case of the Carpenters, I'm of the opinion that their best work is the work that is most highly rated by the public. THE SINGLES: 1969-1973 is by far my favorite album. That's the only "greatest hits" album I own that I would consider a favorite from any particular artist.

As far as underrated albums go, I'd actually pick CLOSE TO YOU as their most underrated. Everybody knows "Close to You" and "We've Only Just Begun," but I don't think the majority of Americans recognize the true genius that this album is. I'll play side 2 of that album over and over, cranking up "Crescent Noon" to as loud as I can stand it and keeping the volume up through "Another Song."

I've never been particularly fond of A KIND OF HUSH, PASSAGE and MADE IN AMERICA, and it took me years to realize just why that is -- the darkness is gone. I also miss the "edge" from their earlier albums, but it's the darkness that really makes Karens' voice so appealing to me. It's as if she's really opening the depths of her soul to the listener when she sings "Rainy Days and Mondays" and "Superstar," but when she sings about "Sandy" and "Occupants of Interplanetary Craft," she's staying on the surface. "I Need to Be In Love" is one exception to that during that period.

This is mainly the fault of the choice of material -- Karen's performances are spectacular as always, but "There's a Kind of Hush" just isn't a strong song. And I don't dislike ALL the material; "You" is one of my favorite of all Carpenters' songs. It's funny about the songs that were not chosen to be on the albums -- "Tryin' to Get the Feeling Again" and "Ordinary Fool" and MUCH of the unused material from the MADE IN AMERICA sessions are all better songs than many of the songs used on those albums!

One of the most unfortunate "could-have-beens" from the Carpenters' career is the aborted 1978 album, which they started working on while also working on CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT. With songs like "Look to Your Dreams," "Honolulu City Lights," "Slow Dance," and even "Thank You For the Music," that album was sure to have taken a much different direction from MADE IN AMERICA. While I don't think any of those songs would have been hit singles for them, I think the album itself might have been very well-received.

Even a "soundtrack" album for MUSIC MUSIC MUSIC could have been a step in the right direction in 1980. With the Karen/Ella duet, the use of "standards" and the overall variety of material (including the great renditions of the Bacharach/David songs in the 1980 medley), I think this would have been a lovely album that could have sold quite well.

I know we'd all do things differently if we could do them over again, and Richard has said the same many times before. But you can't help but wonder how some changes would have affected the course of the Carpenters' career during the late '70s. Oh well, all we can do now is hope for the release of some of that "what if" material from that time...

David

 

[Michael]

Yes! I so agree with that DARKNESS IS GONE statement. Never could put my finger on it until now! The extensive overdubbing (Altos of Karen) was also used in a more chilling way on the earlier albums. Also, one song that I think is a missed gem is YOU'RE THE ONE. What a great song! Why this was unreleased for so long and not deemed hit material is beyond me.

—Michael

 

[Rudy]

Or, on the later albums, what about the phrase "going through the motions?"

-= N =-

 

[CraigGA]

In regard to the atlo overdubbs missing..........

I think I remember liner notes, from Treasures, where Richard says that he removed some vocal tracks from the mix because of the noise level that became present during cd transfer. That is why I enjoy the remasters, the alto voices are present in the older recordings. Listen to Maybe It's You, from Close to You: all remixed versions (I think there are three) eliminate some vocal part as compared to the original. Sure, the new instruments, except for the bombastic persussion is pleasant, but where are the overdubbs?

I listen to the Carpenters for Karen. Truly, I like Richard's arrangements, but it doesn't prompt me to buy it. Karen's voice is the catalyst. I enjoy a lot of music I do not purchase, but the ones that grab my soul, I must obtain. It is like a romantic dance. Karen's voice is that voice, and today remains to capture my soul. Richard perfectly framed Karen's voice.

Craig

 

[Rick]

That's what I think it is also on the later albums, they were just "going through the motions", with the exception of "Passage" they really did put a lot in to that one.
"Hush" seems to lack that overall inspiration and "America" is fluff without any real muscle. I think both Karen & Richard's illnesses had a lot to do with "Hush" being somewhat lackluster. With "America" I think Karen's heart just was not in to it. I think she was very disappointed at that point because of the shelving of her solo album. Regardless of what the media machine has told us I really think she would have preferred to have the album released instead of working on another Carpenters album.

 

[Rudy]

Well, she did tell Ramone that her solo album was "f***ing great", did she not? I wonder if Made In America would have been any different if the solo album had been released, and either flopped or become a surprise hit?

-= N =-

 

[Michael]

Let me add, that although I do like the earlier albums better than the later ones..... In my opinion, it is still like comparing 24K gold to 12K gold. ALL of it still shines. As this forum's namesake implies: A SONG FOR YOU is the brightest gold.

—Michael

 

[PJ]

Horizon is probably the last of the classic 1970's Album's , Hush was inferior or as Richard has stated too soft , too lacking in killer production that was required in later 1970's.....

Passage is a great Album for different songs , vocals , genres , styles etc with the exception of Man Smarter. Shame that Two Sides and I Just Fall In Love Again were not Singles as these could have been Top 10/ Top 20 hits and pushed this Album's sales

The most underrated Album(s) without doubt are the two Christmas Albums in 1978 and 1984 , these have taken on a life of their own ......

Christmas Albums were out of favour in the 1970's , something your parents and grandparents bought / listened to .....A&M really failed to promote these sets in USA and Worldwide , these Albums have still not charted in UK Top 100 Album Charts since release.......!!

Richard's concept , arrangements/ production along with Billy May and Peter Knight's arranged tracks are still today brilliant music works and seen as essentials within Carpenters canon plus Karen's sublime vocals as highlights of her Career

Carpenters Fans can enjoy the less Christmas type songs such as Ave Maria , Little Altar Boy and He Came Here For Me out of the season.

Later Albums released after Karen's death are very enjoyable , but are clearly compromises from various recording dates & sources. Hopefully there will be further Rarities releases and perhaps one more Studio Album with the best tracks from the Archives released at last

Peter....preparing for Christmas Albums tracks......

 

[Rick]

Let me add, that although I do like the earlier albums better than the later ones..... In my opinion, it is still like comparing 24K gold to 12K gold. ALL of it still shines. As this forum's namesake implies: A SONG FOR YOU is the brightest gold.

Michael

Great analogy I agree 100 %

 

[pogWo4life]

"Happy" is a great song that I never listened to at first. I discovered that song while listening to Radio Free A&M on Live365 during a POG chat on another site. It was about the end of the chat when "happy" came on and I thought it was a really nice song. Then I realized that I had the record and never listened to that particular song on the record.

 

[CraigGA]

I have always liked the verses to Happy, but the chorus is too sweet and child like with the 'falling in love with you' repetative phrase and orchestration to match. Karen could make any song have purpose.

Craig