most underrated Carpenters album/single
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Happy would have been a great radio Single in Summer 1975 , this would have contrasted with Only Yesterday and had A&M / Carpenters
released this in June 1975 , Horizon would have been Top 3 mininum that Summer
Desperado would have been a great follow up -perhaps a Double A single with Solitaire and even I'm Caught Between as a fifth Single would have concluded the year on a high note
I do think that at various times A&M / Carpenters selected several dubious choices of Singles that impacted adversely on Albums , Sales and Chart Positions
released this in June 1975 , Horizon would have been Top 3 mininum that Summer
Desperado would have been a great follow up -perhaps a Double A single with Solitaire and even I'm Caught Between as a fifth Single would have concluded the year on a high note
I do think that at various times A&M / Carpenters selected several dubious choices of Singles that impacted adversely on Albums , Sales and Chart Positions
"Happy" has always been a favorite of mine also. I like the vocal mix and the instrumental solo at the end. It was an interesting and slightly different song for the Carpenters. I always felt "Desperado" would have been a stronger single than "Solitaire" if only for the reason that it is an Eagles song and the Eagles were extremely hot in 1975.
Although in an earlier post I did say "Hush" is one of the Carp's weaker albums- I also think it's a fairly good album. Tracks I think are outstanding from "Hush are; "Boat To Sail", "There's A Kind Of Hush", "Can't Smile Without You", "Breaking Up Is Hard To Do". I also like "Goofus" for it's offbeat flare- thre's some interesting timing and sounds in this song. It's a song from the 30's updated for the 70's.
Although in an earlier post I did say "Hush" is one of the Carp's weaker albums- I also think it's a fairly good album. Tracks I think are outstanding from "Hush are; "Boat To Sail", "There's A Kind Of Hush", "Can't Smile Without You", "Breaking Up Is Hard To Do". I also like "Goofus" for it's offbeat flare- thre's some interesting timing and sounds in this song. It's a song from the 30's updated for the 70's.
i remember clearly when passages was released. it was such a departure, and, like most things carpenters, was not realized for the genius it contained. i've always been a sucker for the ballads, so "don't cry" (minus the intro) and "i just fall" were my favorites. i think they should have included "you're the one" as well and not reduced it to a coin toss. i still believe those latter two would have done very well as singles. the same logic that didn't realize that "top of the world" wouldn't be a hit single until after it succeeded in japan seems to have dominated many of the choices.
"don't cry" was quite ahead of its time in the use of a full live recording. i would have loved to see karen give madonna run for her money on that soundrack she evenutally did. LOL
by the time of passages release, the carpenters certainly had more money than they every needed so the artistic desire to branch out was understandable. however, i would have preferred a steady stream of the types of songs that achieved the most success with the usual experimentation within the album tracks. creating an entire album of new direction was not a very good move commercially from my standpoint. and, as i recall, passages has been the poorest seller commercially.
but, i think a lot of what was happening reflects the sad realities of karen's up and down bouts with anorexia. i don't think either karen or richard really had a strong sense of self (a la celine dion "i know who i am, i know what i want") until later. and, if the books are to be believed, richard never really acknowledged his role in contributing to karen's illness, especially back then.
"don't cry" was quite ahead of its time in the use of a full live recording. i would have loved to see karen give madonna run for her money on that soundrack she evenutally did. LOL
by the time of passages release, the carpenters certainly had more money than they every needed so the artistic desire to branch out was understandable. however, i would have preferred a steady stream of the types of songs that achieved the most success with the usual experimentation within the album tracks. creating an entire album of new direction was not a very good move commercially from my standpoint. and, as i recall, passages has been the poorest seller commercially.
but, i think a lot of what was happening reflects the sad realities of karen's up and down bouts with anorexia. i don't think either karen or richard really had a strong sense of self (a la celine dion "i know who i am, i know what i want") until later. and, if the books are to be believed, richard never really acknowledged his role in contributing to karen's illness, especially back then.
Geographer
Well-Known Member
Swim wrote:
How could "Richard acknowledge his role in contributing to Karen's illness" in 1977 or any other time when Richard had absolutely no control over Karen's illness? The only one responsible for Karen's illness is Karen. I can't believe how popular it is to blame Richard for somehow killing Karen. In fact, if there was ANYONE out there trying to SAVE Karen it was Richard, "if the books are to be believed." They (the Carpenter circle) didn't even know what was wrong with Karen or even what Anorexia was. How could they have knowingly "contribute" to her illness? Were they suppose to all-of-a-sudden say, "gee, maybe the way we are as human beings is making Karen sick, so we better stop being ourselves and then Karen will get well?" Gee, if we were to follow that logic then Karen must have contributed to Richards drug habit. Maybe Karen never acknowledged her "contribution" to Richard's chemical dependency.
Heck! We should just all blame others for our problems. How easy is that!
All of this blaming of Richard, Agnes, and to some extent Harold, is really unfair, distasteful, and quite cruel. Do people actually say these things to Richard's face?
It is interesting, to say the least (frieghtening for the most part), that some here are scolded for discussing the Carpenters in a religious light, while others practically blame Richard for killing Karen and nothing is ever said.
I, for one, am greatful to Richard for recognizing Karen's talent, sharing his spotlight so that all of us can enjoy her singing, and doing a fantastic job showcasing her spectacular voice for all the world to hear in perfect context.
Criticize Richard's musical decisions, his writing, arrangements, orchestration, choices in automobiles, whatever. I have done just that in several other posts. But, a good general "rule" is that if we won't say it to his face, we shouldn't post it here.
How could "Richard acknowledge his role in contributing to Karen's illness" in 1977 or any other time when Richard had absolutely no control over Karen's illness? The only one responsible for Karen's illness is Karen. I can't believe how popular it is to blame Richard for somehow killing Karen. In fact, if there was ANYONE out there trying to SAVE Karen it was Richard, "if the books are to be believed." They (the Carpenter circle) didn't even know what was wrong with Karen or even what Anorexia was. How could they have knowingly "contribute" to her illness? Were they suppose to all-of-a-sudden say, "gee, maybe the way we are as human beings is making Karen sick, so we better stop being ourselves and then Karen will get well?" Gee, if we were to follow that logic then Karen must have contributed to Richards drug habit. Maybe Karen never acknowledged her "contribution" to Richard's chemical dependency.
Heck! We should just all blame others for our problems. How easy is that!
All of this blaming of Richard, Agnes, and to some extent Harold, is really unfair, distasteful, and quite cruel. Do people actually say these things to Richard's face?
It is interesting, to say the least (frieghtening for the most part), that some here are scolded for discussing the Carpenters in a religious light, while others practically blame Richard for killing Karen and nothing is ever said.
I, for one, am greatful to Richard for recognizing Karen's talent, sharing his spotlight so that all of us can enjoy her singing, and doing a fantastic job showcasing her spectacular voice for all the world to hear in perfect context.
Criticize Richard's musical decisions, his writing, arrangements, orchestration, choices in automobiles, whatever. I have done just that in several other posts. But, a good general "rule" is that if we won't say it to his face, we shouldn't post it here.
shannon,
your comments suggest that you probably misunderstood my intent and the words i used. "contributed" does not equal blame, in my book. my family's acoholic patterns contributed to my additictive tendencies but did not result in my choosing to drink. the controlling patterns that were discussed quite openly in several published accounts about the carpenters suggest that a family pattern was at work in pressuring karen (and richard as well).
only karen is responsible for how she abused her body. and, back then, little was known about anorexia. however, reports suggested that karen tried to get through to her family along with her counselor. but we still had the whole refusal to to deal with it by the family.
the consensus view has been that both the record label and the family failed to see karen's voice as a lifetime success, and succumbed to the pressure to keep churning out records. given the sheer genius of richard, and his clearly "ahead of his time" view, i find it sad that there was a need to "break away" from the prevailing view about the carpenters at the time.
so, in commenting on passages, i think they were trying to prove something at the time that didn't really need to be proven.
i thought this forum was for discussing and analyzing the carpenters music and the things that shaped them. perhaps i misunderstood. evaluating the decisions of the past is not "criticizing" nor pretending to assign blame. but i do think it helpful to look at the forces that (possibly) shaped their music.
your comments suggest that you probably misunderstood my intent and the words i used. "contributed" does not equal blame, in my book. my family's acoholic patterns contributed to my additictive tendencies but did not result in my choosing to drink. the controlling patterns that were discussed quite openly in several published accounts about the carpenters suggest that a family pattern was at work in pressuring karen (and richard as well).
only karen is responsible for how she abused her body. and, back then, little was known about anorexia. however, reports suggested that karen tried to get through to her family along with her counselor. but we still had the whole refusal to to deal with it by the family.
the consensus view has been that both the record label and the family failed to see karen's voice as a lifetime success, and succumbed to the pressure to keep churning out records. given the sheer genius of richard, and his clearly "ahead of his time" view, i find it sad that there was a need to "break away" from the prevailing view about the carpenters at the time.
so, in commenting on passages, i think they were trying to prove something at the time that didn't really need to be proven.
i thought this forum was for discussing and analyzing the carpenters music and the things that shaped them. perhaps i misunderstood. evaluating the decisions of the past is not "criticizing" nor pretending to assign blame. but i do think it helpful to look at the forces that (possibly) shaped their music.
SwimAMile said:
The Carpenters' biggest 'public' problem when PASSAGES was released was their image. They'd become perceived as a 'goody-four-shoes' to quote Richard - bland, antiseptic, suburban, you get the picture. Their initial success was made against the tide, and after a string of monster albums and singles, they simply weren't able to sustain that level. A KIND OF HUSH, their prior album had only managed to hit #33 on Billboard's chart - their worst performer to date. Radio had begun to get more independent as Program Directors decided to drop playing Carpenters music in their rotations. PASSAGES was an attempt to negate all of that by branching out into other areas (Broadway - 'Evita', hard rock - 'Occupants', etc.). As you've mentioned, fans of the group were quite comfortable withe the sound they'd made over the years and wanted more, so to put it in political terms, PASSAGES actually ended up angering the 'base', while failing to capture the 'undecideds.' Thus we get fans saying things like 'They should have included "You're The One"' and other second-guessing attempts -- which IS what this Forum is about.
Exactly right - and, by the way, welcome to the A&M Corner.
It's easy to get caught up in the anger and frustration over losing Karen, thus it's easy to attempt to try to explain it all away with our theories. It's our own defense mechanism trying to take control of a situation that we really have no control over. But in this case there are no easy answers.
Harry
NP: Carpenters ESSENTIAL box set
harry,
i was around when passages was released (the first time LOL) and i remember well the controversy. i also remember being one of those fans who felt i hadn't gotten enough of what made them so popular.
You wrote: It's easy to get caught up in the anger and frustration over losing Karen, thus it's easy to attempt to try to explain it all away with our theories. It's our own defense mechanism trying to take control of a situation that we really have no control over. But in this case there are no easy answers.
my reaction to karen's death has always been one of sadness. just as karen had wanted to speak out about anorexia, i had hoped that her death would affect how the music industry views long-term talent. but, i suppose that's rather unrealistic.
but, back to passages, i would have loved to see karen give madonna a run for her money on the soundtrack. karen nailed don't cry in a way madonna could never do.
do we know of any other confirmed recrodings from the passages sessions that were not used??????
i was around when passages was released (the first time LOL) and i remember well the controversy. i also remember being one of those fans who felt i hadn't gotten enough of what made them so popular.
You wrote: It's easy to get caught up in the anger and frustration over losing Karen, thus it's easy to attempt to try to explain it all away with our theories. It's our own defense mechanism trying to take control of a situation that we really have no control over. But in this case there are no easy answers.
my reaction to karen's death has always been one of sadness. just as karen had wanted to speak out about anorexia, i had hoped that her death would affect how the music industry views long-term talent. but, i suppose that's rather unrealistic.
but, back to passages, i would have loved to see karen give madonna a run for her money on the soundtrack. karen nailed don't cry in a way madonna could never do.
do we know of any other confirmed recrodings from the passages sessions that were not used??????
I was too young to know of any controversy surrounding Passage--the only thing I faintly remember was a review, in a magazine, saying that it was one of their more exciting albums. Back then, I pretty much liked everything new by any of my favorite artists, but at that point in my life, I was moving away from their type of music into some others (fusion jazz, R&B/funk/disco, Latin music, etc.), and I played Passage quite regularly, a lot more than I had many of the previous Carpenters albums. Still remains a favorite for me, and I wish they'd done another like it!
-= N =-
-= N =-
I bought "Passage" in the week it was released. I loved it (and still do to this day) from beginning to end. I was not disappointed at all that the Carpenters steered away from their formula, as a matter of fact I was delighted- because at that point the Carpenters needed a change in sound. We already heard "Rainy Days And Mondays" and that type of song countless times from K&R, I wanted more of a challenge from them and that's what "Passage" gave us.
As Harry said the problem with the Carpenters at that time was an image thing- not the music. I feel if they didn't have that image problem "Passage" would have been a much bigger seller.
As Harry said the problem with the Carpenters at that time was an image thing- not the music. I feel if they didn't have that image problem "Passage" would have been a much bigger seller.
SWIM A MILE-In response to your question-yes,there is approximately an album's worth of PASSAGE outtakes sitting in the vaults right now.I don't know if all those songs are complete,but alot of them are the substandard type(like sweet sweet smile or man smart,woman smarter).And,for the record,there are approximately 7 or 8 remaining outtakes from A KIND OF HUSH,about 10 outtakes from MADE IN AMERICA,and 7 or 8 from the final session in 1982.There are also several(maybe 5-7) from the 1978 session.(the proposed follow-up to CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT).
Really?? All those songs to look forward to!! By the way, how does one really know this information about the number of outtakes? Is it just rumor? Or, has it been officially documented someone on file. I just don't want to get high hopes and then never really hear these songs after all.
The story is that there was a list of Carpenters selections that no-one had ever heard of in A&M's vaults that was "leaked" to the public. It was a truly long list, and the from what I've learned, many of these were catalogued as songs that had been worked on -- even tiny fragments and outtakes -- committed to tape, and put on the list. According to Richard, most of these are indeed fragments and outtakes, not full songs -- many not even including Karen's vocals. It was just thorough cataloging of everything done in the studios and on the tapes.
If anything, there might be a few more songs that Richard could somehow work his magic on - many of these have been heard making the rounds on the internet as TV appearances, but I wouldn't look for an additional 6 albums! It's just not gonna happen.
Harry
...being a realist, online...
If anything, there might be a few more songs that Richard could somehow work his magic on - many of these have been heard making the rounds on the internet as TV appearances, but I wouldn't look for an additional 6 albums! It's just not gonna happen.
Harry
...being a realist, online...
From what I've heard other artists say in interviews, just having these fragments can turn into a nightmare--some fans, not understanding that these are in any shape or form usable, insist that there is a lot of unreleased material that deserves to see the light of day, and refuse to understand why it won't happen. It happens with just about any artist who has made more than a half dozen albums, so it is in no way unique to Carpenters.
It costs money for someone to go back in, catalog all of these oddities, locate the actual source tapes, etc. Not to mention how many dozens of studio hours just to make these table scraps presentable. And the final fact remains that, if the artist or producer never felt they were worth completing and releasing originally, why release them now?
And let's face it--any creative artist or band will record spontaneous jams, fragments, riffs, demos, etc. that may one day turn into a completed song. It's just the way the artists work, part of their job. No artist will walk in with a completed work and "just record it" at the drop of a hat. The whole process of recording is equal parts inspiration, experimentation, trial and (much) error, frustration, and elation.
-= N =-
It costs money for someone to go back in, catalog all of these oddities, locate the actual source tapes, etc. Not to mention how many dozens of studio hours just to make these table scraps presentable. And the final fact remains that, if the artist or producer never felt they were worth completing and releasing originally, why release them now?
And let's face it--any creative artist or band will record spontaneous jams, fragments, riffs, demos, etc. that may one day turn into a completed song. It's just the way the artists work, part of their job. No artist will walk in with a completed work and "just record it" at the drop of a hat. The whole process of recording is equal parts inspiration, experimentation, trial and (much) error, frustration, and elation.
-= N =-
CraigGA
Well-Known Member
back to Passage............
I feel that one of the reasons the Carpenters still have an appeal is that their music is not necessarily date stamped. It is timeless. And, Passage maintains this character.
B'wana She No Home is a good solid jazz/pop tune in any decade. I think I remember that Leon Russell is given credit to the piano in this piece.
Sweet Sweet Smile is a cute country song that introduces Juice Newton.
Don't Cry... was introduced in this project the first year it was on Broadway.
All You Get From Love... is a nice tune (would have done better if dirty old shame was not in the lyrics) and reflects the Carpenters standard style.
Two Sides is a great song that deals with inner struggle and would have been great released as a single before Torn Between Two Lovers was released(a non Carpenters tune dealing with the same subject matter). I believe Lee Ritenior is credited as a studio musician in this song.
Just Fall in Love Again is a great song with classical influences in a pop genre.
So, this album not only contains good solid music, but deals with deep subject matters, and the selections were good enough for others to release as singles and it reflected great musicians of the time. My only complaint is that it needed two more songs!
It is a solid album. It's weak sales is from the damage done from A Kind of Hush. That album locked them into the bland image given from critics.
(Both albums, as I remember, were promoted just as well as Horizon, although it had shortcomings being introduced after two hit singles and not during.)
So, Passage explored all styles of music and is one of my favorites for it showcases Richard and Karen as versitle musicians and explores music creativity, which is a responsibility for good artists.
Craig
I feel that one of the reasons the Carpenters still have an appeal is that their music is not necessarily date stamped. It is timeless. And, Passage maintains this character.
B'wana She No Home is a good solid jazz/pop tune in any decade. I think I remember that Leon Russell is given credit to the piano in this piece.
Sweet Sweet Smile is a cute country song that introduces Juice Newton.
Don't Cry... was introduced in this project the first year it was on Broadway.
All You Get From Love... is a nice tune (would have done better if dirty old shame was not in the lyrics) and reflects the Carpenters standard style.
Two Sides is a great song that deals with inner struggle and would have been great released as a single before Torn Between Two Lovers was released(a non Carpenters tune dealing with the same subject matter). I believe Lee Ritenior is credited as a studio musician in this song.
Just Fall in Love Again is a great song with classical influences in a pop genre.
So, this album not only contains good solid music, but deals with deep subject matters, and the selections were good enough for others to release as singles and it reflected great musicians of the time. My only complaint is that it needed two more songs!
It is a solid album. It's weak sales is from the damage done from A Kind of Hush. That album locked them into the bland image given from critics.
(Both albums, as I remember, were promoted just as well as Horizon, although it had shortcomings being introduced after two hit singles and not during.)
So, Passage explored all styles of music and is one of my favorites for it showcases Richard and Karen as versitle musicians and explores music creativity, which is a responsibility for good artists.
Craig
Michael-As I explained in detail on the previous post "Essential collection reviews",I was able to get ahold of A&M's master catalog list ,which detailed all of the unreleased tracks that were cataloged-and the album session or year they were recorded.(Believe it or not,FROM THIS MOMENT ON and TRYING TO GET THE FEELING,from INTERPRETATIONS,were never cataloged and weren't on the master list.If they hadn't been released ,we never would have known they existed!)The situation with most of these songs is a scenario of which Karen and Richard would record a certain song,take it through the production process,and then decided the song didn't sound right or wasn't good enough -and consequently opted to keep it shelved.Then,there are certain songs(possibly very good songs)where karen recorded a test vocal with piano,bass and drums-but never rerecorded a finished vocal.On many of these tapes with test vocals,there are usually backround noises,or people talking in the backround.(for obvious reasons,those wouldn't be releasable).During a press interview for VOICE OF THE HEART in 1983,Richard stated that there was enough material for 1 more album,and a Christmas album.This came to fruition with LOVELINES and OLD FASHIONED CHRISTMAS,respectively.It was clear all the back to 1983 as to what would be released.
Whilst Richard did refer in 1983 to future Albums and unreleased Material , this has changed several times...... 
In 1989 Richard in UK Interview stated there was Material for several extra Albums , that required further work to complete , including some some from TV / Radio sources.
In 1993 BBC Special , Richard changed his mind "The cupboard is bare " in response to further new Material !
Ray Coleman did state that Richard's Archive has many releasable tracks and Rarities throughout Carpenters career.Dependent on Richard's attitude , Record Company support etc -further releases were possible.
Personally I believe Richard could release another excellent Studio Album , two Rarities Sets and some unissued Live Material Albums during the next decade.......when Carpenters have a supportive Record Company
In 1989 Richard in UK Interview stated there was Material for several extra Albums , that required further work to complete , including some some from TV / Radio sources.
In 1993 BBC Special , Richard changed his mind "The cupboard is bare " in response to further new Material !
Ray Coleman did state that Richard's Archive has many releasable tracks and Rarities throughout Carpenters career.Dependent on Richard's attitude , Record Company support etc -further releases were possible.
Personally I believe Richard could release another excellent Studio Album , two Rarities Sets and some unissued Live Material Albums during the next decade.......when Carpenters have a supportive Record Company
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