Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and The Carpenters

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With the recent announcement of the nomination of Neil Diamond and Donna Summer for induction into the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame,once again the question must be asked: Why not Rich and Karen?

In my opinion, it is long overdue. Most of the greatest modern female singers in ALL genres often list Karen as an influence. Their sales during their heyday were only surpassed by WINGS and Elton John. Richard's arrangements have been praised by the best of the best of the Rock & Pop community and are being studied in music schools all over the world. Most consider "Goodbye To Love" the first true "Power Ballad", a staple of Rock and Pop even to this day. The list of reasons goes on and on.



So,The question is: Why? Why ABBA a few years back, Neil and Donna now, but not The Carpenters?

My theory goes down to simple politics, both literally in figuratively.

For all the things we know now about Rich & Karen's lives and how complicated they truly were,there are some who still see them as "too good'. Aside from Rich's Quaalude problems or Karen's issues, The Carps never did illegal drugs, you never heard of wild sex orgies involving either of them, or hotel rooms being destroyed or diva like behavior on either of their part. They didn't hang out with the "cool" people at Studio 54, or hob nob with the glitterati. For the most part,they were just average,normal people from Downey, California, They didn't live the "lifestyle". That alone, in the minds of the elite of the Rock Community,still disqualifies them as deserving of official validation. If that's the case,pardon my language,that's bulls--t.

Also,It is well known that The Carpenter family over the years have had Republican ties. Richard has performed at CPAC functions in recent years. The Carps performed at The White House for Richard Nixon during Watergate. Even Tom Burris,Karen's Ex, worked for The Reagan Administration. It is common knowledge that the entertainment community is predominately Liberal Democrat. It would not surprise me that even that is playing a factor in the decision to overlook the Carpenters for inclusion.

Again, If that's the case,that is also bulls--t.

We lost Karen in 1983. Richard is 63 years old. God willing,with good health and a little luck, he will be around for another couple decades. However, I hope that the music industry wakes up before we lose them both. For Karen, I would love to see Richard witness and get what they both wanted and always sought, Official recognition of their peers for their contribution to Rock and Pop music. Heck, to be nominated would be a validating honor. They are owed that tenfold.

Thoughts?
 
As much as I admire the legacy of the Carpenters, they will never be in the rock & roll hall of fame. Pop acts just do not merit praise in the eyes of the hall. There have been many articles about the bands that are included. There is a large bias to the founder of Rolling Stone. This hall is his baby and he is the one that approves induction. Plus, New York artists have a big advantage.

If I started to name the bands that have never even been nominated, it is mind blowing. However, most of them have the same anchor around their neck. They were very successful pop acts. The more mass appeal you were, the less chance you'll get into the rock & roll hall of fame. Just look at the success Neil Diamond has achieved. It was not until he recorded his last album with rock producer Rick Rubin that he even made the nominee list.

Simply, Karen & Richard were just to popular and accepted by all ages to be included. It's a shame, since I really believe that Richard & Tony Peluso established the power rock ballad with "Goodbye to love".
 
The more mass appeal you were, the less chance you'll get into the rock & roll hall of fame.
I'm sorry, but that's just not true. If you look at the list of who IS in the hall of fame, you'll see some of the biggest mass appeal artists in history.

Carpenters and Neil Diamond aren't included because they're considered "soft pop," not "rock and roll." It's just as simple as that. I do agree that "Goodbye to Love" was arguably the first modern power ballad, but that guitar solo is a one-of-a-kind item in their entire recorded output.

If there was a "pop music hall of fame," Carpenters would be one of the inaugural inductees.
 
Just FYI, they only announced the nominees for induction. They have not selected this years winners. So, Neil Diamond & Donna Summer are just nominated for induction.
 
JAZZ4JEFF said:
Just FYI, they only announced the nominees for induction. They have not selected this years winners. So, Neil Diamond & Donna Summer are just nominated for induction.

I clearly misunderstood. My bad. :oops:

However...the Carpenters should be at least considered. However,sadly...they probably won't. At least in Richard Carpenter's life time. :sad:
 
Mike, is it possible for you to include the board name of the person u are quoting? It makes it hard to know who u r quoting. I've seen u do this before. Thank-you

....mobile posting, online...
 
I'll try to remember to do that. There's another board I post on where it picks that info up automatically -- and I think Rudy is considering upgrading our software here, so maybe that function will be part of the upgrade.
 
In the interest of full disclosure, I will state upfront that I am a charter member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum and visit it twice a year. I have been there since the beginning and look forward each year to the nominee list and eventual inductees.

There have been "WTF?" names on the list every year and an even longer list of worthy (IMO) acts that have never been mentioned or considered. Some nominees/inductees I came to understand after a bit of research. Others, I still have no idea how they made the cut. It is what it is.

However, I sincerely believe that it is not a personal bias against the Carpenters (or myriad other deserving acts) as much as it is a bias toward a short list of acts that the Hall of Fame powers-that-be seem to favor. Is that fair? Not really. But it's not some big conspiracy theory either which is what always seems to get thrown around every year when the announcement is made. (Not so much here, but on several other message boards I frequent.)

The Carpenters will most likely be inducted (or a least nominated) one day. It will probably just not be for awhile.
 
JAZZ4JEFF said:
If I started to name the bands that have never even been nominated, it is mind blowing. However, most of them have the same anchor around their neck. They were very successful pop acts.

Why didn't that stop them to include ABBA and Donna Summer, who were VERY successful?
 
Mike Blakesley said:
I'll try to remember to do that. There's another board I post on where it picks that info up automatically -- and I think Rudy is considering upgrading our software here, so maybe that function will be part of the upgrade.

This IS automatical. Can't see why it doesn't work with you!!
 
Actorman said:
However, I sincerely believe that it is not a personal bias against the Carpenters (or myriad other deserving acts) as much as it is a bias toward a short list of acts that the Hall of Fame powers-that-be seem to favor. Is that fair? Not really.

Isn't Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame a private institute? I read anyone can found a "hall" alike. So there doesn't seem to be any point in criticizing their choices, they are up to do whatever they feel like.
 
goodjeans said:
...so it really isn't all about the music?

I just took a look at the other people nominated. WTF?

I mean, no offense to any of those nominated...but tell me HOW LL Cool J or Chic contributed anything lasting to rock and roll?

It's not about the music. It's about being in the right clique. If the right people see you as cool, you get nominated. If you happen to be a favorite of the right people in that group,you get inducted. It's essentially a high school mentality.

While I doubt it's a conspiracy on any one person or groups' part, one can't deny the fact there IS a bias against The Carpenters and others that keeps them from even being considered for the RRHOF. When LL Cool J (whom I actually like BTW), a former Rap star who is more of a well known actor than he is a musician these days can get a nod and not a group whose music has become a part of our pop culture fabric, then there is something out of whack.

Maybe there should be an alternative to the RRHOF , that actually rewards an artist or a group based on MUSICAL contributions and not their "COOL FACTOR". Maybe a "POPULAR MUSIC HALL OF FAME" ?

:)
 
manofsteel1979 said:
I mean, no offense to any of those nominated...but tell me HOW LL Cool J or Chic contributed anything lasting to rock and roll?

I'd have to strongly disagree there. Chic contained Nile Rodgers, one of the best producers to ever twist a knob; they had the best selling single in the history of Atlantic Records ("Le Freak"); they were one of the few groups who actually put out quality music with a unique sound during the disco era. They also had Tony Thompson, one of the best drummers ever who played on many a rock record as a studio musician, and of course Bernard Edwards on bass, who contributed some of the funkiest bass lines ever put to wax.

LL Cool J -- well, he's not my cup of tea at all, but he is one of the most well known rap artists and laid the foundation for a myriad of other artists who came after him. He was also one of the first rappers to cross over into another facet of the entertainment business (acting) thus paving the way for others to follow that path too. Respect him or not, he was a groundbreaker. Whether you like rap or not, it IS a driving force in rock music today, has been responsible for hundreds of millions of record sales, and has been embraced by lots of rock bands. (Linkin Park, anyone?)

None of this is intended to diminish the Carpenters' talent, or their contributions to pop music. It's just that if I was making a list of rock and roll artists, they're one of the last names I would consider because their music just doesn't seem like rock and roll to me. That's just my 2 cents.
 
I'm rooting for Donna Summer. She's a long shot, but did a lot for music in the 70's and 80's and still performs today. Donna Summer has TALENT. This will be Donna's 3rd nomination, and I hope she finally gets in this year.
 
Having just gone over the list of all the inductees to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame over the years, the only act I can see there that might make me think "Why not the Carpenters?" is ABBA.

But I'd be willing to bet that if ABBA had to stand only on its hit records and didn't have the roaring success of the "Mamma Mia" stage show and movie in the past decade, they wouldn't be there, either.

So where, logically, where would that leave Karen and Richard? What could you point to that would argue that they belong in the category of "rock and roll", much less in that genre's Hall of Fame?

Even in the case of one of this year's nominees, Neil Diamond, you can dial the wayback machine to the point where he was recording rock and roll songs (Cherry, Cherry...Thank The Lord For The Nighttime...You Got To Me) and writing them for other artists (I'm A Believer...which hit for two different groups in two different decades 30 years apart).

But Carpenters? I'll agree with manofsteel: Tony Peluso's guitar solo on "Goodbye To Love"...Richard essentially invented the power ballad with that one. But then what? "Sing"? "Please Mr. Postman"?

"Goofus"?

Certainly image works against K&R. And among those who are too young to remember when they were played on hit radio?

You really wanna know?

I asked around the TV station I work at.

Those 40 and under think of one thing when they think of Carpenters: The Christmas Portrait LP, Norman Rockwell cover and all.

They're lumped in with Andy Williams, Bing Crosby and Fred Waring's Pennsylvanians...an act that gets played between Thanksgiving and December 25.

Mike Blakesley hit it on the head: The proper place would be a Pop Music Hall of Fame.
 
manofsteel1979 said:
I mean, no offense to any of those nominated...but tell me HOW LL Cool J or Chic contributed anything lasting to rock and roll?

I can understand the frustration but is this really necessary? To my ears (and to my generation), it's quite obvious that both made lasting contributions to the musical landscape. Frankly, the same could be said of Carpenters. While I love Karen's voice and Richard's background arrangements, what have they contributed to the musical landscape? What about Neil Diamond?

See? Harder when the shoe's on the other foot...:wink:

Ed
 
And aside from that, nothing too coincidental w/ Rock, either, when you really think about artists more truer to that genre...

A "Pop Music Hall Of Fame", I know--especially w/ the Brittany's & Lady Gaga's of the day--would be the best place for "a Karen & Richard", I agree, albeit being "over-crowded"...!



Dave :winkgrin:
 
Michael Hagerty said:
Having just gone over the list of all the inductees to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame over the years, the only act I can see there that might make me think "Why not the Carpenters?" is ABBA.

But I'd be willing to bet that if ABBA had to stand only on its hit records and didn't have the roaring success of the "Mamma Mia" stage show and movie in the past decade, they wouldn't be there, either.

Which is kinda my point. ABBA, for the longest time were not considered in the "cool kids club". Suddenly "MAMMA MIA" hits,BAM! suddenly they are "cool" and then they get inducted. For all of Neil's accomplishment,If he hadn't recorded the album with Rick Rubin,he still would not have been considered either.

Don't get me wrong. I don't begrudge anyone who gets in the RRHOF,nor do I lose sleep over who or who doesn't get considered. I just find it kinda perplexing when an organization who claims to make it's choices based on only talent and contributions to Rock and Pop clearly doesn't follow through, and doesn't even look at some very deserving people. Sure, maybe the Carps shouldn't be in the RRHOF, but they should have least been nominated by now. Like they say,"It's an honor to be nominated".

However, if in 20 years or so, Britney Spears,or Gaga are nominated and the Carps STILL have not been nominated, I will storm the Bastille!! Who's with me? :wink:
 
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