Stuck on Véronique

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Harry

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Part of a recent thread dealt with Richard's production of other artists' albums. Brought up was Scott Grimes and Akiko, two I was familiar with, and Véronique, one I was not familiar with. I'd heard a sample of two of the Véronique tracks over at the old Road Ode site, and to be honest, they just didn't do anything for me at the time. Maybe it was the Internet connection or the RealAudio, but I've now certainly changed my mind.

As one of our resident Canadians, Murray, pointed out in that older thread that Véronique had been an established personality in French Quebec and was finally breaking out into the rest of Canada as well with an English-language album on A&M, Borderline. Teamed with Richard Carpenter in 1989, they produced Véronique (CD-9154), a second English-language album that somehow failed to get wide distribution in Canada, let alone making it to the States. From what's been mentioned, only between 10 and 15 thousand copies were produced, over all formats.

Having now obtained a copy of the album, just out of curiosity, I've actually become quite taken with it. As described, musically it falls somewhere between the Akiko and the Scott Grimes albums. I suppose part of the reason that I wasn't all that gung-ho about seeking this one out is that I wasn't all that thrilled with either Akiko or Scott Grimes. Akiko came off as too much of an attempt to re-create Carpenters with her almost-spooky Karen-like voice. Scott Grimes just never appealed to me. Some of Richard's backing vocals made it palatable, but overall, I just didn't care for Grimes nasally voice. So the rationale must have been: "Well if those two are not so good, then how can a failed album that never got wide distribution be any good?" Wrong assumption.

On first listen to the album, I was somewhat taken with the updated take on the old Gamble and Huff song, "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me." Richard and Véronique's backing vocals were just the right touch to frame this song. The next track, "House Of Love", was new to me. From what I've learned, it and the prior track were both released as singles, with a lot of positive studio buzz about "House Of Love." It's an odd song to my ears -- not offensive, just kind of halting in its main melody-line. Hearing this song alone would not have initially swayed me to seek out this album. Next up is "Just Another Dream." This one DID catch my ears - in a big way. It's one of those "Hey, that's really a good, catchy tune, play it again", kind of songs. I've likened it's structure a bit to the old Carpenters take on "Hurting Each Other", with the kind of dark lyrics floating through a really catchy tune. This has become a real favorite of mine. So much so that I actually tried to do some research on the songwriter, listed as Ron Jankowski. The song is listed as being published by Walt Disney Music (ASCAP), so I checked out the ASCAP database. There is a Ronald Jankowski listed there, but not this song, nor the two others he contributed to the Véronique album. Several were listed as "cues" so I assume that he'd done some movie or TV-composing work, perhaps for Walt Disney, and these may have been his attempts at pop-song writing. Too bad this album didn't make it happen for him. All three of the songs he contributed to this album are quite catchy.

But wait, there's more. "All My Tomorrows", the next track, is one of those songs that sneaks up on you AFTER you've heard it a couple of times. Up next is "I Want To Get Close To You." With a title like that, there had to be some jokes in the studio regarding the "Close To You" part, what with Richard's involvement. This is no Bacharach tune, but like the previous song, it kind of sneaks up on you days later as you find yourself humming it.

ABBA's Benny Anderson and Bjorn Ulvaeus provided the next tune, "One Of Us", a single for ABBA back in the early '80s. I find I like this arrangement better than the original, and is another one of those haunting songs.

Great backing vocals from Richard and Véronique enhance the next track, "A Touch Of Paradise", much like some of the early work Richard and Karen did on their early albums, with many parts doubled and tripled, especially as the song is fading.

The two additional Ron Jankowski songs follow next, "Falling In Line" and "What Kind Of Love." Again these songs have tremendously catchy choruses that hook the listener almost immediately, and again the overdubbed vocals really enhance the songs.

The last two are the two I heard over at RoadOde. "Angel In My Eyes" has a "Please Mr. Postman"-kind of arrangement to it. The song was written by Steven Tracy and sometimes Richard Carpenter collaborator, Pamela Phillips-Oland. She and Richard wrote the final track, "All Those Years Ago", which can be heard as an instrumental on Richard's Pianist, Arranger, Composer, Conductor album. As stated by others, it's the most Carpenters-like track on the album, but I find many more instances where had Karen lived, she might have been performing updated '80s-sounding songs like the rest of these.

Richard only plays piano on that final track, leaving the great bulk of the backing instrumentals to synth-programming whiz, Laythan Armor, who also worked on the Grimes album, and contributed to the song-arranging on almost all of the songs on this album. Assisting with the acoustic instruments are some familiar names, Tim May on guitar, Earle Dumler on oboe, and Joel Peskin on sax.

Véronique herself, sounds a lot like Sheena Easton at times. With the vocal overdubbing, she's even remeniscent of the vocal style of The Corrs. No wonder I like this album!

It's truly a shame that Véronique virtually disappeared from existence, and it's a shame that this experience might have halted Richard in his new album production. This one should be heard by all Carpenters fans.

Harry
...stuck in the past, online...
 
Hi Harry,
I bought the Veronique album on its release. I had heard "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" with an English spoken vocal in the center first. Whether in English or French-like the album version- the song is a standout.
I also like "One of Us" and "Angel in your Eyes"- but most of the other songs are cute but nothing special, in my view.
In contrast, I found Akiko's and Scott's albums far better. Akiko has a warm feel to me- especially "China River" and then a very Karen-esque "Only the Angels Know".
Scott Grimes' album is full of great tracks, with "Walkin on the Water" being tops. Great background vocals and arrangement give this a pep earlier Carps had. "Show Me the Way to Your Heart" should have been a Karen song. It had all the makings of a hit. "I Don't Even Mind" comes to my mind as another good one from this set.
In summary, of the three discs, I'd rate Veronique dead last.
Just my opinion.
Mark
PS- Does anyone have the Veronique single of "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" with the English vocal interlude? Is so, please pass it on...
 
mstaft said:
I bought the Veronique album on its release. I had heard "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" with an English spoken vocal in the center first. Whether in English or French-like the album version- the song is a standout.

Hey Mark, where did you hear the version with the English part? On radio in Canada, or the US? If in the latter, then it's possible that promo copies might have been distributed to radio stations in the States. Hmmm...

In summary, of the three discs, I'd rate Veronique dead last.

I prefer Scott Grimes the least of the three. The album does have some good tunes on it, but I just don't care for Scott's voice - too high pitched for my taste. Frankly, he sounds like a chipmunk with sinus congestion! :wink:

I really like the Akiko album a lot. This is how I imagine a Carpenters album would have sounded if Karen had still been alive in 1989. The only thing that kind of spoils it for me, is Akiko's VERY prominent accent on the English tunes. Half the time, I can't understand what she is singing. On the other hand, the Japanese tunes are incredible (especially Rainbow, Rainbow). They sound as if Karen herself had been reincarnated and living in Japan!

Of the three RC produced albums, I find that I listen to Veronique the most. There's just something about her voice that I like. As Harry pointed out, she sound's a lot like Sheena Easton, and I was a HUGE Sheena fan back in the '80's. BTW, that was an impressive review of the album Harry. The only thing you forgot to mention is that Veronique has great legs :!: Did I mention that she used to be a fashion model?

PS- Does anyone have the Veronique single of "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" with the English vocal interlude? Is so, please pass it on...

I found the single at a thrift store a couple of years ago. In addition to the album version, it also contains the English "vocal interlude" version, as well as one called "percussapella". This one is really cool, as it is just vocals and percussion. If I remember correctly, I think you can even hear Richard laugh in the background. I'd be willing to convert them to MP3 for all to hear, but I don't have any place to upload them to. Perhaps Neil can help?...

Murray
 
if karen had lived,she might have recorded updated 80's songs like these.

this is how I imagine a Carpenters album would have sounded if karen had still been alive in 1989.

I definitely do not agree with this premise at all.If karen had lived into the late 1980's, she never would have had success with a typical "80's" album.And,if MADE IN AMERICA is any indication,it would have been a lackluster "80's" album. MADE IN AMERICA is filled with prototype "80's"-style arrangements and 1980's-era synthesysers(which didn't age well over the years!).I sincerely doubt that,circa 1983,Karen and Richard would have made a replica follow-up to MADE IN AMERICA.Thankfully,VOICE OF THE HEART turned out to be an about-face to MIA-and one of Karen's best albums.VOICE OF THE HEART pretty much follows the template of HORIZON.I think if Karen were still alive in 1989,she would have been doing albums like Barry Manilow's PARADISE CAFE,Linda Ronstadt's WHAT'S NEW and Natalie Cole's UNFORGETTABLE.
 
mstaft said:
In summary, of the three discs, I'd rate Veronique dead last.
Just my opinion.

Something we're all entitled to. If you've not listened to Véronique for awhile, give it another spin. I'll do the same with Scott Grimes to see if my opinion changes with time. It's been ages since I really gave it a fair chance.

Murray said:
The only thing you forgot to mention is that Veronique has great legs!

It's hard to tell from just an album, though! But thanks to the video that Murray sent me, I heartily concur.

Murray said:
I found the single at a thrift store a couple of years ago. In addition to the album version, it also contains the English "vocal interlude" version, as well as one called "percussapella". This one is really cool, as it is just vocals and percussion. If I remember correctly, I think you can even hear Richard laugh in the background.

I too would like to hear these, now that I'm "stuck on Véronique"!

mr J. said:
I definitely do not agree with this premise at all.If karen had lived into the late 1980's, she never would have had success with a typical "80's" album.And,if MADE IN AMERICA is any indication,it would have been a lackluster "80's" album. MADE IN AMERICA is filled with prototype "80's"-style arrangements and 1980's-era synthesysers(which didn't age well over the years!).I sincerely doubt that,circa 1983,Karen and Richard would have made a replica follow-up to MADE IN AMERICA.Thankfully,VOICE OF THE HEART turned out to be an about-face to MIA-and one of Karen's best albums.VOICE OF THE HEART pretty much follows the template of HORIZON.

Sadly, we'll never know, and this is all conjecture -- but interesting to think about. My feeling is that had Karen lived, an album like Voice Of The Heart would not have been made. Remember, that one was pieced together from a bunch of leftovers from other sessions, and wasn't really an indication of where Richard and Karen's heads were at the time, so the only real guide we have to go on is the prior album, Made In America. Would they have continued in the same vein? Who knows. But I do know that they were desperate to break out of their "goody four shoes" mold, and would have likely experimented with a lot of different styles and genres in search of that next big hit. But it was the '80s, so it would be hard to ignore the trends of the day. Richard produced the three albums he did (four, counting Time) with the idea of producing hits, and we can hear what they sound like.

mr J. said:
I think if Karen were still alive in 1989,she would have been doing albums like Barry Manilow's PARADISE CAFE,Linda Ronstadt's WHAT'S NEW and Natalie Cole's UNFORGETTABLE.

All very possible, but I tend to think that they would have been more innovators than followers. Still, an album of standards would have likely been great, given the few samples we got over the years.

Harry
NP: Véronique - yet again!
 
I feel that these songs are transfixed from their original intent and although they are pleasant to listen to, their soul is gone. They are just catchy tunes, kinda like muzak conversion, just not as strick in the watering down the punch.

Craig
 
CraigGA said:
I feel that these songs are transfixed from their original intent and although they are pleasant to listen to, their soul is gone. They are just catchy tunes, kinda like muzak conversion, just not as strick in the watering down the punch.

Craig

Which songs? Late Carpenters? Veronique? Akiko? Scott Grimes?

Harry
...confused, online...
 
Hi Murray and everybody else-
I heard it on tape, actually, of which is now lost. Long story- not worth retelling. But I think it came from an A&M US promo.
Video for which song? Not surprised she was a model- she has "the look"
(My wife disliked her cover for a reason :) !) Unfortunately, here in Denver, the used record stores seem to stink, so my chance of finding these songs are slim. How is her Borderline album? (Richard can do magic with just about anyone- artists can't hide behind average producers and arrangers...)
Anyway- great thread.
I always hoped Carps would do a standards album after MMM in 1980. "Someone to Watch Over Me" just killed me back then...
My bet is try would have tried many things- standards, vocal jazz, even a couple of high profile duets. Oh, well.
Best to all!
Mark
 
Harry: Veronique. Scott Grimes has some similar touches, but I really like the arrangement for You Got A Friend, if memory serves.

I liked Akiko, but did not feel that Richard's dialect matched Akiko and sometimes stuck and it was extremely overdubbed making a mechanical sounds against Akiko natural one. She is kinda like Harry Conick Jr. singning Sinatra. It is just kreepy that most everything tried to copy Karen's style while being orchestrated by the brother.

I have always felt that Karen is the best Richard can pair with, or that the public will accept, for that matter. Richard is talented, and I have always felt that he still has much to contribute to music, but not in the same direction that he and Karen traveled.

Craig
 
CraigGA said:
Richard is talented, and I have always felt that he still has much to contribute to music, but not in the same direction that he and Karen traveled.

That's been my argument for years. RC needs to do more new work, and yet whatever he does should never be a KC clone. KC was his niche for all those years--he just needs to find a new avenue, even in a "musical director" role for a singer, film or theater production, TV series, etc. In a way, he'd need to restart from the beginning to shatter that "Carpenters" role. It's not an easy task, but a few other artists have done it successfully.

And I don't mean something like Rod Stewart's recent "Standards" album either...his is just a 'desperate grasping at straws' attempt to sell more records to a public that's moved onto something else. Especially during the past decade, the "standards album" has been the ultimate artist cop-out, and most of these fail drastically (in an artistic sense). It's like a last-ditch effort to lift a sagging career. "My own music isn't working? OK, let's do a standards album!" I did like Natalie Cole's first two "standards" albums, but her new one on Verve has to be the most watered-down, lifeless collection of standards I've heard in awhile. She's already ridden it for what it's worth. Time to move on, IMHO...

-= N =-
 
especially during the last decade,the "standards"album has become the ultimate artist cop-out,and most of these fail drastically.

Actually,most of these "standards" albums are recorded by artists who should be singing standards to begin with.A good case in point would be Barry Manilow.His two mid-80's jazz albums PARADISE CAFE and SWING STREET are the best albums of his career.And,this is good jazz here.I NEVER liked Barry Manilow until I heard those two albums.I have absolutely no interest in his 70's pop albums.Linda Ronstadt's 3 Nelson Riddle albums are her best work and biggest sellers.Artistically,They're as good as any of Frank Sinatra's albums with Nelson Riddle from the 1950's.As far as Natalie Cole,it took her a long time to realize her true identity as a jazz singer.she wasted many years recording alot of forgettable R&B/soul,always searching for that elusive "hit single".
 
As promised, I gave the Scott Grimes CD a spin yesterday on the trips to work and back. Though it sounds a bit better to me in the context of hearing similar Laythan Armor work on the Véronique disc, I still can't get past Scott's whiney-sounding vocals. He might be able to carry a tune, but the quality of it is just not appealing to me. His shrill voice even overshadows Richard's in much of the backing vocal work.

I still dislike the headache-inducing opening track, "You're The Voice", despite the fact that it was co-produced by both Richard Carpenter and Herb Alpert. It sounds like they were just throwing everything into the mix almost like a latter day Phil Spector song.

I do like the arrangement on "Show Me The Way To Your Heart", but then again, I liked it on the almost-identical sounding arrangement on Richard's own "Time", found on both Time and PACC.

Richard's treatment of his own "What Am I Gonna Say?" brings back memories of a few other later-Carpenters songs. Again, it would be a GREAT record with someone else in the lead. Richard should do this one himself.

Bottom line - I'd rather hear this album with Véronique Béliveau singing the lead! For me, definately the low point of Richard's producing career.

Harry
...with an honest re-appraisal, online...
 
Hi Harry,
Well, I listened to Veronique 3 times yesterday, interspersed with Scott Grimes and Akiko. It does hold up better than I remembered.
Interestingly, it makes me wonder what RC will do with someone like Petula Clark. BTW- who else guests on this Christmas album due next year?
Of all the vocalists Richard has worked with, I think Dionne Warwick comes across best, and I don't even particularly usually like her voice.
I would love to hear what he could do with Olivia Newton John or Swing Out Sister- even Sting.
Anyway- back to the subject at hand- I guess the end result is my mood determines what I think of the individual projects. Sometimes, Akiko will hit the spot, sometimes Veronique, and sometimes Scott Grimes. Sometimes RC solo will do... but NO ONE cuts it like Karen, duo or solo.
Mark
 
I agree with you, mr.j, on PARADISE CAFE and SWING STREET! Barry Manilow later released three more albums with standards: SHOWSTOPPERS, SINGING WITH THE BIG BANDS, MANILOW SINGS SINATRA. BIG BANDS and SINGS SINATRA were produced by Phil Ramone, by the way. All those albums are worth listening to!

I own Linda Ronstadt's three standards albums, and they are indeed great. But I also like her album CRY LIKE A RAINSTORM very much, which was produced by Peter Asher and featured the Grammy winning song DON'T KNOW MUCH. This is a duet, but at the moment I can't remember with whom.
 
mstaft said:
Hi Harry,
Well, I listened to Veronique 3 times yesterday, interspersed with Scott Grimes and Akiko. It does hold up better than I remembered.

As I mentioned, I had the same reaction with Grimes, though I still don't care for his singing voice. I paid more attention to what was surrounding him and found it was easier to grab onto -- for me.

Interestingly, it makes me wonder what RC will do with someone like Petula Clark. BTW- who else guests on this Christmas album due next year?

I've not heard any official info on who's on the new Christmas album, but I'm not all that excited about the Petula Clark inclusion. I am a pretty big fan of her early recordings (anyone remember "Don't Give Up"? - great record!), but I just haven't been able to gather much enthusiasm for her work with Richard. Sadly, I think she's maybe a bit past her prime...

Of all the vocalists Richard has worked with, I think Dionne Warwick comes across best, and I don't even particularly usually like her voice.

I enjoy "In Love Alone' from the Time album, but thought it faded out WAY too abruptly. Dionne was just beginning to get into it and the thing fades out on her. I've always loved her work with Burt Bacharach. Favorite obscure "hit" - "Who Is Gonna Love Me?"

I would love to hear what he could do with Olivia Newton John or Swing Out Sister- even Sting.

Amen. Oh the possibilities: Richard Carpenter producing Swing Out Sister singing Burt Bacharach! The best music never made!

Anyway- back to the subject at hand- I guess the end result is my mood determines what I think of the individual projects. Sometimes, Akiko will hit the spot, sometimes Veronique, and sometimes Scott Grimes. Sometimes RC solo will do... but NO ONE cuts it like Karen, duo or solo.

That's the way music should be -- there to suit your mood. And it's great to have a wide range to choose from. Now, if I could just find a way to get in the mood to hear that whiney, freckle-faced Grimes... :wink:

Harry
...up early on a Sunday morning, online...
 
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