The Lonely Bull Mono and Stereo Editions

Status
Not open for further replies.

martin

Well-Known Member
I am aware that Steve Sidoruk mentioned in a thread about a year ago that companies out of U.K. had started to sell "The Lonely Bull" in unauthorized versions. I noticed this item on iTunes in Scandinavia that originates from the U.K.:

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/lonely-bull-mono-stereo-editions/id823821366

Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass - The Lonely Bull Mono and Stereo Editions.

The company is called Jackpot records. The two interesting things about the collection are that they use the original Lonely Bull cover photo and in addition to all Lonely Bull tracks in mono and stereo they have added
four old "Dore Alpert" recordings as bonus tracks: Tell It To The Birds, Fallout Shelter, Gonna Get A Girl and Dreamland.

- greetings from the north -
Martin
 
Hi Martin,

Yeah, I've seen a number of these out-of-copyright type knock-offs on places like Amazon and eBay. Fortunately the real thing is out there - at least in stereo.

Harry
 
Well it is not really a "bootleg" either. Serious companies like Naxos are doing exactly the same with old jazz recordings that have gone over in the public domain. And the companies still have to pay mechanical royalties to the composers, unless they have been gone for more than 75 years.

- greetings from the north -
Martin
 
I really wonder how legit these recordings are. Not from a copyright standpoint, but...what sources were used? Compressed itunes downloads are a dicey proposition to begin with, but were there actual mono and stereo masters available to make these from? Is this the recent CD version with the mono being a fold-down? (The mono version has never seen an official digital release.) Or are these needle drops?

Copyright aside, I would not touch these until someone verified the sources of the masters used to create this version. The mono LP had distinct mix differences from the stereo, so this is not an album that could be recreated as mono by doing a fold-down.

Just wanted to put this out here as a "buyer beware" sort of thing...
 
Last edited:
Good point about the mono mix, Rudy. Made me hesitate. It is the mono that has me interested. But, Jackpot Records? Can't find anything about them on the web unless it is the outfit in Portland, but they do not list the CD as a product of theirs. Interesting that the timings of the tracks are often different between the mono and stereo. Desafinado in mono is given as 3:43 and in stereo as 3:51.

One of the eBay listings says it is 'remastered', but then they quote a rating from the All Music Guide that refers to the original recording and not the Jackpot release. Can't trust them.

Need more info about the company and release before I make the plunge. The CD is easy to get through Amazon.
 
I'm not about to order one, but if anyone else is willing to be the guinea pig... :D

I remember those Omega Records pirated CDs, and somewhere, the seller claiming he had permission to release those. So I wouldn't even bother asking the seller. The mono has to be a fold down of the current CD, or a needle drop.
 
The way remastering jobs are done today you're better off doing your own needle drops. That's what I do, and they usually sound better (not as LOUD! :cool:)



Capt. Bacardi
 
A couple years ago I bought a CD of novelty songs thru a Canadian dealer. :hockeywave: It was made in Italy and the disc inside was marked "Not to be sold in USA!" Definitely gray market and made from needle drops of highly variable quality. It was obvious that whoever mastered the disc didn't speak English as one of the songs, which had a spoken punch line as its coda, was chopped off two words short at the end! Couldn't believe it, but at least it was on a track I already had on vinyl. Remember, you may not get what you pay for, but you pay for what you get. :sigh: (And those Canadian parcel post rates...ouch. Folks who kvetch about U.S. postal rates don't know what a bargain they're really getting.)
:exactly:
 
No kidding about postal rates--they're all over the place, worldwide. Yet Royal Mail from the UK seems a bargain, as I've been able to bring CDs overseas, with UK shipping, for far less than I would buying the same titles via US sources even with free shipping! I picked up the four Dionne Warwick 4-album sets, and they were a steal from Amazon UK compared to what they wanted here in the US.

But yep, ya gets whatcha pays for. :agree:

The way remastering jobs are done today you're better off doing your own needle drops. That's what I do, and they usually sound better (not as LOUD! :cool:)

This is true. Either that or if it had an earlier CD release (before 1995, or even earlier), there's a better chance the remastering hasn't been run through heavy noise reduction, then smashed. The first two TJB CDs remastered, Lonely Bull and South Of The Border, got a bit brick-walled, albeit not as bad as other CDs out there. And even if things aren't brick-walled, they get a heavy EQ boost. The last couple of recent Rhino box sets I've gotten were bright enough to zap mosquitos at 500 yards. :sigh:

I'll tell ya though from experience, it's nice to have a good digital playback system that brings out the best of discs and music files, but it still is worth it to invest in a good vinyl rig. I still play my TJB direct from vinyl, and don't even bother with CDs unless I make a playlist and let them spin while I'm working or doing other activities. There's just something way more satisfying about putting a nice Monarch pressing of the South Of The Border album on, cranked a bit past the sanity threshold :D , that gives one a good feeling. A good rig makes those old vinyl treasures sound fantastic, and the newer 180g releases can often be stunning in how good they sound. The Elvis 24 Karat Hits (3-disc, 45 RPM) set on vinyl is amazing--it's not "audiophile", and I'm not a big Elvis fan, but hearing the vinyl is like listening to your own copy of the master tapes right in your listening room. Every little thing that went on in the studio...you hear it. Even the SACD version of this, while sounding quite good, still loses a little something in the translation.

These iz good times. :agree:
 
hi guys, that cd of herb alpert & the tijuana brass the lonely bull. they have it on itunes, I was just on there, click on the song album cover. and I checked out the song lists, like Mexico, Acapluo 1922. and crawfish, even though it is digital sound. unless since I am over the hill at 58 and my hearing is going lol. but to me the mono and stereo versions are the same, and the mono versions are tje same as the stereo versions. I know they play a small sample of the songs. like on Mexico the stereo version the trumpet part is different on the offical release.again to me they sounded the same. guys please check it out and post your repies.
thanks
bob
 
Berlin, Germany has one of the most decent record shops left in Europe; the Dussmann Kulturhaus on Friedrichstraße. That's three floors with a large selection of CDs (and Vinyl and DVDs) from all over the world. The Herb Alpert section has always included most of the Signature series as well as other items like "The Very Best Of...", A&M Gold Series and so on. On a recent visit I could not resist picking up the Jackpot Records release of "The Lonely Bull" Stereo and Mono editions.
For me it is hard to decide what method was used mastering it, but the album sounds good, so I believe we are talking about "needle drops", digitally reworked from vinyl versions. What should be said, though, is that the album comes with a 15 page booklet with lots of interesting historical photos and biographical info which is almost entirely correct. The interesting thing about the photos is that they include "European" single covers and press references. So it appears as an attempt at presenting a very serious release that for me, as a fan, I would not have missed out on.

- Greetings from the north -
Martin
 
hi guys I was just on best buy on line and typed in the search herb alpert and the album and cd came up with the yellow background,they wanted $14.99
take care and happy holidays from bob.
 
This morning I happened upon the listings for these mono/stereo versions of THE LONELY BULL on Amazon and gave the mono tracks a quick listen, and I can tell you that these are not mastered all that well. For sure, they originate from needle-drops, but then the question becomes, "How good is the needle?; How good is the copy of the album from which the tracks are being transferred?" And my answers are "Not that good."

These tracks all have errant "stereo" information. That is, the recorded sound came from a stereo stylus playing two tracks into a recording device, yielding two tracks. And because records are not perfect, there is always a little information in a mono left channel that's not identical to the right channel. This causes the sound to be less-distinct in its location. A pure mono track should have identical information left and right so that when an OOPS (out-of-phase-stereo) summing takes place, most of the sound is canceled. When you do that with THESE tracks, there's a lot of sound when it all should have canceled.

Now, you could go through the trouble of combining the mono tracks lefts and rights and creating a new mono track, duplicating it, and writing it back out to CD. But then why should you have to if you're paying for someone else's work to begin with?

So, bottom line is, as always with anything unofficial, buyer beware. If you don't happen to own a turntable and/or a decent mono copy of THE LONELY BULL, then one of these might satisfy you. I'm a little fussier than that.

Harry
 
So you're saying that the "mono versions" here are false, that they are not really needle drops from the original mono mixes but "mono versions"
of stereo mixes?

- greetings from the north -
Martin
 
Nope. Not stating that either way. I've not identified the mixes used as to whether they're folded down stereo or true mono. I'd HOPE they were the true mono mixes. It's even possible that the compilers used a mono album that itself was a set of fold-downs from the stereo. We have no way of knowing what the heck they used.

No, all I'm stating here is that the sample tracks on Amazon of the mono-stereo version of THE LONELY BULL, yellowish cover, Jackpot Records, are not presented in a true mono sound. Imagine that the record they used for mastering had some groove wear, or that their stylus was worn, or that their cartridge left-right balance was off. When collapsed to OOPS (out-of-phase-stereo), the cancellation one would expect with a mono track just isn't complete. There's lots of left-right transient information leftover.

Harry
 
That's bad. I may need to modify my availability page about these poor quality discs. I refuse to give money to buy a product like that but on the other hand, it would be a public service to really listen to these and report on it, ways and all.

I'd never get a promo copy. Hell, I've been giving free promotion to a&m and those associated with it for nineteen years now and have never seen a thing. And the expenses end up coming out of my own pocket because I get almost zero revenues from it.

Makes me wonder why I even bother with this forum anymore. Seems pointless to me at this point.
 
At which point does a point become pointless? (And could you point it out?) :D

(When my point becomes pointless, it's time to change the stylus...)
 
Couple of observations here, both coming from the experience of running a record label and remastering public domain recordings. First of all, Amazon clips aren't necessarily from the recording you're looking at. If a track - for argument's sake we'll say 'The Lonely Bull' - appears on more than one album, Amazon don't bother to make clips from each version. They will simply link to the same clip every time. So the clip is only representative of the first instance of the title that Amazon have received for sale. This is an important point, because more than once in the past I thought the clip sounded good, bought the track and found it to be ... well, let's just say 'of lower quality'. Secondly, the remastering of needledrops. I do a lot of these. The starting point is to find the best, cleanest vinyl. And if it's a mono recording, I will choose between the left- and right- reproduction, because often the wear on the grooves has been uneven due to being played with worn stylus or uneven tracking. In any event if I'm remastering mono I always make sure the final product is true mono - identical in every respect (most importantly phase) on both left and right. What I have no control over is whether the source vinyl has been made from a fold-down or a true mono mix. However, the point Harry is making is extremely relevant - many remasterings are crude as hell and leave phase errors, surface noise, clicks and groove distortion untouched.
 
I'd never get a promo copy. Hell, I've been giving free promotion to a&m and those associated with it for nineteen years now and have never seen a thing. And the expenses end up coming out of my own pocket because I get almost zero revenues from it.

Hardly anyone gives out free promo copies any more, Rudy, especially those remastering public domain vinyl. The margins are so small it simply isn't worth it.
 
As I own the CD, I will check it properly out and report back.:)

- greetings from the cold north -
Martin
 
I was all of ten years old when my father played some TJB on his old mahogany stereo/radio/bar/God-knows-what-else-it-did music console, but of course, it was the cover of WHIPPED CREAM that hooked me. :edthumbs:

As the years went by, I bought all the mono and stereo editions of everything through BEAT OF THE BRASS. I can say without hesitation that not only do all editions have separate and dedicated mono and stereo mixes, but as fans should know, the mixes were not usually done by the same guy. Since most of this era were recorded at Gold Star in L.A. (IIRC), I think Stan Ross and/or Larry Levine supervised the mono mixes, while Herbie himself oversaw the stereo versions. Also remember that on THE LONELY BULL, the title track itself, in stereo, is a clever example of a post-facto stereo mix when none could be made. Why? That debut single was apparently mixed to mono only, and no multis were available when time came to assemble the first album. One channel of the stereo mix IS the 45 version itself, and the other Herb adding complementary horn parts to make a stereo mix. The B-side was fashioned a tad differently, but same idea. The rest of the album was probably recorded 3-track at GS.

But, really, who needs a CD edition from a dubious source? These days, with Pro Tools (used well, that is), you can use a mint copy of the album (which by no stretch is hard to find--all the TJB mono and stereo are quite common to find used to this day), record it to hard disk, adjust and tweak, remove noise and other anomalies, and make a digital copy that should at the least sonically match the quality your system is capable of (I've heard burns of certain albums far superior to released versions, which is at once exhilarating and depressing).

:ed:
 
Have the digital vinyl turntables priced themselves to oblivion? I noticed on a Neil Young box set a couple of years ago that some songs were taken off acetates with pops, clicks, etc. I mean, this is the Warner corporation, certainly they could have sprung for one of those ELP brand turntables...unless they don't really do all as advertised. I've heard they cost about as much as a car now, so... Also, speaking of sources, there's a website (which will remain nameless) that has some of the SUMMERTIME tracks posted, and most of them don't have any surface noise on them. Could it be that somebody has proper old equipment and downloaded those tracks off the old reel tapes?
 
There are many methods to do-it-yourself transfer of audio from LPs to digital and you don't need to spend a fortune on it. I'll detail my own path:

- Start out with reasonably clean vinyl. Tijuana Brass albums are plentiful used, but finding one or two that can serve as "masters" for your project can be frustrating. SUMMERTIME has a disadvantage in that it wasn't a huge seller, so it's not as plentiful as say WHIPPED CREAM which is everywhere. But by the same token, most of those SUMMERTIME albums weren't played to death. In my case, I simply used my old playing copy which wasn't worn to death and still in good shape. Worn albums where bad styli have ripped trough the grooves are totally unsuitable for the job. If you can find honest sellers on eBay, look for copies that are VG+ or better.

- Next of course you need a turntable. Here's where you can spend a fortune, but you don't have to. While they don't make really great consumer-grade turntables anymore, here again, you can find some pretty darned good ones in the used market. My current main turntable is a Technics SLQ-30.
technics_sl-q30_turntable.jpg

It was about a $200 table when it was new back in the '80s, and the old one I had finally crapped out after years of service. I found another on eBay for $30. It's not the fanciest of turntables, but it had rudimentary tracking and anti-skate adjustments and accepts P-mount cartridges. I'm currently using an Ortofon 320 Fine Line Stylus that sounds really good. These were once very reasonably priced which is when I picked it up. It's now about $250.
Ortofon320md.jpg


- Next you need a amplifier with a pre-amp circuit for phono cartridges - or an external pre-amp to connect to your modern-day amplifier (the system makers have pretty much ignored a "Phono" stage for years now, concentrating on 5.1 or 7.2 settings for movies). I use an ARTcessories DJ pre II preamp. They can be had for about $50 anywhere.
upload_2015-3-3_10-56-23.jpeg

- Then you'll need some way of getting the LP's sound to your computer. Some feed their sound directly into their sound card - and there are variances in sound cards. I personally use a Tascam CD-Recorder to copy the raw audio coming from the LP, and then copy that raw audio by ripping it as WAV files into my computer.

- Next comes the software: I use ClickRepair and Audacity. ClickRepair is a not-too-expensive paid program that does miracles with clicks and pops inherent in LP audio. One or two gentle passes through this (you don't want to remove any music info) and 99% of the clicks and pops are gone, but there are still a few remaining that have to be handled manually. That's where Audacity comes in. Audacity is a free program for manipulating sound files and with practice, you can hone in on those remaining noises and eliminate them.

Obviously, the cleaner the vinyl, the less you have to use these tools. Once you've cleaned up the audio and separated each track out to its own file, cleaning up the intros and outros, you can then write the files out to CD-R.

This is how I did my SUMMERTIME. Of course I started with two tracks that didn't need any clean-up - "Summertime" and "Jerusalem" were both already available on some CD compilations ("Jerusalem" on GH2 and SOLID BRASS, and "Summertime" on SOLID BRASS). That left only eight tracks to be cleaned up. Challenges were the quiet tracks of "Catch A Falling Star" and "If You Could Read My Mind".

I'll stack my SUMMERTIME against any that are out there, and am content with it even if Herb never gets it out again.

Harry
 
Hardly anyone gives out free promo copies any more, Rudy, especially those remastering public domain vinyl. The margins are so small it simply isn't worth it.
Most of the audiophile press get advanced copies of vinyl and gold CD releases (except for a couple of well-known labels that are notorious for not doing so). Even back in the 90s and early 2000s, I was getting more review CDs from other labels than I could ever write about (and a few were so bad that I never could write about them). But for mass market? I think the only promos going out now would be Top 40 fare, which of course I don't listen to. The reissues I'm interested in are, like you say, such low volume that it doesn't pay to send any out.

As for needle drops, I quit doing them for the most part. It makes no sense to me anymore for everyday listening, when I can hear it played back in true 100% analog on the turntable (especially now that I have one that is so highly resolving). Hearing something like the Elvis 24 Karat Hits in pure analog is an experience no digital system can come remotely close to...even DSD.

The only time I can use a needle drop is if I need to get it onto my music server (for portable or car use), for which there is no digital equivalent as of yet. In that case, I save it in the highest resolution I can (either 24-bit/192kHz or 24/96...I'd do DSD if I could), and can then convert it into any format possible from there.

I haven't had an A/D converter in a few years, though, so I have not done any recently.
 
Far out. The last time I did needle drops, it was from my copies of very good vinyl. Then, from my old turntable to the back of my computer. Then, I filtered them through the Goldwave program. Suits me pretty good, but I have to hit up an old Goodwill or something for a better turntable. Thanks for the reply.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom