The Promo Release Debate

[thetijuanataxi]

My take is this: I think that many fans, even some who frequent our site here would have grabbed those CDs if they had the opportunity. While Mike has a valid point about this kind of practice potentially hurting honest sales of the CDs, I also agree with Neil. This site has been the single biggest and most visible avenue of promotion for Shout Factory and the whole TJB project. We're even stirring up interest in Herb's solo releases which may be a year or two away at this point. I think that Shout Factory should have furnished Neil with 2 promo copies of each CD so that Neil might review and download high quality samples for all of us confirming the quality and additional written material on the discs. And if Neil kept one of the copies for himself? He deserves it. He's done more free advertising and interest stirring and question answering through provision of A&M Corner than a thousand record shops put together. I think Capt. Bacardi would also deserve a promotional copy of each CD from SF for bringing all of the details to us from a very accurate source. I just think that credit should be given where it's due and if anyone winds up with free promotional copies of the discs, the ones who do the most to drive sales should be rewarded and acknowledged first. After all, as much of a Herb Alpert/ TJB fan as I am, i might still not know about all of the upcoming releases if it weren't for this site. I wouldn't come down to hard on Walter for grabbing the discs though. Obviously, someone would have bought them if he didn't. The issue is that they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

David,
waiting patiently for Feb 8th

 

[walterphil]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

yes i would have posted anyway.
but my (early) indepth review wetted their appetite
so they're chompin at the bit waitin for the release date!

ok it's a deal then
i'll buy them (and keep them shrink wrapped) if

A. it will shut you the @%#& up and
B. you admit you were a teensy weensy little bit jealous

xxx
walt

 

[seashorepiano]

ok it's a deal then
i'll buy them (and keep them shrink wrapped) if

A. it will shut you the ##### up and
B. you admit you were a teensy weensy little bit jealous

A: I have a right to my opinions on this subject in this forum. You do not have the right to induce me to "shut the ##### up."

B: Jealous? Hardly. I can wait the few extra days until February 8th, quite frankly, to get my copies in the mail. In all honesty, I was a little disappointed that someone had an edge over the rest of us, then was willing to spoil it with giving us details. That's why I'm glad one of the moderators split part of this thread into a different discussion with the warning that spoilers were contained therein. The idea that my replies have been motivated by jealousy is preposterous and unfounded.

 

[walterphil]

jeeez

it was just a joke
i was just kiddin

i thought we were makin up

oh well

 

[Mike]

Ok, I’ll help put this whole issue to rest. Walterphil, send me the CDs and I’ll take care of everything.

 

[walterphil]

i'd do it mike, but it would probably get me in trouble. with somebody. somehow

 

[Mike]

Reminds me of when I was a teenager... What ever I did, somehow it was always wrong.

Well, Walterphil, I’m pleased to see you’ve got a great sense of humor!

 

[walterphil]

thanks mike. you're a prince

you know whats really funny mike?
i've maxed out 2 credit cards in the last year on amazon.com on cds. i don't even download from the internet cause i think it's cheatin somehow. i believe in respectin the lp/cd. i need liner notes & graphics.

my whole life is music. i have every herb, sergio and carpenters lp on vinyl, with at least a dozen singles w/pic sleeve of each artist. i have about 7,000 vinyl discs and at least 500 cds. i bought each brasil 66/77 cd, japanese issue, at full price. (thirty bucks a pop). obviously money means nothing to me when it comes to music.it's the music that matters.

i'm as big a fan as anyone on this list. i danced to "zorba the greek" with my parents and their friends in our sixties living room on our hi fi like the biggest dork in the world. i did a dayglow mural in my bedroom of brasil '66 when i was 14. i remember putting shoe polish on the black part of my "ye me le" album cover so it would look brand new.

now what was i to do with the 3 herb cds, um, pass em by? leave em in the racks?

walt

 

[Mike]

I know what I would have done, Walter, and leave them in the rack is not on my list. Unfortunately, because you did buy them, we have to arrest you and send you to CD prison. In the old days, cons pressed license plates, nowadays they press CDs. Yeah, a few years of pressing CDs ought to teach you a lesson you won't soon forget!

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Walt - There seems to be some kind of identity crisis thing going on here. seashorepiano thought you were talking to him when you were actually talking to me.

So anyway:

A. I'll probably never shut the #### up about promo sales, illegal downloads, shoplifting, or other theft of music because it's part of my livelihood, and:

B. OK, I will admit to being a little bit jealous.

If I had found those in a store however, I would have NOT put anything on a public forum about it until AFTER the official release date. If so amazed at the fact there's not a ton of discussion about the new disks, it's because nobody else has anything to discuss yet. You basically threw a wet blanket on the whole thing.

Would I have bought these disks if I'd seen them in a store? Ehhhhhh, probably. But in addition to keeping quiet about it, I think I'd have also tried to find out how they got there and put a stop to it happening in the future in that store. Street date violations are something everyone in the industry SHOULD be taking seriously, especially when dealing with a relatively small company like Shout Factory.

 

[Mr Bill]

Holy Crap! This has gotten way out of hand!!! They're promos. Promos are a fact of life. They serve a purpose. No one enforces the "illegal sale" of them (for whatever reason). So let's put this behind us and talk about the music! *

--Mr Bill
* acknowledging the fact that most of us will have to wait till Feb 8 to talk about it...

 

[Mike]

Hey Bill, how ya doing? is holy Crap anything like thread crap?

 

[Mr Bill]

I'm fine. I'm about half way between Japan and California (in other words "Hawaii"). Holy Crap is something I picked up from watching too much Raymond. I suppose when I get old I'll be a lot like Frank...

--Mr Bill

 

[Brasil_Nut]

I've avoided this subject long enough. Haven't said a word. Not one single word. I will now:

In reading every post here, I remember a conversation that my good friend, Paul Jeromack, had with Sergio about this very thing. As Paul related the story to me, Sergio was **FURIOUS** in thinking that people will and can cheat an artist and label. Point being, like Mike, I would probably have kept quiet and waited to share the experience with everyone else. By "everyone else" I mean all of us who wish to wait until the CDs are officially released, with royalties going where they should...not in the pocket of some hole-in-the-wall record store owner.

And, like Bill says, they are promos. Like Neil says, promos happen. Illegal sales of such items have been going on for years. In the end, I'm sure it's something the label looks on as falling into the category of a loss in the name of product promotion. Ugly state of affairs, but true.

Yeah, artists and labels are cheated right and left. However, in reading all that's been stated here, it amazes me that strides were not taken to determine where the promos came from -- or for that matter -- to stop them. Every little bit helps. For goodness sakes...it's less than two weeks away...the money will (and should) go into Herb's pocket, the label's pocket and retailer's pocket.

Doesn't matter how much $$$ an artist or company has. Artists release music as a labor of love; a gift if you will. This is the way I feel about Herb and his decision to release this wonderful material again. To Herb, I say thank you.

Like Mike and Seashore, it's a personal decision and something taken to heart. After all, Music (like anything else) is a business. The illegal and untoward methods of stealing have been going on for years. That doesn't mean we have to like it. Furthermore, everyone is entitled to an opinion...heck...that's what A&M Corner is all about!!

Here! Here!! Mike and Seashore!!!

Jon

 

[Mike]

Well, I bet Walter never shares any info with the forum anymore... that's what has been accomplished today. Some have said he should have done the deed and kept his mouth shut... I say, leave him alone and if you desire to call the feds, do so, but keep your mouth shut while you do it.

Lets make this as ugly as we can, and ruin all the joy we've been sharing till today.

Yeah, here, here... to what?

 

[Mike]

What a shame... I spent my 200th post venting frustration. Well, thats life!
Antway, A&M Corrner is still the best... Viva La A&M!

 

[Brasil_Nut]

Anyway, A&M Corrnr is still the best... Viva La A&M!

And ...Viva La Mike and his great sense of humor throughout this debacle!! Thanks for giving us a laugh or two, Mike...something to cool our heals and laugh about. After all, as they say, laughter is the best medicine!!

Jon

 

[Mike]

And Viva to you, Le Brasil Nut... you're truly a gold nuget in the forum. Humor is always the best medicine.

 

[spanky1]

I posted this on the wrong thread earlier.

After watching this topic(and related ones), I finally have decided to add my .02 worth. I think that we have to realize that (at least in this case), the seller had no clue about the release date of Tijuana Brass cd's. We at this board have the 2/8 date circled on our calendars, however, we are in the minority. This store may knowingly do this all the time, but I'd be willing to bet that he didn't know the upcoming street date of "The Lonely Bull"

As far as buying promos, that's a tough one. As a longtime cd collector, I'm a little more sensitive(and am quite anal) when it comes to copying cd's. At work, I have friends that have entire cd collections that are copies of friends cds. They've also asked me for some of my cd's to copy....which brings on a sermon from me. I try to explain that if everyone had cd collections made like theirs, the system couldn't operate...in particular old reissues that aren't going to generate huge sales numbers.

I think that all of us here understand the importance of buying cd's. If this first batch of cd's from Shout Factory don't sell very well, it hurts us down the road on possible future releases. For those of us that listen to "somewhat obscure" types of music such as The Baja Marimba Band, The Tijuana Brass, Sergio Mendes, etc, we rarely see of favorites released, and for every copied cd that I allow someone to make, that's a possible sale that is lost. Along those lines, don't we technically see the same economic effect when we buy a cd, copy it, then sell the original?

Promos are such a small percentage of the total production that I don't think it matters a lot. I think cd copying has a much more detrimental effect on cd sales. I'm not passing judgement on anyone, just giving my opinion.

Michael Harris

 

[Rudy]

I posted this on the wrong thread earlier.

After watching this topic(and related ones), I finally have decided to add my .02 worth. I think that we have to realize that (at least in this case), the seller had no clue about the release date of Tijuana Brass cd's.

It's rare that a production release is shipped so early, but we can't rule it out either. Still, $8.99 is likely below what a small shop's cost would be.

 

[Rudy]

Holy Crap! This has gotten way out of hand!!! They're promos. Promos are a fact of life. They serve a purpose. No one enforces the "illegal sale" of them (for whatever reason).

Since I know someone who was actually contacted by an artist's attorney for selling a promo CD on eBay, I try to remain as low-key about my promos as I can (unless they are vinyl, or rare non-album CD singles).

 

[Mr Bill]

Since I know someone who was actually contacted by an artist's attorney for selling a promo CD...

Wow! the artists's attorney. That's the first I've heard of that. The record companies certainly don't give a rats a$$. In L.A. you can go to used record shops right across the street form any of the labels and there will be 20 promo copies of the latest releases. Do the label legal departments do anything? Nah! My hats off to the artist you describe AND thier lawyer! It's a rare thing...

--Mr Bill

 

[Murray]

Hmm. Stores should NOT be selling promos. They are probably clearly stamped, "PROMOTIONAL USE ONLY -- NOT FOR SALE," or else they are drilled or cut to mark them.

Well, I learn something new everyday from reading this forum! I had no idea that a CD with a "drilled" or "cut" jewel case was a promo copy. I've bought a few of these over the years from used record stores, and I always thought that the hole or cut meant that they were surplus or deleted product, like the LPs that I used to buy in the bargain bin at Woolworths for $1.00 each long ago (they were always punched or cut so that they couldn't be returned for full price). None of the CDs that I bought were stamped "Promotional use only", and they were older titles, so I had no reason to think otherwise.

Murray
...who will be more careful what he buys in future...

 

[jfiedler17]

Well, I learn something new everyday from reading this forum! I had no idea that a CD with a "drilled" or "cut" jewel case was a promo copy. I've bought a few of these over the years from used record stores, and I always thought that the hole or cut meant that they were surplus or deleted product, like the LPs that I used to buy in the bargain bin at Woolworths for $1.00 each long ago (they were always punched or cut so that they couldn't be returned for full price).

Wait, cut jewel cases mean "promos"? I'd been under the assumption that cut jewel cases just meant cutouts, as in meant-for-the-discount-bin.
I do know with a certainty that any CD releases that have punchholes in the back cover slip [as is typical of Sony/Columbia and Interscope promos] and any CD with the UPC symbol scratched out or with a marker line through it [as is typical of Virgin's promos] - are promos. And Warner/Atlantic has the most obvious promo releases, since they have a gold promo stamp right on the CD booklet cover.
But I'd bought a few Warner/Atlantic CDs in the last year that had a small slice of the jewel-case binding removed [a la the cassettes in every record-store discount bin years ago], but I'd thought that just signified "cut-out bin" rather than "promo". Anyone else know anything more about this?

Jeff F.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I think that if I'd run across the same thing that Walt did, I'd have reacted much the same. Promos are very rare, indeed; and to have a promo of a new, never-before-released album is a dream -come-true for any fan.

I have promo copies of YSTB and CI...they're the only ones I have...they were going to be thrown out of the campus radio station where I worked; and I was a poor college student. I had first pick, so...they're mine now. I was the only one who played them on the air, anyway...

Is it piracy to sell promos? How many collectors would give an exorbitant amount for one? How do promos get into the hands of most collectors, anyway? I went into a men's store that was going out of business and bought some cologne, once...it was a tester, so they couldn't charge me, I just gave them a couple of bucks...was that wrong?

The purpose of a promo is to promote awareness of the artist's music, and this situation has certainly done that...

Walt, you're a lucky dog, IMO...

Dan