The semi-official VOLUME 2 thread
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Matt Clark Sanford, MI
I trust in Shout Factory to one day release the album. A disgruntled Lions fan in Michigan. 
Dore Adler
Member
I'd like to second anyone who said that Vol. 2 is a great album and should not be shuffled back in the pile the way that it is! I just played my mint mono version last night and Marching Through Madrid put a big smile on my face, as always.
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
I don't notice any big differences except perhaps a little more studio echo on some of the tracks. The only obvious difference that exists in relation to songs on VOLUME 2 is the single version of "The Great Manolete". There is guitar on the bridge instead of bass guitar and on the cadenza there is a 2nd trumpet playing an octave lower.
David,
who will be happy to see VOLUME 2 get released along with WARM and SUMMERTIME.......
David,
who will be happy to see VOLUME 2 get released along with WARM and SUMMERTIME.......
HereWeGoAgain
New Member
Maybe they are looking to recreate the 'vol 2 sales effect' from the 60's - i.e. drop it and reissue it to piggie back the sales of the other big titles?
I know this burro has been beaten to death already, but count me in as one who would prefer another title be sacrificed instead of this one. The visual images conjured by the music on this album (with a little help from the LP cover) I will never forget. I agree that it is a stronger and more cohesive album than the first, which sounded less confident and uncertain of its direction, although I suppose it would be even more ludicrous to omit that one.
Viva Vol 2! Olay![/list]
I know this burro has been beaten to death already, but count me in as one who would prefer another title be sacrificed instead of this one. The visual images conjured by the music on this album (with a little help from the LP cover) I will never forget. I agree that it is a stronger and more cohesive album than the first, which sounded less confident and uncertain of its direction, although I suppose it would be even more ludicrous to omit that one.
Viva Vol 2! Olay![/list]
Larry
Member
I have the 1988 CD of Vol. 2, which I found in a cut out bin of Camelot Records. I was looking for WCAOD, WNML and SOTB after I had found out they were no longer in print. Not too happy of a camper was I. I felt fortunate to have found one of something that was close to what I was looking for. When I played the CD of Vol. 2 the first time, I thought it sounded like quite a bit of the bottom end was missing. I look forward to the reissue correcting the deficiency. I can't imagine Herb not releasing it again.
N.P. Vol. 2
N.P. Vol. 2
Dore Adler
Member
bruckner1 said:
Stereo, at the time of Vol. 2's release was still in it's infancy, in the sense that engineers still liked to place the drums to the far left and trumpets to the right, or vice versa. The mono comes right at you from the 'phantom center' and packs a wollop!
The singles are more compressed and so this goes for them in spades!! Not to mention that several have unique mixes that differ from even the mono lp's!
Oh, and my copy has low-end galore!
Dore Adler
Member
I'm bumping this thread up because:
Everytime someone starts a new thread about this *fantastic* album it gets shut down. So here is the original thread where all of us fans of this album can make it clear to Shout Factory that it should not be forgotten. I doubt seriously that they would be "annoyed" by a clamor for their product.
Not only should this album be re-released, but it should get the deluxe treatment, with great b-sides like Mexican Drummer Man and alt mono mixes.
Please please, Shout Factory, make sure that this wonderful album is given it's rightful place in the TJB catalog!!
Everytime someone starts a new thread about this *fantastic* album it gets shut down. So here is the original thread where all of us fans of this album can make it clear to Shout Factory that it should not be forgotten. I doubt seriously that they would be "annoyed" by a clamor for their product.
Not only should this album be re-released, but it should get the deluxe treatment, with great b-sides like Mexican Drummer Man and alt mono mixes.
Please please, Shout Factory, make sure that this wonderful album is given it's rightful place in the TJB catalog!!
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
Believe me, I want to see VOLUME 2 re-issued just as much as you do, but it's not Shout! Factory's decision. Herb Alpert has complete and final say over what gets reissued and so far, he has chosen not to release it. However, as has been stated many times before, Randy Alpert told Capt. Bacardi that ALL of the TJB albums would be re-issued. So be patient amigo and you most likely will get your wish. Why it wasn't released chronologically, I can't say. Only Mr. Alpert knows for sure. But all the cooperation from SF won't mean a hill of beans if Herb says no or not yet. So hang tight, these reissues are supposed to go into June 2006, so I'd say the odds are pretty good you will see it eventually.
David,
looking forward to the next three......
David,
looking forward to the next three......
Let's not forget that VOLUME 2 was available on CD for at least a decade, from its original pressing through the late '90s, so it may have a track record of being an under-achiever sales-wise.
Still, I'd buy another one should it ever become available again.
Harry
...actually making a serious post today after more Hostess nonsense, online...
Still, I'd buy another one should it ever become available again.
Harry
...actually making a serious post today after more Hostess nonsense, online...
I was pondering how the "lesser" TJB albums might be marketed to maximize sales. Maybe they could start a new series -- The Herb Alpert UNDISCOVERED Series. It'd make a nice 6-volume set, with V2, Warm, Summertime, TBAC, YS-TSB and Coney Island.
Or maybe this is the time for two-fers, although V2 would probably have to stand alone since it's worlds away from the others in style.
Or maybe this is the time for two-fers, although V2 would probably have to stand alone since it's worlds away from the others in style.
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
Harry said:
I agree.
I like much of the content of Volume 2. I regard it as essential TJB history. It is a part of the progression; a piece of the history; of the 1960s TJB, especially the early TJB, sound and repertoire.
I, like others here, am a serious TJB fan. So, I would add Volume 2 to my TJB collection just because it is part of the music to collect and hear. Such is the behavior of a serious fan.
But, Volume 2 did not, to the best of my memory, produce any major hits or receive much radio airplay. Nor did it mark any new direction in the progression of the TJB sound and style. Nothing remarkable from a commercial or stylistic point of view. Many people may very well regard it as something akin to a follow up to the LONELY BULL album.
I repeat that I like much of Volume 2, especially songs like Winds of Barcelona - one of my favorite early TJB songs - but I don't think it had the commercial impact even back when it was originally released that just about all the other albums had.
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
An album doesn't have to produce any major commercial hits or break any new ground to be worth listening to. Let's not also forget that Herb thought enough about "A-Mer-i-ca" to put it on the "Greatest Hits" LP. And "Winds Of Barcelona" has always been a concert favorite.
David,
who thinks Vol. 2 is very underrated..........
David,
who thinks Vol. 2 is very underrated..........
venturaguy49
Member
This is one nice album, that has only one flaw: no marimba, but then again, for that very reason, marimbists can play along with it, and do it their own way(and of course, discover what we've known all along, that Julius Wechter's way with mallets was the best)...hey, maybe J.W.'s spirit could channel through whomever plays along with this fine album, and fine indeed it sure is! Since this way issued by A y M a decade or so back, I do have a copy, as mastered for digital by them, but a re-issue by Herb y Randy and crew would most likely be an improvement. What I have in my library is a version of this classic that's somewhat 'brighter', tonewise, so on "Spanish Harlem", one hears more sparkle and transients that aren't as apparent on vinyl. Also, that cool bass guitar that just rolls in to open "Mex Corn" has a bit of crackle, which suggests that the whole album was re-equalized to give it that somewhat peculiar audio quality...kinda an open-air sound , or maybe a murky basement one...like a nightspot in which the accoustics are deadened, but on cd, it's livelier. Note, if you will, one interesting feature: that the voices used on "More", are stylistically similar to the vocal aggregation used on the T.J.B.'s Christmas album. Also, there's a cool nod to jazz pianist/composer Thelonius Monk's "Blue Monk" in the Alpert composition "Swinger From Seville"; without copying Monk's famous tune, Herb found a way to present the essense in a new song. That rates a 
from yers truly. Now, if this •does• make it to cd via Shout, then (maybe) a reprint of the original back cover will be included. Notice, on your L.P.'s cover, that this, the Brass' second album features a a pic of their third production(S.O.T.B.)...fact is, that it's a complete re-do. Prob is that our scanner covers only portion of the 12x12 cover, so(maybe) Rudy, or The Captain has a large-bed scanner y the album...hey, that's make a cool icon.
Warm Wishes,
de hookahhead, who's thinks that "Marching Thru Madrid" would make one cool video...I've seen my share of classical works and such done tastefully with visuals that are artfull and that such would really add to the magestic regality of MTM nicely. Yeah, MTM is a •huge• fave of mine. So is the entire record from which it's featured.
from yers truly. Now, if this •does• make it to cd via Shout, then (maybe) a reprint of the original back cover will be included. Notice, on your L.P.'s cover, that this, the Brass' second album features a a pic of their third production(S.O.T.B.)...fact is, that it's a complete re-do. Prob is that our scanner covers only portion of the 12x12 cover, so(maybe) Rudy, or The Captain has a large-bed scanner y the album...hey, that's make a cool icon.Warm Wishes,
de hookahhead, who's thinks that "Marching Thru Madrid" would make one cool video...I've seen my share of classical works and such done tastefully with visuals that are artfull and that such would really add to the magestic regality of MTM nicely. Yeah, MTM is a •huge• fave of mine. So is the entire record from which it's featured.
venturaguy49 said:
Unless I'm mistaken, that's a marimba I hear in both "The Green Leaves Of Summer" and "Crea Mi Amor".
I can't argue there. The VOLUME 2 CD, as mastered by A&M back in the '80s is rather harsh to listen to. There's a preponderance of mid-highs and highs that just sound piercing, while the low end is practically non-existent.
Harry
NP: radio at work
venturaguy49
Member
is that it's a pleasing early attempt at formulating a group that withing a couple of years would become favorites the world over, and yet, on that second offering of Brass recordings are the essense of everything that came after it. True, with the release of "South OfThe Border", the T.J.B. would gel furtherly, but even so, it's those sundry tracks from Vol 2 that are definitive.
Gems such as "More", and the stately appeal of "Marching Through Madrid"; the soulfulness of "Spanish Harlem" and "Crea Mi Amor" or the live feel of "A-Me-Ri-Ca". Those titles are, admittetly, not congruent with later material, and yet, within the first two albums is the foundation from which everything else would spring, so the first two years of T.J.B. was an experimental cauldron of new ideas, and innovations that had yet to be realized, but even so, the freshness of those roots have a virtue all their own, if just for the fact that they are the precursors of what would be. In those fine tracks, one can hear their favorite Brass peformances in the making, and for that very reason, T.J.B. Vol 2, as with "Lonely Bull", rightfully deserve to be regarded as more than just trial efforts...more than just lesser lights. It's items such as "Limbo Rock", "Mexican Corn"(with that bass opening that's so unique)...or "Stutting With Maria", which is so darned fun to listen to. or, arguably, the best version of "Never On Sunday" ever.
One can go though all of the titles, such as the plaintively lovely "El Lobo", or "Crawfish", which is truly the most interesting bossa nova arrangement and performance of all time. What I'd just •love• to have available, is a recording of the Brass during their '63 date at the Crescendo, and a chance to hear some of these early pieces performed live, and, per chance, some material that would be issued on later productions. Maybe an early version of "Our Day Will Come", or "Trolly Song", performed ala the Tijuana Brass as they were then. What a thrill it would be to have those performances, as with later live shows, available on cd(or anything for that matter
Yes, by later production standards, the first two Brass albums •were• a bit quaint, but nonetheless, they were also very enjoyable. They were, after all, the foundation of everything else, and what an enjoyable foundation indeed.
That was a band that was joyous, imaginative, and innovative from the very start, so count me as one that digs early T.J.B....a whole lot, that is.
With that, I'll leave this open to others, and bid y'all a most pleasant one.
Warm Wishes,
the hookahhead
Gems such as "More", and the stately appeal of "Marching Through Madrid"; the soulfulness of "Spanish Harlem" and "Crea Mi Amor" or the live feel of "A-Me-Ri-Ca". Those titles are, admittetly, not congruent with later material, and yet, within the first two albums is the foundation from which everything else would spring, so the first two years of T.J.B. was an experimental cauldron of new ideas, and innovations that had yet to be realized, but even so, the freshness of those roots have a virtue all their own, if just for the fact that they are the precursors of what would be. In those fine tracks, one can hear their favorite Brass peformances in the making, and for that very reason, T.J.B. Vol 2, as with "Lonely Bull", rightfully deserve to be regarded as more than just trial efforts...more than just lesser lights. It's items such as "Limbo Rock", "Mexican Corn"(with that bass opening that's so unique)...or "Stutting With Maria", which is so darned fun to listen to. or, arguably, the best version of "Never On Sunday" ever.
One can go though all of the titles, such as the plaintively lovely "El Lobo", or "Crawfish", which is truly the most interesting bossa nova arrangement and performance of all time. What I'd just •love• to have available, is a recording of the Brass during their '63 date at the Crescendo, and a chance to hear some of these early pieces performed live, and, per chance, some material that would be issued on later productions. Maybe an early version of "Our Day Will Come", or "Trolly Song", performed ala the Tijuana Brass as they were then. What a thrill it would be to have those performances, as with later live shows, available on cd(or anything for that matter
Yes, by later production standards, the first two Brass albums •were• a bit quaint, but nonetheless, they were also very enjoyable. They were, after all, the foundation of everything else, and what an enjoyable foundation indeed.
That was a band that was joyous, imaginative, and innovative from the very start, so count me as one that digs early T.J.B....a whole lot, that is.
With that, I'll leave this open to others, and bid y'all a most pleasant one.
Warm Wishes,
the hookahhead
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
Everything starts somewhere...
With the Lonely Bull in 1962 - both song and album - we have the introduction of a new artist and a new sound and style in pop music. It appeared before the Beatles in 1964 - which, IMO, was a definitive year in the history of pop/rock music. IMO, 1964 marks a new direction in what you begin to hear in pop and rock music in general.
I think both the Lonely Bull and Volume 2 are characteristic of the pre-Beatles era, which was also characterized by other instrumental and orchestral pop, and the pre-Beatles rock era.
Both these albums seem to me to be Herb Alpert working to find his place as a recording artist and seeking to establish his sound and style. He is often quoted in interviews as wanting to create his own musical "signature." He spent a couple years experimenting with sound, style, and songs; released both the Lonely Bull and Volume 2 albums; and finally released South Of The Border, which I believe is the real beginning of the TJB sound and style for the remainder of the sixties decade.
I think these albums are very significant in the history of the artist Herb Alpert, and the evolution of the TJB sound and style. And I would agree that they are worthy albums in their own right, even if nothing further had come along thereafter. However, from hindsight, I can see how these albums fit into the foundation of all that was to come.
I have heard the TJB perform Lonely Bull, Never On Sunday, Let It Be Me, and Winds Of Barcelona in concert.
I do believe that these early albums - Lonely Bull and Volume 2- are of greatest interest to real TJB fans. Mass public popularity would come a little later with the release of Whipped Cream and Going Places.
With the Lonely Bull in 1962 - both song and album - we have the introduction of a new artist and a new sound and style in pop music. It appeared before the Beatles in 1964 - which, IMO, was a definitive year in the history of pop/rock music. IMO, 1964 marks a new direction in what you begin to hear in pop and rock music in general.
I think both the Lonely Bull and Volume 2 are characteristic of the pre-Beatles era, which was also characterized by other instrumental and orchestral pop, and the pre-Beatles rock era.
Both these albums seem to me to be Herb Alpert working to find his place as a recording artist and seeking to establish his sound and style. He is often quoted in interviews as wanting to create his own musical "signature." He spent a couple years experimenting with sound, style, and songs; released both the Lonely Bull and Volume 2 albums; and finally released South Of The Border, which I believe is the real beginning of the TJB sound and style for the remainder of the sixties decade.
I think these albums are very significant in the history of the artist Herb Alpert, and the evolution of the TJB sound and style. And I would agree that they are worthy albums in their own right, even if nothing further had come along thereafter. However, from hindsight, I can see how these albums fit into the foundation of all that was to come.
I have heard the TJB perform Lonely Bull, Never On Sunday, Let It Be Me, and Winds Of Barcelona in concert.
I do believe that these early albums - Lonely Bull and Volume 2- are of greatest interest to real TJB fans. Mass public popularity would come a little later with the release of Whipped Cream and Going Places.
Dore Adler
Member
Great posts, guys! Keep'em coming!
I will confess that I am not particularly a fan of either LB or Vol II, though I enjoy certain tracks, and both albums, to a limited extent. I think the main problem is that I had not heard either LP until after I'd thoroughly digested WNML, South of the Border, Going Places, and Whipped Cream (I bought the albums in that order.) Only then did I acquire and listen to the first two albums; in comparison, they seemed crude and, with regard to some tracks, corny. The production and audio quality disappointed me as well. Had I been exposed to the albums in chronological order I'm sure I would have enjoyed both LB and Vol. II a whole lot. One other hang-up regarding Vol. II is that, before hearing the album, I happened to catch Herb and the TJB on the Andy Williams TV show performing "America"-- I'm qwuite sure the show aired sometime during 1966. If they were lip-syncing, it must have been to a track recorded especially for the TV show, because the dazzling version of America I heard on the show was radically different than the LP version, which I acquired soon after; I remember being very disappointed when I heard America on Vol. II -- it didn't sound the same at all. None of this is to suggest that Vol. II isn't worthy of re-issue --I just felt I'd explain why, in part, it doesn't give me nearly the kick that the later albums do.
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
With all due respect to both Lonely Bull and Volume 2, something pretty significant happened/changed with South Of The Border...IMHO. It's almost like the whole TJB thing/sound/concept finally came into focus at that point and the whole thing was now ready to "take off," so to speak. I would go so far as to say that it's almost like a totally different sounding artist has emerged with South Of The Border...the sound now is ready for great commercial success.
Again, IMHO, South Of The Border is a big, big jump ahead in the development of the sound, the style, the music, the arrangements, the production, the playing, the "presentation," and all the other stuff that may be involved in something like this.
Again, IMHO, South Of The Border is a big, big jump ahead in the development of the sound, the style, the music, the arrangements, the production, the playing, the "presentation," and all the other stuff that may be involved in something like this.
Absolutely right. Everything from the production techniques to the arrangements changed with that album.
I think the key to the whole thing was the VOLUME 2 sales flop. Herb's reaction was to discard most of the Mexican influences and allow American jazz and rock'n'roll to drive the sound. If V2 hadn't flopped, who knows -- SOTB might have sounded completely different.
I think the key to the whole thing was the VOLUME 2 sales flop. Herb's reaction was to discard most of the Mexican influences and allow American jazz and rock'n'roll to drive the sound. If V2 hadn't flopped, who knows -- SOTB might have sounded completely different.
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
Yes, this is exactly right...I think it took the influence of American jazz and rock and roll to take the TJB to the top and break out into a national and international audience.
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
Still, VOLUME 2 is probably the only million-selling LP in history to be considered a "flop". Just "The Green Leaves Of Summer" alone is worth getting V2 for. I get goosebumps every time I hear it. Herb could do an incredible tone poem even then. There's no doubt in my mind that V2 was a great album in it's own right and yes there is marimba on a couple of tracks, but not as prominently as some of the later ones. I don't compare V2 to GOING PLACES, they're two totally different concepts. Do I like GP more, yes. Do I still listen to V2 quite frequently, yes. V2, although not everyone's favorite, is still a great album and IMHO has as much right to get the deluxe re-issue treatment as any of the others. I will buy it on the release date.
David,
counting the days to 8/16....
David,
counting the days to 8/16....
venturaguy49
Member
thusly, qualifying(in a way) as a new topic. both groups, while obviously different in most respects, had one common factor that identified them: harmony From the beginning, T.J.B. used harmony parts that had a distinctively 'Mex' quality, but that didn't always remain true, as the chart for "Lollipops & Roses" is basically a 'swing arrangement, with harmony that's right out of the Big Band Era(I'm a huge swing fan, and so I've listened to plenty of it.) "Lollopops" is clearly a 'little big band', with scarcely any Mex feel about it. On the other hand, the Beatles used, as harmony, a multiple lead, so that one can pick out individual vocalists. Theirs'(Beatles') strength lay in that uncanny knack for two particular members(John n Paul) to sing in such as way that it emulated(instrumentally) a tenor sax together with an alto(played in a lower register), so that both sang approx. a half octave apart, but not as true harmony. In fact, harmony is sometimes impossible for vocalists, the reason being that second, and even more so with third part harmony, one doesn't play as many notes as the lead part.
Means that one would have to sing partial lyrics to create a true harmonic blend. One the other hand, the art of 'doo wop', involves using the voice to simulate instruments, and in many cases, doo woppers create a convincing full harmony effect. With a group such as Beatles, only during their 'wordless vocals, had they achieved it. Otherwise, they presented multiple lead, which still, was pleasing. With instrumental aggregations, such boundaries are non-existant, and the Tijuana Brass is a shining example of proper harmony. Listen carefully to their recordings, and what one hears is not a formulized approach to harmony, but one that fluctuates consistently.
One moment it's solo, then 1st and 3rd, then unison of 1st, and so forth.
That's interesting to me. Made for intriquing records.
As for just when, and what album qualifies as T.J.B. proper, it's hard to say, and so I'll just observe, that the thing that made them(in my opinion) so cool, was that way of presenting melodies, and an early example of what can be considered 'true' T.J.B. is their recording of "More", and specifically, the middle part. Where the lyrics would read "...life will be in your keeping" recieve a cool jazzy treatment from Herb, and the final notes are delivered by Edomondson's trombone...THAT, to my sensibilities, is what the Tijuana Brass was all about: playing imaginative arrangements that just naturally piqued ones interest. That was a quality that just MADE the Brass special, and it's one that is present on every album that they issued. Everyone has their favorites, but in the end, it was Herb Alpert's way with a song, combined with superb fellow players that made for such a fascinating outfit.
Although the Brass would have to achieve more finesse that their first two offerings provided to gain mainstream acceptance, in their ways, those earliest of Brass albums has a virtue about them that I can't describe, but I sure know it when I hear it...and I like it mucho
Remember, that just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it is that art is to be appreciated for what one finds in it, and while some may be disappointed by what is percieved as lack, yet another will find completion.
Art's always how one takes it to be...no more, and yet no less.
and that's as good as it need be
Warm Wishes,
de hookahhead who'd just LUV to have heard more of those early gems, played typically in an alternative arrangement. The fun of a T.J.B. concert, was rather than playing 'greatest hits live', what one was treated to were frequently album tracks played in a completely different fashion from the original albums. very interesting indeed
Means that one would have to sing partial lyrics to create a true harmonic blend. One the other hand, the art of 'doo wop', involves using the voice to simulate instruments, and in many cases, doo woppers create a convincing full harmony effect. With a group such as Beatles, only during their 'wordless vocals, had they achieved it. Otherwise, they presented multiple lead, which still, was pleasing. With instrumental aggregations, such boundaries are non-existant, and the Tijuana Brass is a shining example of proper harmony. Listen carefully to their recordings, and what one hears is not a formulized approach to harmony, but one that fluctuates consistently.
One moment it's solo, then 1st and 3rd, then unison of 1st, and so forth.
That's interesting to me. Made for intriquing records.
As for just when, and what album qualifies as T.J.B. proper, it's hard to say, and so I'll just observe, that the thing that made them(in my opinion) so cool, was that way of presenting melodies, and an early example of what can be considered 'true' T.J.B. is their recording of "More", and specifically, the middle part. Where the lyrics would read "...life will be in your keeping" recieve a cool jazzy treatment from Herb, and the final notes are delivered by Edomondson's trombone...THAT, to my sensibilities, is what the Tijuana Brass was all about: playing imaginative arrangements that just naturally piqued ones interest. That was a quality that just MADE the Brass special, and it's one that is present on every album that they issued. Everyone has their favorites, but in the end, it was Herb Alpert's way with a song, combined with superb fellow players that made for such a fascinating outfit.
Although the Brass would have to achieve more finesse that their first two offerings provided to gain mainstream acceptance, in their ways, those earliest of Brass albums has a virtue about them that I can't describe, but I sure know it when I hear it...and I like it mucho
Remember, that just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it is that art is to be appreciated for what one finds in it, and while some may be disappointed by what is percieved as lack, yet another will find completion.
Art's always how one takes it to be...no more, and yet no less.
and that's as good as it need be
Warm Wishes,
de hookahhead who'd just LUV to have heard more of those early gems, played typically in an alternative arrangement. The fun of a T.J.B. concert, was rather than playing 'greatest hits live', what one was treated to were frequently album tracks played in a completely different fashion from the original albums. very interesting indeed
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