Todd Haynes interview

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If you dig deep enough, you will find darkness. If Todd Haynes film showed a hidden layer to Carpenters music, that can't be such a bad thing, Todd was trying to capture that darkness, he achieved that much, because the film is kind of spooky.
 
Fifty Greatest Music Films Ever,#1:
Superstar,The Karen Carpenter Story,
" This is Todd Haynes’ version of the fragile American singer’s story .
The important thing to stress is that Haynes walks an interesting tightrope between irony and sincerity with ‘Superstar’.
Certainly, there’s an element of wink-wink knowingness and satire to this extraordinary and inventive film, but his target is never Karen Carpenter.
Rather, Haynes has in his sights the hackneyed machinery with which so many filmmakers, reporters and documentarists deal with the troubled lives of artists.
Indeed, Carpenter herself emerges as a sympathetic figure, the tragic heroine of the piece.
The music, too, is treated with the utmost respect: the live scenes are often very moving,
made even more powerful by the stillness of the dolls apparently performing The Carpenters’ songs.
Formally, it’s definitely an odd experiment, but as a biographer, Haynes grapples with the essence of his subject in a linear, even traditional fashion.
The sadness of Carpenter’s story is never lost along the way.
The chances of Haynes’ 43-minute film ever getting a legal release were pretty slim
. "

Source:
http://www.timeout.com/london/film/50-greatest-music-films-ever-11
 
The use of dolls for this film was for me not so unusual. As a young child during the sixties and later as a teenager in the seventies, I was a huge fan of Gerry Anderson who produced some great shows for TV using puppets. Some of my favourite shows were "Fireball XL5", "Stingray", Thunderbirds", "Captain Scarlet & the Mysterons".
Anderson produced all of his shows using puppets and as far as I can remember, never used any animation. Perhaps Haynes' choice of dolls was not so strange, I grew up glued to the TV watching puppets.

Using unauthorised Carpenters original music throughout the film was a gamble, it was inevitable that word would get back to Richard Carpenter. The film has become part of the discussion and bewilderment of the Carpenters story.
 
I will attempt to locate the journal article which compares and contrasts the two extant Biopics.
(Someone 'out there' actually did academic research , and published, on the topic!).
I only recall one line of the journal article. saying: There were more truths to the Haynes movie than the Official CBS movie.


Keep in mind, I have never watched the Haynes Movie--simply no desire to do so.


Of course, I watched the CBS movie upon its first airing--I enjoyed the music, that's about it.
Family dynamics being what they are, I would never venture into those muddy waters.
Career-wise, however, events which surrounded the duo are a bit easier to ascertain, though, still ambiguous.
As for Album Made In America, Fan Club Newsletters clearly describe that Richard Carpenter had to decline
three separate pressings before he settled upon one, mentioning two other technical problems which held up production,
(Newsletter#70, June 1981); thus, there were problems sonically with the album. It is described in the newsletter.

Have you changed your desire and watched the film?
 
Chris, interesting question!
As I read more about the film, watching it is becoming awfully difficult to resist.
Back in the day when I first learned of this movie, there was simply no way to know anything more than
that it was the movie 'filmed with barbie-dolls', so I had zero interest-- believing it to be a cheap attempt
to make light of Karen's illness. However, as time has marched on, and other information has altered the
initial opinion I might have held-- not to mention my disappointment in the officially-sanctioned
CBS Television movie, there is a strong possibility that I will view the film in the not too distant future.
However, given the artistic license given in the CBS movie--a move which perturbed me--I can only imagine
that another movie, without Richard's participation, would be even further removed from reality.
Who knows?
 
Chris, interesting question!
As I read more about the film, watching it is becoming awfully difficult to resist.
Back in the day when I first learned of this movie, there was simply no way to know anything more than
that it was the movie 'filmed with barbie-dolls', so I had zero interest-- believing it to be a cheap attempt
to make light of Karen's illness. However, as time has marched on, and other information has altered the
initial opinion I might have held-- not to mention my disappointment in the officially-sanctioned
CBS Television movie, there is a strong possibility that I will view the film in the not too distant future.
However, given the artistic license given in the CBS movie--a move which perturbed me--I can only imagine
that another movie, without Richard's participation, would be even further removed from reality.
Who knows?

You should see it right away, it's on YouTube. It's an art/experimental film that explores different themes that fascinates Todd Haynes, who is a brilliant director. It's completely sympathetic to Karen and is the kind of film that couldn't be made today and have the same impact. It's trippy, dark, thought provoking, and the worn down bootleg VHS generation after generation copies mirrors Karen's own bodily deterioration.
 
It is interesting to note the comparisons--as extant in the google-newspaper-archives--
between how reviewers approach the CBS Movie in contrast to descriptions of the Todd Haynes Movie.
So, it is difficult for me to resist watching the Haynes Movie--eventually--in order to arrive
at my own conclusion. But, then, how wrong were those record reviewers in the 1970's when it
came to reviewing those Carpenters' albums? And, regardless of my conclusion, it is important
to realize that the Carpenters' music is not synonymous with the Carpenters' lives. Using the
Carpenters' soundtrack as a backdrop to either movie blurs the distinction between reality and
fantasy. Karen Carpenter, as a human being, will most likely never be uncovered in any biography.

William Thayer, The Art of Biography:
" Remember that one-half--I might almost say four-fifths --of a biography depends on the biographer."
 
'Superstar: The Karen Carpenter Story was banned in 1990, but bootlegs still circulate.
It was also the inspiration for UCI professor Lucas Hilderbrand’s new 2009 book:
Inherent Vice: Bootleg Histories of Videotape and Copyright.
".....But, he was “pleasantly surprised” at what happened
when he showed Superstar to undergrads a few years ago.
“Some of them sang along. They knew all the words,” he says.
“I wasn’t sure if they would even know who the Carpenters were.”

Source:
http://www.ocweekly.com/2009-08-20/...penter-lucas-hilderbrand-irvine-youtube/full/
 
If you think it would only upset you, don't watch it. It's not required viewing in order to be a C's fan.

When I read Little Girl Blue, I had to do so a little at a time. It was so much more personal, yet respectful, than I had anticipated and it was an emotional ride. I'm an avid reader, but to read this about a singer I had adored since I was 10, really touched me. I got through the first part ok because we knew by then what to expect, though not all of the details. But by the dark years, when she was truly struggling, it made me cry.

I didn't watch the barbie doll movie until recent years because the thought disturbed me. But when I did watch it, I had heard so much about it online that I was somewhat prepared. Randy Schmidt pointed out, possibly on this forum, that this movie was made before the "official" Karen Carpenter Story bio. Yet Mr Haynes had obviously done his research because he knew a lot of what most of us had no idea about until the official movie. So, love it or hate it, he had his basic info correct. Some of us find the use of dolls to be at first ridiculous and/or disturbing. But I don't think his intention was mockery. I think now that his heart was in the right place, despite the artistic license.

To each his own GaryAlan. If you're a sensitive soul, be prepared. Might be better to take a pass.
 
Song4u, I certainly appreciate the sentiment !
Yes, I wept when reading the Little Girl Blue Biography !
Although, nothing remotely approaches the feelings which overcame me on that day in 1983.
And, for all of the years since 1983, the rational side of my psyche keeps asking How and Why ?
Knowing Karen Carpenter as a human being is much harder than knowing her as the greatest singer
I have ever heard ! Granted, it is not a prerequisite for me to understand her life in order to appreciate the
music--after all I knew absolutely nothing about the woman until after 1983.
And, by that point the music was absorbed into my heart and soul--where it remains still.
Even so, although tour members and music associates have detailed the behavior of Karen's avoidance of proper
nutrition--what has not been approached is all of the other, more dangerous behaviors--how were such behaviors
so concealed from everyone? How did Karen Carpenter function in day-to-day activities? To the extent with which
she was suffering, how did all of those other behaviors escape the notice of so many people around her ?
Certainly the CBS Movie was more a career retrospective (i.e., music) than the biography of a woman.
The Haynes Movie --as I understand the situation--used Carpenters' music without authorization.
What other entity , or conceivable movie producer, could present a Biography and still expect to use Carpenters' music?
(Would the music ever be authorized?)
Has any one else sought to use Carpenters' music in another Biographical context?
The licensing fees for such an endeavor would be monetarily prohibitive (from UMG).
Ah, I am rambling...forgive me...too many questions present themselves.
 
Thank you, Newville fan! It's one of those things that just tragically goes along with the art after the fact. Life imitating art imitating life. The desire of Richard and A&M, and possibly Mattel trying to suppress Haynes's progressive, non conservative view of the world by trying to banish the film from being seen and heard, mirrors Karen's own life in ways. Even in death Karen doesn't have much control, regarding this film. I had read something once about how the VHS tapes reflect Karen's illness, so i cant take full credit, but on my own I thought about how it speaks on both personal and social levels.

It says something about a persons individuality and an (American) culture that has been sucked dry ever since. It suggests that whatever innocence was left throughout the 70s died right along with Karen, and she barely made it into the cold, corrupt 1980s where their sound was old-hat to the public. VHS tapes are a thing of the past, and they can wear out and become old and not look as sharp any more visually. If VHS' are not handled with love and care and respect they can easily have a short lived life. They can jam and their film gets torn out; they get put into something by force and they have the possibility of being ruined while trapped inside. You watch one of these tapes at home and its in the home where It's almost a metaphor for humanity in a bizarre way, and has obvious parallels in Karen's story.

The inescapably fuzzy, distorted Superstar is not only saying goodbye to an era of film viewing (DVD and blu ray and digital film now taking over), but to a real, vibrant culture and innocence that has dwindled from the world since. The world has taken vibrancy and innocence from those times (60s and 70s) and reduced it to a "relic" of the past, something to wistfully look back on, even as so many of the time allowed it to be taken over and corrupted.

It's interesting to see the visual change from Offering to Made in America, as well as the titles themselves. The first we have the two dressed in clothes of the time, their full of youth, energy and spark. They stand higher than the camera looking down slightly, with Karen holding sunflowers out in front of her. A symbol of the era used almost as a shield against what's to come, not only to her but to millions of others (particularly in the later 70s). It may not be a great picture, but it's authentic to those times.

Then you have Made In America, the last album in her lifetime. I actually love a good deal of the album, it's not as great as the early stuff but still holds up. The cover is now an airbrushed drawing, the humanity is gone from the image. Their smiling faces, a contrast to their mournful looks on "Offering", disguisng and distorting the truth; figuratively and literally (Karen didn't look like this in 1981). The two wear what almost looks like white robes of some kind, as if their in a cult or something. Both were made in America, and their product, this album, is as well. The same America that changed drastically in the early 80s and introduced new horrors and fear into the world.

It's almost less of an album title then a melancholic statement. They sprouted from and became assimilated into the American public that once loved and embraced the change they represented, like seeds become beautiful, bright flowers. By 1981 they were both spit out by and trapped inside that American popular opinion (their longevity and unwavering love from Japan and the like contrasts this). The lovely yellow sunflowers that Karen holds on "Offering" have since wilted and the color faded away. Their life is now over.

The sunflowers are fully bloomed on the cover, the seeds have already been planted, but they've been unnaturally ripped from the earth. Karen told friends that she ever never wanted to be "planted" or buried when she died.

Much like the innocent flowers, Karen is now torn from the Earth, gone, but not buried in rest. She rests above ground as she desired in peace, much like how the sunflower simply wanted the same. Karen is even dressed in the same colors as the flower in the picture, they are nearly one and the same. Karen offers herself to us and waits to plucked from Earth; they are almost eternally bound together as she existentially foreshadows the loss of her own life.
 
Thank you, Newville fan! It's one of those things that just tragically goes along with the art after the fact. Life imitating art imitating life. The desire of Richard and A&M, and possibly Mattel trying to suppress Haynes's progressive, non conservative view of the world by trying to banish the film from being seen and heard, mirrors Karen's own life in ways. Even in death Karen doesn't have much control, regarding this film. I had read something once about how the VHS tapes reflect Karen's illness, so i cant take full credit, but on my own I thought about how it speaks on both personal and social levels.

It says something about a persons individuality and an (American) culture that has been sucked dry ever since. It suggests that whatever innocence was left throughout the 70s died right along with Karen, and she barely made it into the cold, corrupt 1980s where their sound was old-hat to the public. VHS tapes are a thing of the past, and they can wear out and become old and not look as sharp any more visually. If VHS' are not handled with love and care and respect they can easily have a short lived life. They can jam and their film gets torn out; they get put into something by force and they have the possibility of being ruined while trapped inside. You watch one of these tapes at home and its in the home where It's almost a metaphor for humanity in a bizarre way, and has obvious parallels in Karen's story.

The inescapably fuzzy, distorted Superstar is not only saying goodbye to an era of film viewing (DVD and blu ray and digital film now taking over), but to a real, vibrant culture and innocence that has dwindled from the world since. The world has taken vibrancy and innocence from those times (60s and 70s) and reduced it to a "relic" of the past, something to wistfully look back on, even as so many of the time allowed it to be taken over and corrupted.

It's interesting to see the visual change from Offering to Made in America, as well as the titles themselves. The first we have the two dressed in clothes of the time, their full of youth, energy and spark. They stand higher than the camera looking down slightly, with Karen holding sunflowers out in front of her. A symbol of the era used almost as a shield against what's to come, not only to her but to millions of others (particularly in the later 70s). It may not be a great picture, but it's authentic to those times.

Then you have Made In America, the last album in her lifetime. I actually love a good deal of the album, it's not as great as the early stuff but still holds up. The cover is now an airbrushed drawing, the humanity is gone from the image. Their smiling faces, a contrast to their mournful looks on "Offering", disguisng and distorting the truth; figuratively and literally (Karen didn't look like this in 1981). The two wear what almost looks like white robes of some kind, as if their in a cult or something. Both were made in America, and their product, this album, is as well. The same America that changed drastically in the early 80s and introduced new horrors and fear into the world.

It's almost less of an album title then a melancholic statement. They sprouted from and became assimilated into the American public that once loved and embraced the change they represented, like seeds become beautiful, bright flowers. By 1981 they were both spit out by and trapped inside that American popular opinion (their longevity and unwavering love from Japan and the like contrasts this). The lovely yellow sunflowers that Karen holds on "Offering" have since wilted and the color faded away. Their life is now over.

The sunflowers are fully bloomed on the cover, the seeds have already been planted, but they've been unnaturally ripped from the earth. Karen told friends that she ever never wanted to be "planted" or buried when she died.

Much like the innocent flowers, Karen is now torn from the Earth, gone, but not buried in rest. She rests above ground as she desired in peace, much like how the sunflower simply wanted the same. Karen is even dressed in the same colors as the flower in the picture, they are nearly one and the same. Karen offers herself to us and waits to plucked from Earth; they are almost eternally bound together as she existentially foreshadows the loss of her own life.

This movie topic always seem to strike a nerve with me yet I can't really speak much of it as I've not seen it and don't care to either. My problem with all this quote above is that unless you knew Karen personally (which I'm guessing you didn't) your basically speaking on her behalf and all this symbolism is a little strange for me. Also relating her anorexia to the deteriorating of a VHS tape I feel is just in bad taste. I think these terms show disrespect to her legacy and to who she was as a person. Karen had a real illness that should not be taken lightly, it was worse than any of us could have ever known and took her life.
 
This movie topic always seem to strike a nerve with me yet I can't really speak much of it as I've not seen it and don't care to either. My problem with all this quote above is that unless you knew Karen personally (which I'm guessing you didn't) your basically speaking on her behalf and all this symbolism is a little strange for me. Also relating her anorexia to the deteriorating of a VHS tape I feel is just in bad taste. I think these terms show disrespect to her legacy and to who she was as a person. Karen had a real illness that should not be taken lightly, it was worse than any of us could have ever known and took her life.

The symbolism is strange but in a bizarre, abstract way makes a lot of sense.

The VHS analogy is valid and there have been a few scholars who have talked about it. It doesn't disrespect her at all. You need to see the movie to understand what I'm saying. It's a bootleg/cult film that's been copied over and over, and the image and sound era distorted and withers away with each generation. It's merely drawing a parallel to Karen's illness, not saying that it's anywhere near as serious as her personal issue. This is something that happened only when his film was locked down by Richard's sued and didn't give any rights to the music. The film has the utmost respect for Karen and her tragic story (the family is another thing, however).
 
Thank you, Newville fan! It's one of those things that just tragically goes along with the art after the fact. Life imitating art imitating life. The desire of Richard and A&M, and possibly Mattel trying to suppress Haynes's progressive, non conservative view of the world by trying to banish the film from being seen and heard, mirrors Karen's own life in ways. Even in death Karen doesn't have much control, regarding this film. I had read something once about how the VHS tapes reflect Karen's illness, so i cant take full credit, but on my own I thought about how it speaks on both personal and social levels.

It says something about a persons individuality and an (American) culture that has been sucked dry ever since. It suggests that whatever innocence was left throughout the 70s died right along with Karen, and she barely made it into the cold, corrupt 1980s where their sound was old-hat to the public. VHS tapes are a thing of the past, and they can wear out and become old and not look as sharp any more visually. If VHS' are not handled with love and care and respect they can easily have a short lived life. They can jam and their film gets torn out; they get put into something by force and they have the possibility of being ruined while trapped inside. You watch one of these tapes at home and its in the home where It's almost a metaphor for humanity in a bizarre way, and has obvious parallels in Karen's story.

The inescapably fuzzy, distorted Superstar is not only saying goodbye to an era of film viewing (DVD and blu ray and digital film now taking over), but to a real, vibrant culture and innocence that has dwindled from the world since. The world has taken vibrancy and innocence from those times (60s and 70s) and reduced it to a "relic" of the past, something to wistfully look back on, even as so many of the time allowed it to be taken over and corrupted.

It's interesting to see the visual change from Offering to Made in America, as well as the titles themselves. The first we have the two dressed in clothes of the time, their full of youth, energy and spark. They stand higher than the camera looking down slightly, with Karen holding sunflowers out in front of her. A symbol of the era used almost as a shield against what's to come, not only to her but to millions of others (particularly in the later 70s). It may not be a great picture, but it's authentic to those times.

Then you have Made In America, the last album in her lifetime. I actually love a good deal of the album, it's not as great as the early stuff but still holds up. The cover is now an airbrushed drawing, the humanity is gone from the image. Their smiling faces, a contrast to their mournful looks on "Offering", disguisng and distorting the truth; figuratively and literally (Karen didn't look like this in 1981). The two wear what almost looks like white robes of some kind, as if their in a cult or something. Both were made in America, and their product, this album, is as well. The same America that changed drastically in the early 80s and introduced new horrors and fear into the world.

It's almost less of an album title then a melancholic statement. They sprouted from and became assimilated into the American public that once loved and embraced the change they represented, like seeds become beautiful, bright flowers. By 1981 they were both spit out by and trapped inside that American popular opinion (their longevity and unwavering love from Japan and the like contrasts this). The lovely yellow sunflowers that Karen holds on "Offering" have since wilted and the color faded away. Their life is now over.

The sunflowers are fully bloomed on the cover, the seeds have already been planted, but they've been unnaturally ripped from the earth. Karen told friends that she ever never wanted to be "planted" or buried when she died.

Much like the innocent flowers, Karen is now torn from the Earth, gone, but not buried in rest. She rests above ground as she desired in peace, much like how the sunflower simply wanted the same. Karen is even dressed in the same colors as the flower in the picture, they are nearly one and the same. Karen offers herself to us and waits to plucked from Earth; they are almost eternally bound together as she existentially foreshadows the loss of her own life.
I have to commend you, Charlie, for excellent writing and analysis! I have not seen the Todd Haynes film and am thus unable to provide my own viewpoint. And I won't jump into this argument. Others here are also giving heartfelt thoughts and analyses on this sensitive topic, and I am appreciative of everyone's views.
 
I have to commend you, Charlie, for excellent writing and analysis! I have not seen the Todd Haynes film and am thus unable to provide my own viewpoint. And I won't jump into this argument. Others here are also giving heartfelt thoughts and analyses on this sensitive topic, and I am appreciative of everyone's views.

Thank you so much! I love Karen and the music with every fiber of me being and I don't mean at all to offend anyone. I think the movie is a real piece of art cinema and worthy of discussion and analysis, it's made by a man who loves Karen as much as we do.
 
I'm actually really surprised that there are so many of you who haven't seen the film yet, as it's been available online for years. Curiosity got the better of me nearly 20 years ago, and it didn't kill this cat! :hkitty:

The film may seem weird at first, what with using Barbie dolls as "actors", but I do believe that Haynes was genuinely sympathetic to Karen's story. I think that every serious fan owes it to themselves to at least watch it once, if only to be able to have an "informed" opinion.
 
I'm actually really surprised that there are so many of you who haven't seen the film yet, as it's been available online for years. Curiosity got the better of me nearly 20 years ago, and it didn't kill this cat! :hkitty:

The film may seem weird at first, what with using Barbie dolls as "actors", but I do believe that Haynes was genuinely sympathetic to Karen's story. I think that every serious fan owes it to themselves to at least watch it once, if only to be able to have an "informed" opinion.

Yeah, right? I can't believe some diehards on this board haven't seen the movie yet. Like you said, it's been online for a long time and any fan would want to track down a VHS tape.

I think people don't want to see it because it's going against Richard wishes or they assume its cheap and sensationalistic or mocks Karen. It mocks the rest of the family, certainly and deservedly, but not her. There's countless layers why dolls are used and Haynes really pulled it off.
 
Fascinating perspectives.
Tangentially, I might point out:
What medical doctor would have prescribed Synthroid medication to Karen ?
If she had no known thyroid problem, how would such a prescription be warranted?
Also, I recall the instance where Phil Ramone summoned the paramedics because of
another different prescription medication Karen had taken. Where are these prescriptions originating?
Those, just two of many questions which could be put forth.
Chris-AnOrdinaryFool, pretty much sums it up: Karen's illness was worse than we can ever know.
 
How bad it was expertly described by the pathologist in that 'Last hours' documentary.

Unbelievable to someone that not afflicted by this condition
 
I think that in the four years this thread has been open, all that can be said has been said, and it's veered off into non-musical territories. Please continue your discussions in private as this thread is closed.

Harry
...and the A&M Corner moderating team...
 
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