I Believe You. No promotion

[LondonRobert]

i will have to have another listen to the vinyl and compare

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I still think that "I Just Fall In Love Again" sounds like Karen was in the latter stages of a head cold. I can hear the nasal quality in her voice.

I think she would have needed to rerecord her lead vocal to at least make the record sound better.

I have always felt this as well. It's the only song out of the entire catalog I've felt this way about...Karen don't you know your not allowed to get colds lol

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I agree, although there's a couple of tracks that don't quite sound 'right' to me on passage.
It's almost as if Karen's vocals have been put through some sort of machine that has given them an artificial sort of 'edge', I can't quite put my finger on it, it's as if Richard wanted that pre 'now and then' album vocal sound, but did it artificially.
I could of course just be talking a load of rubbish!

Robert what tracks on Passage are you referring to?

 

[GaryAlan]

Recorded 1978:
I Believe You
Where Do I Go From Here
Honolulu City Lights
When I Fall In Love
Slow Dance
Little Girl Blue
Dancing In The Streets
Dance In The Old-Fashioned Way
Leave Yesterday Behind

Adding:
You're The One (1977)
Ordinary Fool (1976)
Trying To Get The Feeling Again (1975)

I'd say some kind of Album, there.....

 

[Carpe diem]

In reference to I Just Fall In Love Again; I wish the song could be pulled back 2 years prior, during the "Horizon" sessions. The sound of that record (or should I say what Karen sounded like) is so much more outstanding than "Passage". As good as Karen's performance was (and I still think it's great), imagine how much better it COULD have been without the distractions (Karen's head cold, chorus, fuzz guitar solo, overproduction, and the whole recording on a sound stage thing). Too bad, because the song was tailor made for Karen's vocals.

 

[Rumbahbah]

Recorded 1978:
I Believe You
Where Do I Go From Here
Honolulu City Lights
When I Fall In Love
Slow Dance
Little Girl Blue
Dancing In The Streets
Dance In The Old-Fashioned Way
Leave Yesterday Behind

Adding:
You're The One (1977)
Ordinary Fool (1976)
Trying To Get The Feeling Again (1975)

I'd say some kind of Album, there.....

There was of course 'Thank You for the Music' as well.

There's enough tracks there to fill up an album, but what a random mix of styles. Too many covers and not a hit among them (I'm ignoring the earlier outtakes recorded before 1978 when I say that).

 

[Mark-T]

I did not know Dance in the Old Fashioned Way was a studio track. Just our duo??? I LOVE that song!

 

[GaryAlan]

^^Hard to believe I forgot to include
Thank You For The Music !
Thanks for bringing that one to my attention.

^^And, as Mark points out, Dance In The Old-Fashioned Way
is not--strictly speaking--a "studio recording", although surely
Karen's vocals were recorded in the A&M studio (?).

However, I believe all of those 1978 songs are similar enough in style to create
a coherent sequence of songs for a nice album.

 

[Chris May]

All good points here. Another issue with this album that we've covered before (that often gets overlooked), is the technique in which it was recorded and mixed. There was a very narrow field with regard to the stereo mixing and sub-mixing on a lot of these masters. One of these days if I can get him to do it, I would love to nail Richard down to talk more about this. He's a little guarded with the post-'76/'77 era when talking about most things production, which may very well have a lot to do with where he was at personally during that time (perhaps memory lapse, missed/undocumented details etc.).

One of the things about I Just Fall In Love on Karen's lead was that even the reverb tail, like with several of the other tracks on the album, was very narrow in the mix - less stereo, added compression overall both on the master lead track as well as during the final mastering process.

By the time you add all of these factors in, you get a whole different "sound" than you might have on previous or subsequent albums, simply due to the techniques that were utilized during the recording and mixing process here. I truly believe this is what most are hearing when referring to Karen perhaps having a head cold. She may very well have had something going on, but she and Richard both have a natural nasal quality to their voices. Taking into account again what I mentioned about the recording/mixing techniques on this album, which differed from most if not all of their previous projects to some extent, these factors alone could very well address some of the observations about the lead vocal.

 

[GaryAlan]

^^Regards the so-called "head-cold" sound,
I've always felt that the leads on the 1976 Television Medley,
and, too, with the 1976 Palladium vocals,
all of these had that 'head-cold' quality to my ears--much more so
than the song I Just Fall In Love Again.

Thanks, Chris,
for thinking of approaching Richard Carpenters as to more detail !

 

[Chris May]

^^Regards the so-called "head-cold" sound,
I've always felt that the leads on the 1976 Television Medley,
and, too, with the 1976 Palladium vocals,
all of these had that 'head-cold' quality to my ears--much more so
than the song I Just Fall In Love Again.

Thanks, Chris,
for thinking of approaching Richard Carpenters as to more detail !

And again my point completely. In the case of those shows, they not only had limited sonic control with regard to the live studio environment vs. a controlled recording studio, but also had the vocals coming into a completely different console and being picked up on Shure microphones vs. the Neumann that was typically used on Karen's lead at A&M. Those leads really didn't record nearly as well as the stuff that went on tape for the album recordings, not to mention Karen often stylized her vocals the way she did in concert - with a much different inflection on certain words and what not.

 

[newvillefan]

There's enough tracks there to fill up an album, but what a random mix of styles. Too many covers and not a hit among them (I'm ignoring the earlier outtakes recorded before 1978 when I say that).

Stylistically, Richard was all over the place by 1978. There doesn’t seem to have been any plan in place to release an album (aside from the Christmas album) and he seems to have decided to record whatever came along that caught his/their ear (evidenced by hearing Honolulu City Lights on holiday and deciding to record that). For All We Know was born in a similar way but by the late seventies, he seemed to have lost his knack for spotting potential dynamite material.

I’ve said it before but Richard seems to have been fundamentally unable to stretch and grow the Carpenters as producer/artist from the late seventies onwards and I do think this is why they ended up floundering by 1981/1982, stylistically speaking. With Karen as the obvious star of the act, he should have looked around at what artists like Ronstadt and Streisand were doing. Even from within the duo, Karen had the most marvellous potential had she had her wings clipped, but she was never given the freedom or room to breathe and grow. The same formula that worked in 1970 was old hat by 1981.

 

[LondonRobert]

Robert what tracks on Passage are you referring to?

Well definitely I just fall in love again, two sides ( in particular - well theres two sides, theres another side of me, theres the one you thought you lived with, the one you never see............ ) it just seems to kick in when she goes up in her register at that bit.
its there a little bit on other tracks, i just dont hear it on any other album......

 

[GaryAlan]

Cassette tape, anyone ?
I'm Listening to the cassette tape of Passage--
no issues that I can discern.
In fact, the very cassette that I purchased at "The Record Bar"....in 1977.
Hey, I still love this album.....

 

[LondonRobert]

Cassette tape, anyone ?
I'm Listening to the cassette tape of Passage--
no issues that I can discern.
In fact, the very cassette that I purchased at "The Record Bar"....in 1977.
Hey, I still love this album.....

Yes, i agree, i love it too.
I don't dislike anything in the album at all, i even have a vinyl cover displayed in two special album frames on my wall, so it look sjust as it does when opened up - i wish they had continued in this style rather than MIA

 

[Harry]

The "head-cold" sound that I hear is a certain nasal quality that happens when the nasal passages are compromised, either after one clears them or uses drops or sprays - there's still a lingering resonant quality that remains. In "I Just Fall In Love Again", give a close listen to the phrase:

"...Mmagic, it mmust be mmagic..."

One can hear the nasal ringing on the "m" sounds.

In the PALLADIUM disc, the nasal quality is I believe a result of the way Karen was holding her microphone. If you've ever used a microphone, you'll know that there's a sweet spot where the mic will pick up the sounds coming from the mouth equally distributed with the sounds coming from the nose. Yes, those "m" and "n" sounds come through the nose, and it's a delicate balancing at to get the mic placed just right to avoid too much nose or not enough nose. (Go ahead, hold your nose, and try to say the above phrase, "Magic, it must be magic." Those "m's" will come out sounding like "b's".)

Karen was usually very adept at using the microphone. I can only imagine some problem at the PALLADIUM show might have caused her to use a different mic or something like that. The mic at the television medley doesn't seem as bad to me.

 

[jaredjohnfisher]

Stylistically, Richard was all over the place by 1978. There doesn’t seem to have been any plan in place to release an album (aside from the Christmas album) and he seems to have decided to record whatever came along that caught his/their ear (evidenced by hearing Honolulu City Lights on holiday and deciding to record that). For All We Know was born in a similar way but by the late seventies, he seemed to have lost his knack for spotting potential dynamite material.

I’ve said it before but Richard seems to have been fundamentally unable to stretch and grow the Carpenters as producer/artist from the late seventies onwards and I do think this is why they ended up floundering by 1981/1982, stylistically speaking. With Karen as the obvious star of the act, he should have looked around at what artists like Ronstadt and Streisand were doing. Even from within the duo, Karen had the most marvellous potential had she had her wings clipped, but she was never given the freedom or room to breathe and grow. The same formula that worked in 1970 was old hat by 1981.

In all fairness, For All We Know, isn’t necessarily a better song. Their sound was new; they were climbing the crest of their fame and at that point the public was hungry for their next new single. By 78, they were definitely riding the downhill slope.

 

[CraigGA]

For whatever it’s worth, I feel that Chris May has the best explanation for what happened during the Passage sessions. I just relistened to I’ll Just Fall In Love Again and it still gives me chills as the first time listen. Just think if they had used the usual studio mic and recorded Karen as usual and the compression ratio was not involved with her mix. It would have been extraordinary. I refuse to believe they had less fans, and I will always feel that the wrong songs were chosen to draw wide appeal for purchase. They had some songs in the 1978 sessions that would have marketed well, but they can’t sell sitting on a shelf. They were both caught up in health issues to even market themselves well as Chris May mentioned. Then add some of Karen’s solo material if released in 1978-1979, I think there would have been a better marketing platform. I also agree with nevillefan that Karen was now the focus and more should have been done to showcase her as a solo artist. That way, the stylistic change could be easier explained, then back to the Carpenters for family based specials mixed in. I think people would have liked to see Richard branch out as well. They were so talented but not the machines that seemed forced upon them for production without opportunities and tools for living life. So, to recap, I like the songs and the best we’re still on the shelf and the pressures were great and opportunities missed. I also think they were trying to showcase raw talent, performed all at once on stage without studio magic in the mix on Passage. Some of it missed trying to catch the sound in this environment but it’s still good. We just know we miss the extravagant polishes that were done on Horizon. All of this seems like babble now, but I’m glad we have what we do for it is no longer on the shelf. It is amazing that they were so dedicated. Sometimes as fans, it’s good to look at a positive side for we start to hear different things. Every artist needs to breathe individually as well as celebrate together.

 

[David A]

I've said before elsewhere and stand by the view that TMWWD is very much a 1981 song. It sounds like something the duo behind 'Boy Meets Girl' would have written. The fact that it placed in the top 20 - and would have almost certainly charted higher with the proper promotion - would seem to support that. So Richard had it in him; but he wasn't consistent and, anyway, the damage done to their image through the previous 3 or 4 years, both personally and with music choices, may have rendered it moot.

 

[CraigGA]

I honestly feel that all artists have an ebb and flow and eventually the pendulum would return. They sold too many records in the early 70’s not to be missed. There was an epic amount of attention to the duo from 1970-1975. The international concerts the following year broke the record books that probably would have happened the year prior had they not been cancelled. 1976 did not have a stellar song and that’s when things slowed down. But slow was still not bad, just not epic. It was the year with the most watching without a magic type song for the US. But, thank God they did not stop for some great material from the TV specials and Christmas have remained most treasured and I Need To Be In Love from 1976 did finally get recognition but in Japan twenty years later. There is so much more out there to put here, that to me gives proof that the pendulum would have swung again. There is one more perspective: if nether had pooped out from the demands of their career and continued functioning as machines, I believe it would have happened sooner than later. They had to try to make time for life, too.

 

[adam]

Like Goofus.I Believe You. is a pleasent Album cut but not Hit Single material

 

[John Adam]

For what it's worth, two quick fixes to the lyrics --- 40 years later:

"I'd live anywhere that you wanted to."

"And love will grow into a friendly little girl who looks like we do."

Now he thinks he's John Bettis!

 

[CraigGA]

I will always feel that Bwana She No Home should have been the lead single from Passage with I Just Fall In Love Again as the follow up. Sweet Sweet Smile was perfect for the third and its chart success on the country charts proved it. At least it gave a buzz for interviews and a something to help chart Passage. As an aside, the TV special Space Encounters was good with the music, it was just a bad script. If Passage had come out after Horizon it would have sold more but Hush kinda put the nails into their career as the easiest of the easy listening artists. After the Japan concert in 1976 the rest of the year should have been to build Passage, but I am sure the record business put on the pressure. Passage is a great album and showcases creativity as Horizon showcases the true artistry of their talents. Both, however suffer from the need of more tracks. It is my only issue. The songs are all stellar. They may not be everyone’s taste in selections but they are done to perfection as select cuisine.
I agree with the 1978 album and Where Do I Go From Here could have been the release before the album. I Believe You vocals are great, really out of this world great, but the text is almost silly and the music similar to an angelic Disney track. Maybe the 1978 tracks were not finished as Richard was not in the best of health that year.
I have been listening to them tonight and they were fantastic. Even the songs that were not their best are still great for listening pleasure for us fans!
Compression is a necessary evil and all those instruments as if in a live setting were a great challenge, I’m sure. Then to have the album mastered so that all the tracks sounded as if they were all recorded at the same time added to the challenge. I wish they had made a second recording of Karen using the Neumann mike. I wonder if there are lead tracks that used it? But those probably have decayed by now if they survived. I am happy with what we have, and thankful for I have been listening all these years.

 

[GaryAlan]

I notice that Passage times-out at a length of 38 minutes, 39 seconds.
Horizon comes in at 34 minutes, 13 seconds.
The Tan Album, Carpenters, comes in at 29 minutes, 36 seconds.

The tan album is quite the shortest time-wise.
I rarely read about the brevity of the Tan album, for my tastes
it was the album that needed more tracks.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I notice that Passage times-out at a length of 38 minutes, 39 seconds.
Horizon comes in at 34 minutes, 13 seconds.
The Tan Album, Carpenters, comes in at 29 minutes, 36 seconds.

The tan album is quite the shortest time-wise.
I rarely read about the brevity of the Tan album, for my tastes
it was the album that needed more tracks.

"Carpenters" had 10 tracks just like an album should. It's just that many of them are rather short. "Saturday" is 1:20. It's like an interlude time-wise, yet it's got enough of a form to be a full song. Four others are a bit over 2 minutes with the melody being the longest thing here.

Ed