Solo Album and Single Success

[newvillefan]

Though I will say plenty of mediocre albums have sold well with the right marketing. Not that Karen's album was mediocre (IMHO- I love it), but she could have made people see her differently. Not a bad thing.

And I think that’s what she was hoping for. But that alone doesn’t make a record company money. That said, I think she’d earned the right by that point to have them take a chance on it. They did with Richard’s album and look how that turned out (did I just say that last bit out loud? )

 

[Mark-T]

She definitely earned the right.

 

[David A]

[SNIP] They did with Richard’s album and look how that turned out (did I just say that last bit out loud? )

I think that's a different calculation, though; Karen had passed and the Carpenters, as a group, were nevermore.

Had Karen's album bombed badly, it may have not only lost money; at least in theory it may have harmed the Carpenters' chance at a revival. No one knew, then, that Karen only had a few years left to live.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I think that's a different calculation, though; Karen had passed and the Carpenters, as a group, were nevermore.

Had Karen's album bombed badly, it may have not only lost money; at least in theory it may have harmed the Carpenters' chance at a revival. No one knew, then, that Karen only had a few years left to live.

Carpenters were already not selling. "Passage" didn't do well. "Christmas Portrait" did but that's a whole different thing. They simply weren't moving product so "Karen Carpenter" likely wouldn't have hurt a thing.

Ed

 

[tomswift2002]

I think Karen's album would've been a hit in the year 1980. There were still disco hits in that year (a lot of people seem to think that once December 31, 1979 came and went, disco dug its own grave and laid down in it), so I think Karen would've maybe had a Top Ten or Top Twenty hit with My Body Keeps Changing My Mind or Lovelines. You had like Lipps, Inc.'s Funkytown, Kool & The Gang's Celebration, Diana Ross' Upside Down.

Plus as former label-mates The Captain and Tenille showed, there was still space on the charts for a song like Do That To Me One More Time, and Karen's If I Had You would've probably been a big hit as well (and, as of 2020, If I Had You is still the Carpenters last charting single on Billboard, hitting #18 on the A/C chart in 1989).

Really, Karen's solo album should've been released, since their 1981 Made In America is a highly inferior product.

 

[newvillefan]

Really, Karen's solo album should've been released, since their 1981 Made In America is a highly inferior product.

This is just an observation not a criticism, but it feels to me as if Richard could do no wrong in A&M’s eyes. Herb mentioned to him that their 1976 album wasn’t up to par but it went forward anyway...and so did Made In America. Why wasn’t anyone saying to Richard what they said to Karen: “We don’t think this will sell all that well?”. In the end, it didn’t and the chart placings for most of its singles were embarrassing to say the least. Their supposed comeback single Touch Me When We’re Dancing didn’t chart at all in some of the countries they were promoting it in, including the UK.

 

[Harry]

Is there an echo in here?

 

[David A]

Carpenters were already not selling. "Passage" didn't do well. "Christmas Portrait" did but that's a whole different thing. They simply weren't moving product so "Karen Carpenter" likely wouldn't have hurt a thing.

Ed

True, in terms of sales and moving product at that point.

But I don't think you release something judged to be inferior, just because they were already not selling. That makes no sense to me; rather, you'd be looking to sell something you judge to hopefully turn things around.

Let me be clear; Of COURSE I wish Karen's album had been released. I _personally_ don't think it was "bad" and had some good stuff that might have charted, albeit no "smash" hits, in my view. I'm trying to be objective about the issue and understand that there were a number of factors that likely went into the decision not to release it. I think there were both emotional and pure business calculations.

Now here's more pure, unadulterated speculation; at least in terms of Herb and Jerry, as businessmen, is it possible that they saw Karen's potential future as a solo star, but felt that this was not the gem they envisioned would launch her into solo stardom, at some point in the future?

 

[newvillefan]

Now here's more pure, unadulterated speculation; at least in terms of Herb and Jerry, as businessmen, is it possible that they saw Karen's potential future as a solo star, but felt that this was not the gem they envisioned would launch her into solo stardom, at some point in the future?

Very plausible scenario! They were businessmen at the end of the day and maybe knew the Carpenters only had a certain shelf life as a commercially successful act. If anything, they must have realised this shelf life was already coming to an end by the late 1970s. Then when Made In America was released, that kinda went nowhere either, thus possibly reinforcing the view that it wasn’t going to last. Of course we’ll never know now, because Karen’s illness got in the way in the last year of her life and threw them off kilter but one thing must be certain: A&M wouldn’t have gone on financing albums forever that just weren’t making much of a profit.

Had this scenario kept on going, maybe in the end it would have all come full circle: people urging Herb to just “cut his losses and let them go”. Not that he ever would as individuals of course, but as a duo? Quite possibly.

 

[tomswift2002]

This is just an observation not a criticism, but it feels to me as if Richard could do no wrong in A&M’s eyes. Herb mentioned to him that their 1976 album wasn’t up to par but it went forward anyway...and so did Made In America. Why wasn’t anyone saying to Richard what they said to Karen: “We don’t think this will sell all that well?”. In the end, it didn’t and the chart placings for most of its singles were embarrassing to say the least. Their supposed comeback single Touch Me When We’re Dancing didn’t chart at all in some of the countries they were promoting it in, including the UK.

Someone should've since they left all the good Made In America tracks in the vault (except for Back In My Life Again, Touch Me When We're Dancing & Beechwood 4-5789).

 

[Rumbahbah]

Very plausible scenario! They were businessmen at the end of the day and maybe knew the Carpenters only had a certain shelf life as a commercially successful act. If anything, they must have realised this shelf life was already coming to an end by the late 1970s. Then when Made In America was released, that kinda went nowhere either, thus possibly reinforcing the view that it wasn’t going to last. Of course we’ll never know now, because Karen’s illness got in the way in the last year of her life and threw them off kilter but one thing must be certain: A&M wouldn’t have gone on financing albums forever that just weren’t making much of a profit.

Had this scenario kept on going, maybe in the end it would have all come full circle: people urging Herb to just “cut his losses and let them go”. Not that he ever would as individuals of course, but as a duo? Quite possibly.

From what we do know about the events surrounding the solo album, I have to say I don't think this was the case ... at least not at this point. A&M were involved in setting up the solo album, but I get the distinct impression that it was being used almost as a form of insurance, given that Richard was out of action in 1979 and it wasn't clear when (or even if) he would return at that stage. But the focus was still on the Carpenters as the main act and so when it came to choosing between the two options in 1980 - and I think in a sense it was a choice because if the solo album had been put out, work on a new Carpenters album would inevitably have been delayed - as the Billboard article in 1980 so aptly put it, 'the duo takes precedence'.

In Randy's recent Illustrated Discography book, an A&M staffer commenting on Made in America said that A&M believed strongly in the album and were committed to supporting it, hence all the money spent on foreign promotional trips, videos, etc. I'm still confused as to what they thought the big hit singles would be on it, but it's clear that they were expecting it to do much better commerically than it did. As such, Herb and Jerry were still signed up to the idea of the duo as a viable commerical act in 1981 and I don't think that they'd have been under any threat of being dropped for the foreseeable future. Perhaps they might have run into trouble when A&M was sold in 1989, but not before.

Stephen, re your other point about Richard's standing in A&M's eyes, Herb and Jerry clearly had huge respect for Richard's abilities and instincts - and rightly so, since between 1970 and 1975 he'd hardly put a foot wrong in terms of achieving hits for them. But as I commented recently in the thread discussing them as a live act, Karen and Richard as an act were largely left to their own devices creatively by A&M and their management, which gave them (and Richard primarily as the head decision-maker) an unusual degree of autonomy in terms of choosing what to record and even what songs to release as singles. Given that they were a self-produced act too, they had very little outside influence on them at all. That's all fine when the hits are coming and the product is good, but it's clear that A&M still didn't get involved once things started tailing off commercially and the quality started to slip. Normally record company interference in terms of what should be on an album or what should be a single is seen as a bad thing, but I think it might actually have been a good thing in hindsight, as no one was giving any outside perspective and I think they really needed that by 1976. Think how grateful most of us would have been if Herb had, say, taken Richard aside in 1977 and said 'Do you have something else that could take the place of "Man Smart, Woman Smarter" on the album?'(!)

Herb's famous comment about A Kind of Hush makes it clear that he knew it wasn't up to snuff, and following Horizon's slightly muted chart performance, you'd have expected the record label to have focused on making sure the follow-up was as strong as it could be to turn things around. But they didn't do anything - not even suggesting minor tweaks like the album needed a stronger single or, say, replacing a couple of the weaker tracks. And from what I know of other recording acts, that's quite unusual. That's what makes their reaction of seemingly giving the solo album both barrels so strange in musical terms - as far as I can tell, before this, they had never once seriously involved themselves in critiquing the track selection or the quality of the songs on Carpenters albums. Then all of a sudden, they write off the solo album as not just problematic, but so uniformly problematic that it was completely unsalvageable. Regardless of any other factors that might have been involved, that looks like a complete 180 in their attitude and as such it's little surprise that some have viewed that turnaround with suspicion.

 

[Carpe diem]

^^WOW!...I mean, just...WOW!

 

[David A]

From what we do know about the events surrounding the solo album, I have to say I don't think this was the case ... at least not at this point. A&M were involved in setting up the solo album, but I get the distinct impression that it was being used almost as a form of insurance, given that Richard was out of action in 1979 and it wasn't clear when (or even if) he would return at that stage. But the focus was still on the Carpenters as the main act and so when it came to choosing between the two options in 1980 - and I think in a sense it was a choice because if the solo album had been put out, work on a new Carpenters album would inevitably have been delayed - as the Billboard article in 1980 so aptly put it, 'the duo takes precedence'.

In Randy's recent Illustrated Discography book, an A&M staffer commenting on Made in America said that A&M believed strongly in the album and were committed to supporting it, hence all the money spent on foreign promotional trips, videos, etc. I'm still confused as to what they thought the big hit singles would be on it, but it's clear that they were expecting it to do much better commerically than it did. As such, Herb and Jerry were still signed up to the idea of the duo as a viable commerical act in 1981 and I don't think that they'd have been under any threat of being dropped for the foreseeable future. Perhaps they might have run into trouble when A&M was sold in 1989, but not before.

Stephen, re your other point about Richard's standing in A&M's eyes, Herb and Jerry clearly had huge respect for Richard's abilities and instincts - and rightly so, since between 1970 and 1975 he'd hardly put a foot wrong in terms of achieving hits for them. But as I commented recently in the thread discussing them as a live act, Karen and Richard as an act were largely left to their own devices creatively by A&M and their management, which gave them (and Richard primarily as the head decision-maker) an unusual degree of autonomy in terms of choosing what to record and even what songs to release as singles. Given that they were a self-produced act too, they had very little outside influence on them at all. That's all fine when the hits are coming and the product is good, but it's clear that A&M still didn't get involved once things started tailing off commercially and the quality started to slip. Normally record company interference in terms of what should be on an album or what should be a single is seen as a bad thing, but I think it might actually have been a good thing in hindsight, as no one was giving any outside perspective and I think they really needed that by 1976. Think how grateful most of us would have been if Herb had, say, taken Richard aside in 1977 and said 'Do you have something else that could take the place of "Man Smart, Woman Smarter" on the album?'(!)

Herb's famous comment about A Kind of Hush makes it clear that he knew it wasn't up to snuff, and following Horizon's slightly muted chart performance, you'd have expected the record label to have focused on making sure the follow-up was as strong as it could be to turn things around. But they didn't do anything - not even suggesting minor tweaks like the album needed a stronger single or, say, replacing a couple of the weaker tracks. And from what I know of other recording acts, that's quite unusual. That's what makes their reaction of seemingly giving the solo album both barrels so strange in musical terms - as far as I can tell, before this, they had never once seriously involved themselves in critiquing the track selection or the quality of the songs on Carpenters albums. Then all of a sudden, they write off the solo album as not just problematic, but so uniformly problematic that it was completely unsalvageable. Regardless of any other factors that might have been involved, that looks like a complete 180 in their attitude and as such it's little surprise that some have viewed that turnaround with suspicion.

Very nicely written and insightful analysis. Your points about how the label left Karen and Richard mostly to their own creative devices, and juxtaposing that with how they reacted to Karen's solo effort, is poignant and thought-provoking.

With the benefit of hindsight, it does seem that the Carpenters may have been better served with more creative input/guidance from the label.

 

[newvillefan]

That's what makes their reaction of seemingly giving the solo album both barrels so strange in musical terms - as far as I can tell, before this, they had never once seriously involved themselves in critiquing the track selection or the quality of the songs on Carpenters albums. Then all of a sudden, they write off the solo album as not just problematic, but so uniformly problematic that it was completely unsalvageable. Regardless of any other factors that might have been involved, that looks like a complete 180 in their attitude and as such it's little surprise that some have viewed that turnaround with suspicion.

Very nicely written and insightful analysis. Your points about how the label left Karen and Richard mostly to their own creative devices, and juxtaposing that with how they reacted to Karen's solo effort, is poignant and thought-provoking.

Agree 100% with this! Very interesting analysis of the situation @Rumbahbah and I definitely agree that Herb and Jerry’s approach to the solo album in comparison to all the Carpenters albums does make you think.

Richard and Karen were very, very lucky to have the autonomy that they did, because even then it was a rare thing. Nowadays it’s almost unheard of. Record labels have the power to drop a new artist if their second or third single or album doesn’t go top 10 and they regular do just that. There’s very little nurturing of artists these days and almost no focus on longevity compared to what A&M did with their roster. Had Richard and Karen been with any other label, they may never have gotten past first base. Imagine a world in which the Carpenters had never happened!

 

[GDBY2LV]

A&M were awesome and very generous to their artists. How many albums did the Alessi
brothers get to record with almost no success here? As well as many others. Most majors would have kicked them to the curb after the first flop. So grateful to Mr. Alpert’s gifted ears and bigger heart. Happy 50th to you!

 

[GDBY2LV]

That was supposed to read: Happy 50th to Close To You. I received that email this morning as well. I guessing those that ordered from the website received it too. Nice surprise.

 

[A&M Retro]

From what we do know about the events surrounding the solo album, I have to say I don't think this was the case ... at least not at this point. A&M were involved in setting up the solo album, but I get the distinct impression that it was being used almost as a form of insurance, given that Richard was out of action in 1979 and it wasn't clear when (or even if) he would return at that stage. But the focus was still on the Carpenters as the main act and so when it came to choosing between the two options in 1980 - and I think in a sense it was a choice because if the solo album had been put out, work on a new Carpenters album would inevitably have been delayed - as the Billboard article in 1980 so aptly put it, 'the duo takes precedence'.

In Randy's recent Illustrated Discography book, an A&M staffer commenting on Made in America said that A&M believed strongly in the album and were committed to supporting it, hence all the money spent on foreign promotional trips, videos, etc. I'm still confused as to what they thought the big hit singles would be on it, but it's clear that they were expecting it to do much better commerically than it did. As such, Herb and Jerry were still signed up to the idea of the duo as a viable commerical act in 1981 and I don't think that they'd have been under any threat of being dropped for the foreseeable future. Perhaps they might have run into trouble when A&M was sold in 1989, but not before.

Stephen, re your other point about Richard's standing in A&M's eyes, Herb and Jerry clearly had huge respect for Richard's abilities and instincts - and rightly so, since between 1970 and 1975 he'd hardly put a foot wrong in terms of achieving hits for them. But as I commented recently in the thread discussing them as a live act, Karen and Richard as an act were largely left to their own devices creatively by A&M and their management, which gave them (and Richard primarily as the head decision-maker) an unusual degree of autonomy in terms of choosing what to record and even what songs to release as singles. Given that they were a self-produced act too, they had very little outside influence on them at all. That's all fine when the hits are coming and the product is good, but it's clear that A&M still didn't get involved once things started tailing off commercially and the quality started to slip. Normally record company interference in terms of what should be on an album or what should be a single is seen as a bad thing, but I think it might actually have been a good thing in hindsight, as no one was giving any outside perspective and I think they really needed that by 1976. Think how grateful most of us would have been if Herb had, say, taken Richard aside in 1977 and said 'Do you have something else that could take the place of "Man Smart, Woman Smarter" on the album?'(!)

Herb's famous comment about A Kind of Hush makes it clear that he knew it wasn't up to snuff, and following Horizon's slightly muted chart performance, you'd have expected the record label to have focused on making sure the follow-up was as strong as it could be to turn things around. But they didn't do anything - not even suggesting minor tweaks like the album needed a stronger single or, say, replacing a couple of the weaker tracks. And from what I know of other recording acts, that's quite unusual. That's what makes their reaction of seemingly giving the solo album both barrels so strange in musical terms - as far as I can tell, before this, they had never once seriously involved themselves in critiquing the track selection or the quality of the songs on Carpenters albums. Then all of a sudden, they write off the solo album as not just problematic, but so uniformly problematic that it was completely unsalvageable. Regardless of any other factors that might have been involved, that looks like a complete 180 in their attitude and as such it's little surprise that some have viewed that turnaround with suspicion.

Great summation of a chapter in their story that will always infuriate me. You just nailed it (pun intended)!

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

A&M were awesome and very generous to their artists. How many albums did the Alessi
brothers get to record with almost no success here? As well as many others. Most majors would have kicked them to the curb after the first flop. So grateful to Mr. Alpert’s gifted ears and bigger heart. Happy 50th to you!

Some of that was the time period too. They could afford to do it. Nowadays, the first single flops, the album that you may have gotten to record is shelved, and you get dropped.

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

I’ve always felt the original solo album tracklist was all over the place and has never sat right with me in its original order. Just for fun and my own listening pleasure, I had the idea of creating my own version of the album on Spotify (complete with its original cover for the purposes of historical accuracy) with what I think would have been a much better running order stylistically, removing the God-awful All Because Of You completely, which I’ve always felt was a waste of space and one ballad too many.

Side A
1. Lovelines
2. Make Believe It’s Your First Time
3. If I Had You
4. Making Love In The Afternoon
5. Still Crazy After All These Years

Side B
1. Still In Love With You
2. My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
3. Guess I Just Lost My Head
4. If We Try
5. Remember When Lovin’ Took All Night

 

[Joeyesterday]

Yes! Nice mock up.

 

[A&M Retro]

I’ve always felt the original solo album tracklist was all over the place and has never sat right with me in its original order. Just for fun and my own listening pleasure, I had the idea of creating my own version of the album on Spotify (complete with its original cover for the purposes of historical accuracy) with what I think would have been a much better running order stylistically, removing the God-awful All Because Of You completely, which I’ve always felt was a waste of space and one ballad too many.

Side A
1. Lovelines
2. Make Believe It’s Your First Time
3. If I Had You
4. Making Love In The Afternoon
5. Still Crazy After All These Years

Side B
1. Still In Love With You
2. My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
3. Guess I Just Lost My Head
4. If We Try
5. Remember When Lovin’ Took All Night

MUCH better!

 

[newvillefan]

Has anyone else ever picked up on the subtle sarcasm in Richard's liner notes on the "From The Top" box set regarding the track My Body Keeps Changing My Mind?

"From the sublime to the disco, as Karen demonstrates her versatility with this catchy period piece".

The usual phrase would be "from the sublime to the ridiculous"

 

[Harry]

I found it a clever turn of phrase.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Has anyone else ever picked up on the subtle sarcasm in Richard's liner notes on the "From The Top" box set regarding the track My Body Keeps Changing My Mind?

"From the sublime to the disco, as Karen demonstrates her versatility with this catchy period piece".

The usual phrase would be "from the sublime to the ridiculous"

He didn't didn't think she should do disco so his lighthearted sarcasm is understandable.

Ed

 

[Carpe diem]

I find it quite comical that Rod Temperton offered "Rock With You" to Karen initially and she turned him down. I cannot picture Karen singing it especially after the treatment the song was given by Michael Jackson/Quincy Jones for the Off The Wall album. Did Karen realize that her decision helped to alter the course of popular music during that time? The mega-success of Off The Wall led to the chart-busting success of Thriller and the rest is history.