tomswift2002
Well-Known Member
If this was going on vinyl I would probably move “My Body” to the opening track of Side B in order to give it the best sound.
Solo Album and Single Success
- Thread starter newvillefan
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If this was going on vinyl I would probably move “My Body” to the opening track of Side B in order to give it the best sound.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Michael Jackson moved in on those tracks really swiftly because Off The Wall was released in 1979. I'd love to know if Karen remembered hearing the basic demo tracks when she heard his new album. I often wonder if Quincy Jones himself had produced the album, it might have yielded something A&M would have found impossible to turn down.
Carpe diem
Well-Known Member
"I often wonder if Quincy Jones himself had produced the album, it might have yielded something A&M would have found impossible to turn down."
Couldn't agree more, newvillefan!
I believe a studio chemistry between Quincy and Karen could've worked well, and something great might have come of it. Something that was not there, unfortunately, with Phil Ramone.
Couldn't agree more, newvillefan!
I believe a studio chemistry between Quincy and Karen could've worked well, and something great might have come of it. Something that was not there, unfortunately, with Phil Ramone.
GDBY2LV
Well-Known Member
I agree! He was very experienced at finding the right songs, and doubling of vocals. He worked wonders with Lesley Gore in her early years. When he stopped producing her, the hits were few, if any. Her comeback album, Love Me By Name Quincy produced in 1975 was weak though. Even with the Brothers Johnson playing on it. She wasn’t a great vocalist like Karen. It would indeed have been an interesting production. A bit more funk and dance oriented I’m afraid. It actually was the right time for that kind of album though. Even with the negative feedback from Richard about disco, which he did 2 years later on MIA.
GDBY2LV
Well-Known Member
Disco light. Probably my favorite track on the whole album. If they had been cleaver, they would have handed it off to someone else to make an extended 12” dance mix out of the song. They would have been so out of their realm though. I think it might have had more success remixed.
Larry Flick, the Billboard Magazine dance charts critic, begged for someone to extend and remix Lovelines and My Body when Karen’s solo album was finally released. Unfortunately there wasn’t any interest in these songs from 1980 for club use by then.
Larry Flick, the Billboard Magazine dance charts critic, begged for someone to extend and remix Lovelines and My Body when Karen’s solo album was finally released. Unfortunately there wasn’t any interest in these songs from 1980 for club use by then.
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newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I didn’t know that. Is there anything on Billboard online that we could read? I remember reading that when the box set was released, there were reports that My Body Keeps Changing My Mind had been picked up by DJs in gay nightclubs across Europe and was heavily played for some time.
Carpe diem
Well-Known Member
A hypothetical...
If Quincy Jones would've produced Karen's solo work, would Russell Javors have been allowed to write 1/6th of the songs on the album? He had zero noteworthy song-writing success at that point in time. His claim to fame? He was in Billy Joel's band. Noting that Phil Ramone produced BJ's best-selling albums at that time; was Javors selected as a principal songwriter for the project because of whatever relationship he had with Phil/Billy? And seeing how Javors penned the weakest songs on the album (All Because Of You & Still In Love With You); I don't see how this was a good move. And it has Phil Ramone written all over it. IMHO the selection of Phil Ramone as the producer for Karen's album was a disaster.
If Quincy Jones would've produced Karen's solo work, would Russell Javors have been allowed to write 1/6th of the songs on the album? He had zero noteworthy song-writing success at that point in time. His claim to fame? He was in Billy Joel's band. Noting that Phil Ramone produced BJ's best-selling albums at that time; was Javors selected as a principal songwriter for the project because of whatever relationship he had with Phil/Billy? And seeing how Javors penned the weakest songs on the album (All Because Of You & Still In Love With You); I don't see how this was a good move. And it has Phil Ramone written all over it. IMHO the selection of Phil Ramone as the producer for Karen's album was a disaster.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I see your point but I think Phil did the best he could with Karen under the circumstances. She was away from home really for the first time, out of her comfort zone and away from her producer/brother and everything she had ever known in a studio environment. His producing style was a bit too maverick for Karen. Had Quincy produced it, I just get this hunch that he would have chosen much better material - having shortlisted tracks from a much larger number of songwriters as he did for Off The Wall - and added some much needed sparkle to the finished product.
GDBY2LV
Well-Known Member
I’m not 100% sure of the date, but I believe it was the same week or week after Lovelines was released. He mentioned her honey dripped vocals, or something to that extent, and was excited that it had finally been released. He wanted some dj out there in club land to remix those cuts. Not sure where you could find that on line. It was Larry Flick though, the club and dance charts reviewer for Billboard Magazine. It would be nice to read his exact words again.
Carpe diem
Well-Known Member
Yes newvillefan, no problem with Phil's personal relationship with Karen. In all the documentaries about the duo with Phil interviewed, he always speaks very highly and compassionately about Karen. He even invited her to live in his home. Phil was probably a very nice and decent man. But a compete mismatch professionally. I believe you are so right-on about Quincy finding better songwriters for her because of his musicality. Phil I regard as more of a George Martin type engineer in the studio and Karen needed strong guidance in selecting quality material (because this was all new to her).
Murray
Well-Known Member
If I can find any fault with Phil as producer, it was that he allowed the project to drag on for far too long. If the album had been completed before Richard was ready to get back to work, and before disco was on it's deathbed, I think that it would have had a far better chance of being green-lighted for release. As it was, by the time Herb and Jerry got the finished product, they were faced with a dilemma - do they release Karen's solo, with the risk that it could damage the Carpenters brand, OR do they get behind a new Carpenters album, which they believed had a better chance of success? We all know that they made the safe choice.
Quincy Jones, on the other hand, worked much faster. The Off the Wall album was recorded in six months, and was in stores only two months later. But that Quincy Jones' magic sound didn't come cheap. We think that Karen's album was expensive for the time, but Off the Wall cost $750,000 to produce!
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
“To completely understand the love and adventure of Karen's solo project, people should know that we made a conscious decision to experiment with music and styles that were not in the Carpenters' albums”.
Karen Carpenter: Karen Carpenter Solo Album
One of the inherent problems with the way the project was approached is that Phil saw it as an experiment. Avant-garde producers tend to sit back, let the artist relax and see what unfolds. Karen wasn’t used to that. She was disciplined, had a lot of nervous energy and if the producer isn’t harnessing that and maintaining focus, then the vision for a project like this can be lost. So I think you’re absolutely right that he let this go way over timescale (and budget). Karen was flying back and forth to NYC and recording at all hours of the night. Ok, so she liked recording late into the evening as we know, but the expense of doing so - not least studio costs and band wages - soon mounts up. Beyond the initial advance from A&M, this was all on her own dime and in that respect I think Phil should have known better. I get the sense there was never any set completion date or urgency on the project at any time. Quincy Jones would have set a budget, a deadline and absolutely kicked ass to make sure it happened and was delivered on time. In all the material I’ve ever read on the subject, I’ve never once seen anything that said there was a set date for the album to be delivered to the label.
Quincy Jones is an amazing artist and a great producer, but I can't think of anyone less compatible with his style than Karen. If anything, he might have taken the R&B direction that Karen and Phil Ramone were pursuing and doubled-down on it, and the results may not have meshed with her vocal style. Just listen to any Michael Jackson ballad and imagine Karen singing it, and you may hear what I'm talking about in your mind's ear.
It's kind of like when Q produced Paul McCartney and MJ on his song "The Girl Is Mine." It was arguably the blandest song on Thriller (and got noted as such in the reviews). I think it was because Paul McCartney is not an R&B singer, he's a white rock'n'roll singer. They tried to shoehorn MJ's R&B style into Paul's style and it just didn't work.
Of course (to quote Dennis Miller) "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
It's kind of like when Q produced Paul McCartney and MJ on his song "The Girl Is Mine." It was arguably the blandest song on Thriller (and got noted as such in the reviews). I think it was because Paul McCartney is not an R&B singer, he's a white rock'n'roll singer. They tried to shoehorn MJ's R&B style into Paul's style and it just didn't work.
Of course (to quote Dennis Miller) "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
Chris
Well-Known Member
Thought I'd share this experience about someone hearing KC's solo work for the first time. My 14 year old niece who is familiar with the Carpenters and enjoys many genres of music, had not heard the solo album before. We were in the car the other day and "Guess I Just Lost My Head" happened to come on in my random music app. She asked "What IS this? I love it!" I told her about the solo album and then played more songs from it. Her favorites were "Guess I Just Lost.." "If We Try", and "Still Crazy After All These Years". She loved the arrangements, guitar, and bluesy style on the tracks as well as Karen's performance. She really surprised me when she said some of the material reminded her of "Rock With You" from Michael Jackson, which I could hardly believe she picked up on and I explained the connection with Rod Temperton and told her how Karen was offered an early version of the song. Needless to say it made me happy that she was so enthusiastic about Karen's solo work and that she added them to her own playlist.
It's great to see young people enjoying the Carpenters and classics.. as you all know it's kind of rare, but it does happen. When someone else really likes music you are so familiar with, it sort of helps you experience the music with fresh ears. It increased my own appreciation for the solo work. Have you all experienced that? Hearing something with someone else and you get to hear it in a new, fresh way somehow.
It's great to see young people enjoying the Carpenters and classics.. as you all know it's kind of rare, but it does happen. When someone else really likes music you are so familiar with, it sort of helps you experience the music with fresh ears. It increased my own appreciation for the solo work. Have you all experienced that? Hearing something with someone else and you get to hear it in a new, fresh way somehow.
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Vinylalbumcovers
Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
I think the problem is that the song just isn't that good. It's pretty draggy and the lyric is really weak. It succeeded at radio because Paul & MJ were on it, not because of the song itself. Of all the songs on "Thriller", it's the one we hear least. Heck, I hear "Baby Be Mine" more than I hear "The Girl is Mine". They later collaborated on an actual R&B-ish tune - "Say, Say, Say" that is far better, though still not really my thing.
Fun fact: Even the Toto guys who played on the track laughed at it when they first heard it. "The doggone girl is mine". Man, that's awful.
Quincy Jones is, in my opinion, the greatest producer ever to sit behind a board. He certainly could have handled the urbane pop/R&B thing she spent most of the album doing with absolutely no problem at all. He'd already done it with James Ingram & Patti Austin on both "Baby Come to Me" and "How Do You Keep the Music Playing?". Contrary to belief, Michael Jackson is far from the only artist Quincy produced. Karen's stuff would have been a walk in the park on a Sunday afternoon for him. He might have jettisoned those awful Javors tunes and put in better songs. A couple of those outtakes would have been far better. Richard didn't like them and, for once, I agree with him.
Ed
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Love this story Chris! It reminds me of a similar experience I had when I was 18. My aunt, who was around 60 at the time, was visiting with us and it was a beautiful summer's day. At the time, the album hadn't yet been released but Lovelines had and I was playing Remember When Lovin' Took All Night at a good volume with the windows open. She came into the room and said "listen to that, how beautiful is that music?!". She would have known who Karen Carpenter was but for some reason didn't ask if it was her. A nice memory that stuck with me for the next three decades.
Another Son
Well-Known Member
I agree that the lyrics of ‘The Girl Is Mine’ aren’t very good but there are a whole lot of reasons why it was a hit. It’s light and breezy, there’s the fun thought of two big stars ‘ribbing’ each other in good humour, it’s got a sort of funky slow-groove feel, I think it had a light-hearted, sunny video that was screened a lot at the time and that expressed the personality of the stars, as well as emphasising the pretend competition between them for the girl, (couldn’t find it on YouTube to remind myself), it came with the momentum of the other huge hits from that massive album, it got a lot of radio airplay and the record company probably spent a lot of money on promoting it... all the things the KC album didn’t get. Also, (it’s hard to imagine now), but at the time it was a big deal for a soul music star and a member of rock royalty to record together - just the surprise or shock of that alone was enough to jolt you into sitting up and taking notice, and then getting behind them. ‘The Girl is Mine’ does have a nice sound, too - it’s pleasant and nothing-too-much-either-way to listen to. It’s actually a bit like some of The Jacksons’ non-single stuff from 1976, 1977 and 1978, so their fans would have been very familiar with that sound, too. I’ve heard this song millions of times but don’t think I’ve ever listened closely to the lyrics, even though I’m a lyrics person, so maybe the lyrics weren’t really that important in it becoming a hit. It’s just an example of a lot of the right things coming together at the right time.
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goodjeans
Well-Known Member
I remember reading this at the time. Paraphrasing..".as if to the genre born...Karen...hey guys, how about a remix" ?
CraigGA
Well-Known Member
I have had friends who had a very positive reaction to Guess I Just Lost My Head, as well. The common comment is something like those bluesy songs fit her well and probably would have been well liked if she had recorded more of this type. I have always agreed that outside of the Carpenters sound, this is one of the best. Trying to make a sound that was not a Carpenters copy must have been difficult, for she was that voice. The Rod Temperton treatment and this light blues/smooth jazz sound was one of the few that suited her that was not yet released from Carpenters' material. We did not know of Ordinary Fool in 1980, but this is still different. I agree about the Javors tunes, they are my least favorite. Karen could sing them, but I just did not like them. But, Guess I Just Lost My Head is one of my most played in iTunes.
Portlander
Well-Known Member
The more I listen to "Making Love in the Afternoon" the more I like it and feel that it had hit potential. It has that early 80's vibe with catchy lyrics and an uptempo beat. Am curious to know how the whole Peter Cetera union happened if anyone can share some details. Whose idea was it, did Phil Ramone arrange it, did Karen and Peter lay out the vocal tracks together, were there any photos of the event, did they go out to lunch or dinner together?
Also wonder if Karen and Richard ever meet the band members of Chicago during their years of touring. Both acts were turning out hit after hit during the 70's and you'd think their paths would have crossed at some point. Am just surprised there was no fanfare or media coverage on two of the biggest singers of the era recording a song together in a New York studio.
Also wonder if Karen and Richard ever meet the band members of Chicago during their years of touring. Both acts were turning out hit after hit during the 70's and you'd think their paths would have crossed at some point. Am just surprised there was no fanfare or media coverage on two of the biggest singers of the era recording a song together in a New York studio.
Vinylalbumcovers
Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
Karen really wasn't that big of a deal at that point commercially. By 1976, the well had run dry on the hits for the most part. Chicago wasn't doing very well either by this point. Terry Kath had died and the band was flailing around trying to figure out what to do. I doubt anyone would have been checking that hard for either entity in 1979/1980.
Ed
'The Girl is Mine' got traction because it put two big stars together (see also Paul McCartney's pairing with Stevie Wonder on the awful but massive 'Ebony and Ivory' earlier in the same year) and was a first single from a new album. Michael Jackson was on a hot streak at the time, so could put out a weaker song like this without there being serious commerical repercussions.
It's a pretty vapid song and a bizarre choice to open the Thriller campaign, as it's the weakest song on there. The lyrics are almost (but not quite) 'so bad it's good' and the production is listless. In itself, it certainly doesn't make a good case for Quincy Jones being a good producer.
I don't think putting McCartney and Jackson together was a good match in any case - the 'Say Say Say' single was OK, but the McCartney-penned 'Girlfriend' on Off the Wall was an absolute stinker.
Vinylalbumcovers
Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
While I obviously agree that the song is awful, I think the production is fine for the song. Quincy could only do so much with it. He had little to work with and if you've heard the demo with just MJ, it's pretty obvious:
All of that said, they'd be a fool to turn it down because of MJ & Paul. That's precisely why they rolled with it.
Ed
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