Karen's Solo album

[newvillefan]

Didn't they also give Karen almost like a 2nd chance to tweek the album remixing it with Quincy Jones who thought it was fabulous before getting it a final rejection?

I don't think Karen was even present for this. This was Phil Ramone who set up the meeting between Quincy Jones and A&M brass. Quincy tried to talk them up with a remix of the whole album, at his own home, saying how fabulous it sounded.

The reply that came back from this second listen was that the record as it stood sounded 'the wrong way forward'.

Thing is, who would like to hear what they did to it in the remix? Why on earth didn't they listen to Quincy Jones? He was one of the hottest producers at the time, more so than Phil Ramone.

 

[goodjeans]

I wanna hear it. I also want to know who knows about the 12" remix of "My Body..." or is it just a rumor. I also now want a time machine even though I hate playing the game 'what if'...

an aside:
I am so glad that I found this site. Harry, and so many others on the same team discussing and feeding information on the common denominator that is 'CARPENTERS'. Well spoken (um, well typed I mean), informative, polite intellectuals. What a great site. Have a great week everyone.

 

[Harry]

I am so glad that I found this site. Harry, and so many others on the same team discussing and feeding information on the common denominator that is 'CARPENTERS'. Well spoken (um, well typed I mean), informative, polite intellectuals. What a great site. Have a great week everyone.

A lot of us remember what it was like to feel like you were the only fan in the world. Having "connections" here with other mostly like-minded individuals is a treat we couldn't have dreamed of in those old "lonely" days.

Harry

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I don't get it. Richard's arranging style has been around for quite some time. If anyone originated it, it would have been Gene Puerling. It's not uniquely Richard's so he shouldn't have gotten upset with Karen for using it. Rod Temperton is an amazing vocal arranger. He arranges that same way for most of what he does. The stuff he did with Michael Jackson et all proves that. To say that Rod took that style, IMHO, is pretty silly. Arranging tightly is not just the domain of Richard Carpenter...

Ed

 

[mr J.]

Why is there so much interest in Karen's solo album?It seems the album has an affinity for controversy.The bottom line is...the album came out 12 years ago ,we've all heard it.it was a commercial failure.It's out-of-print.And basically,it was a horrible album.
Richard chose the four best tracks,remixed them beautifully,and included them on "Lovelines"."Lovelines",then,gives us a sampling of the solo work,and that's all we really need.Richard's exquisite renovation of "If I Had You" and "Lovelines" dramatically improved the quality of those tracks as well.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Why is there so much interest in Karen's solo album?It seems the album has an affinity for controversy.The bottom line is...the album came out 12 years ago ,we've all heard it.it was a commercial failure.It's out-of-print.And basically,it was a horrible album.
Richard chose the four best tracks,remixed them beautifully,and included them on "Lovelines"."Lovelines",then,gives us a sampling of the solo work,and that's all we really need.Richard's exquisite renovation of "If I Had You" and "Lovelines" dramatically improved the quality of those tracks as well.

Mr J, Since this is a forum and we are allowed express how we feel, it's quite appropriate for fans to want to express how we feel emotionally about Karen's solo album. If someone wants to let her solo album collect dust and never play it so be it that is ones choice. Evidence from your posting there are some fans that truly love Karen's voice and the music not only she and Richard made but also what she and Phil made as well. No it may not have been a commercial hit however to the fans it's an emotional bond between Karen and the listener (might I add the same bond when we hear her on a Carpenters album) and that bond becomes even stronger because it was Karen's solo album, it was all about her. How can someone who loves her voice (like me) consider that there would be no interest in what she created on her own? The solo album had much more to it than just the songs that appear between the cover, it was more about Karen becoming a woman and identifying with who she was as an artist. It would be silly to think there would be no interest in what she created as a solo artist, how she felt about the project and just how important it was to her that she accomplished this on her own. It's been noted over and over how proud she felt of this whole project. It's great that Richard extracted the tracks he felt worthy enough to appear on Lovelines, however it's even greater praise that the album was finally released the way Karen intended it to be.

I might also refer to a previous post from Mr J
http://www.amcorner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8556&highlight=

Chris-Who said "As Time Goes By" is such an important album?The sales figures are probably under 100,000.(way under!).Most of the material is less than stellar.The prime track is obviously the Jazz medley with Ella,and that was already available on the boxed set."Without A Song" was already available on "Interpretations".Three other cuts were included on GOLD,which was released a few months prior to "As Time Goes By".Several tracks are actually just rerecordings or medleys of existing songs.Probably the most dissapointing and least anticipated Carpenters album ever.

http://www.amcorner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7384&highlight=

There is a Carpenters "Buried Treasures" album.It's called "As Time Goes By"(released in 2004),and it's an extremely forgettable album."As Time Goes By" is clear evidence that there wasn't anything worthwhile left in the vaults

http://www.amcorner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3810&highlight=

A single from "As Time Goes By"?(I'm almost laughing).To those that are unaware,"As Time Goes By" is basically a duet standards album with Ella Fitzgerald,Perry Como,and Nelson Riddle.Nothing Top 40 here,nothing even close to Top 40.

http://www.amcorner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3760&highlight=

ANDREW,you're right-Richard's "Time" CD does sound terrible.In fact,almost every song is terrible!The duet with Dusty Springfield is the only noteworthy item on that album."Time" also has the distinction of being one of the shortest-lived albums in A&M history-it was only in print for 4 years!

http://www.amcorner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=23368&highlight=#23368

Liberation and freedom?If you listen to Karen's solo album very carefully,you can hear the sound of a lonely,love-starved woman who's dying to have a man make love to her.The lyrics in most of those songs depict a woman who's desperate, insecure, and sexually unfulfilled.There's nothing liberating about that.To the contrary,it makes Karen sound pathetic.And I can absolutely understand why Richard and A&M were so opposed to that album being released.

Again we all have the right to express how we feel about what we like and dislike but this board is basically for fans that love both the music of Richard and Karen and also Karen work as a solo artist. To say that songs from Time, Karen's solo album and As Time Goes By were just not worthwhile to release, terrible and a love starved woman, pathetic and horrible....is just pretty cruel to say the least. It's a pretty simple reason why there is so much interest in Karen's solo album..it's because we loved her as an artist and believed she had the voice of an angel, I truly believe to this day that my ears will never hear another voice as that of Karen. Her solo material may not have been a commercial hit but the album serves no lesser of interest because of that.

 

[CraigGA]

Every album has some songs that are stronger than others, even the solo project. I enjoy Karen's voice and was glad that from Horizon forward, the focus was on the delivery of Karen's voice (no solos from Richard). I like the production of I Can Dream, Can't I on Horizon, and as a fan, I would have accepted other avenues by other (guest) producers on forthcoming Carpenters projects, again with the focus on Karen. The Carpenters offered fans different avenues of musical styles with standards, classical, jazz and country mixed in their selections that sparked my interest into the different styles of music, not just the "current billboard pop" sound of the time. Their projects issued had more diversity of style than the singles, so most radio listeners did not know the depth of their musical style or the extent of their talent. They made bold moves, as with Passage, and celebrated different styles of music, as we saw with the Music, Music, Music television special. Their mutual respect for each other is not only evident from listening to their music, but also from what we now know that has been discussed here. The gift to us is that Karen's heart and soul can be heard through her unique contralto voice and Richard's platform caresses her delivery. Karen and Richard are great artists individually and are a knockout team to which I think we all agree. Their career was successful, loved and coveted by many and their influence on others is still moving forward. Their respect and love for each other is a testament that virtues and values can be kept in a musical career. I am thankful for every release, for I cannot get enough of the Carpenters. Had Karen lived longer, both she and Richard would have no doubt had the continued ebb and flow of a long term lifetime career.

 

[Harry]

Way to research, Chris!

The whole field of music is quite a different experience for each of us. Some of us will revel in and cherish songs and albums whether or not they were "hits".

There are many reasons why some songs or albums never become chart hits. There's lack of promotion, unwillingness to "take a chance" on the part of radio programmers, timing, all sorts of things can contribute to some very good music relegated to being non-hits.

As I've stated numerous times, I don't think that there was any huge hit material in Karen's solo album - but that doesn't mean I can't listen to it and enjoy it for what it is: a rare chance to hear Karen's lovely singing voice in a setting away from "Carpenters."

There will likely always be interest in discussion of the solo album, as it represents a curiosity in the Carpenters careers. And it seems to be the smallest of releases that get the most discussion on online forums. The movies that haven't been released - the albums that went nowhere - the odd singles and b-sides that were rare;y heard.

So, no matter where you might find discussion on Carpenters, you'll likely find a thread about their solo albums (though for the life of me I can't recall a dedicated thread to PIANIST, ARRANGER, COMPOSER, CONDUCTOR!).

"Controversy" is another staple of online forums. You won't find much discussion on things that everyone agrees on. It's the stuff that separates people into multiple camps that spurs the conversation. So there will be few threads on great albums like CLOSE TO YOU or A SONG FOR YOU, but bring up PASSAGE or VOICE OF THE HEART and you get quite a discussion on both sides.

As Chris stated, this forum is for all who would like to discuss the music and legacy of the Carpenters, and as long as we're respectful of everyone else's opinions, then we're doing OK.

Harry

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Why is there so much interest in Karen's solo album?It seems the album has an affinity for controversy.The bottom line is...the album came out 12 years ago ,we've all heard it.it was a commercial failure.It's out-of-print.And basically,it was a horrible album.

I disagree. "Karen Carpenter" isn't a great album but it's hardly a disaster. The Rod Temperton tunes are very nice and "Guess I Just Lost My Head" is pretty cool. I also feel that the definitive version of "Make Believe It's Your First Time" is on this album. Heck, I even like "My Body..." because of the vocal arrangement. However, I do not like the rockier stuff because Karen just isn't convincing singing it.

Richard chose the four best tracks,remixed them beautifully,and included them on "Lovelines"."Lovelines",then,gives us a sampling of the solo work,and that's all we really need.Richard's exquisite renovation of "If I Had You" and "Lovelines" dramatically improved the quality of those tracks as well.

I'm kinda with you here. I prefer the length of Richard's "If I Have You". I like that it ends with the acapella "If I Had You Back In My Life". The sound of Phil's is more appealing to my ears, though. Richard's mixes of her solo material tend to de-emphasize the bass and push Karen's leads too far forward. That's kind of my beef with "Lovelines". Of course, I want to hear her sing but I also want to hear the band. Personal preferences, really...

Ed

 

[Harry]

I also feel that the definitive version of "Make Believe It's Your First Time" is on this album.

Here, here!

The solo album contains the "goosebump" version!

Harry

 

[newvillefan]

Richard's mixes of her solo material tend to de-emphasize the bass and push Karen's leads too far forward. That's kind of my beef with "Lovelines". Of course, I want to hear her sing but I also want to hear the band. Personal preferences, really...

Once you've heard Richard's remixes of those two songs, I think it kind of spoils you because he did such a fantastic job with them. Phil's remixes are very dry and there's little reverb used on the instruments or Karen's vocal. I think that's all the more noticeable because Richard used reverb a lot.

I think it's also true that Karen's vocal is pushed down in the mix on the original versions. Particularly on Lovelines, at the end of the choruses ('cos lovelines never fade'), the backing vocals actually drown out Karen's lead.

 

[goodjeans]

We will never know of the commercial success of Karen's solo album, as it was not released as scheduled. We do have the sales figures when it was released more than a decade and a half after it was recorded. Some of the more trendy tracks were intended, I believe, as just that. Short shelf life on some of the tracks, sure! I still like 'em. Seeing Karen on Olivia's special was a breath of fresh air. Albeit a short visit on the program, Karen looked beautiful, hip and happy. Gone was the high neck prom gown and bangs that the average listener (not any of us) still may have envisioned of her and it was time to let go of that ridiculous and incorrect image.
I love what Richard did with "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind" and when it was available on the boxed set, it sounded beautiful, full and rich. karen's version, from 1979-80 sounds pretty much what many other recordings sounded like at that time. I have always loved Richard's production and arrangement skills; he is unmatched IMHO. I also LOVED many of the tracks on 'Time', 'Scott Grimes'. 'Akiko' and 'Veronique' because it had that marvelous SOUND all over it.
I have said before that I would like to rewrite the past, if only to be right there upon the release of her solo album in 1980. I was one of many who were terribly dissapointed upon hearing the brief statement that the album would not be released when we had expected. A bomb, perhaps. A hit, I think so. The sheer excitement for us and surprise to the ones out of the Carpenters loop would have garnered at least some positive attention. And thinking about what happened a few short years later, I honestly don't think that releasing the album when originally intended would have hurt.
I do not hear a sex starved woman on the tracks either. I may be so prejudiced about my extreme dedication and appreciation of Karen that it may be there and I just don't hear it. I also do not hear desparation. I do hear the attempt of a woman, well travelled but sheltered, stretching and trying to grow. I love it. Most of us at least attempt that process in our lives, we just don't have our attempts recorded on vinyl as we do grow and try new things. (Thankfully for me, and , um, ...yikes).
And finally, if anyone is still awake, it may have been one of those, 'guess you had to be there' things, but the impending release of solo product from Karen was beyond exciting. I think that's what the record industry is all about?? If, in hindsight, people don't get that, it is understandable. I sure do.

 

[Mark-T]

I love, love, love the solo album- but I agree Richard's mixes do put Karen's vocal up and front. (And I agree with Harry. It has the definitive version of MBIYFT) And I think her vocals belong there! I have always said Karen could sing anything and I would buy it. It's the Voice. Its the overdubs of her voice, that and the playfulness and seriousness of her voice, that initially and still grabs me. The arrangements and production are important, but they are secondary to why I have loved the Carps since my first hearing in 1970. I would have liked the solo album to come out at the time it was scheduled just so I could get my hands on those great pics of Karen in a 12" x 12" format!

 

[mr J.]

Chris-I can see that you are a staunch Karen fan;I like Karen very much,also.But,I'm looking at this situation from a neutral,unbiased point of view.Anyone who's a die-hard fan is going to love the solo album no matter how bad it is.Karen's album had a few interesting tracks and good vocals(particularly "If We Try"),but it was not a good album.Karen could have made a great solo album,and unfortunately,she didn't.I think the basic problem is that Karen and Phil were trying to duplicate the type of albums that Cher and Olivia Newton-John were making at that time.(actually,"My Body keeps Changing My Mind" sounds like a clone of Cher's"Take Me Home").Karen did explore different,mature and sensual sounds on her albums with Richard;Have you ever noticed how sexy she sounds on "B'wana She No Home"?It's also probably the jazziest track they ever recorded,and it's a GOOD track.The solo album (generally) makes her sound cheap,insecure and lonely.And,that's not how I want to remember her.Karen didn't "become a Woman" with the solo album,either.She was absolutely majestic on much earlier releases.("Horizon" is a good example")

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Looks like you guys are going to need to agree to disagree on this one!

 

[Mark-T]

"Horizon" IS their masterpiece, IMHO.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I feel a thread coming on...

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

I agree with Harry. It has the definitive version of MBIYFT

I'm gonna stick my neck out here (as I have done on another C's forum) and say that I don't like this version at all. Given her excellent sense of timing as a drummer, I think Karen is way out of time with the piano. Towards the end she seems to be racing ahead of it, making her vocal out of sync with the track at several points. I hear it and it makes me want to say 'slow down!!', she seems to be in a hurry to get to the end.

It's not the most captivating song in the world, and Richard's version from VOTH goes some way to rescuing it, but it's one I always skip over on the ipod. It's no surprise to me that it bombed as a single (in the UK, VOTH as an album made #6 on the chart).

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I agree that Richard's "Make Believe..." doesn't work as a single. In my opinion, it doesn't work at all. The added bridge adds nothing to the flow of the song. I also don't much care for the O.K. Chorale. I'll have to listen to Karen's version to pick up on what you're saying, Stephen. I never noticed it before.

Ed

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Thing is, who would like to hear what they did to it in the remix? Why on earth didn't they listen to Quincy Jones? He was one of the hottest producers at the time, more so than Phil Ramone.

Let's not forget the tight connection between Quincy Jones and Rod Temperton, the songwriter on two tracks and vocal arranger on all of 'em. Likely, they may have taken Jones' opinion with a grain of salt in that situation.

Ed

 

[goodjeans]

According to A&M vault records, there are twelve unreleased songs total. “Last One Singin’ The Blues” was included as a bonus track on the ‘96 release of Karen Carpenter, and (other than the nine available here) only two others are unaccounted for, “Basket Case” and “Church Choir (Wild)”. It is unclear at this time whether the latter two are complete songs or not. If anyone is in possession of these, or have any further information about them, please get in touch with me!

I found this on the internet and also remember these two song titles having been listed from a printed newsletter after the Fan Club newsletters. Does anyone have more information about either of these tracks; if they are even real?

 

[1979lee]

I found this on the internet and also remember these two song titles having been listed from a printed newsletter after the Fan Club newsletters. Does anyone have more information about either of these tracks; if they
are even real?[/quote]



Ive heard the same thing over the years, but i dont know anymore than you do, those 2 songs are also on that List of carpenters songs leaked a few years back, richard was pissed that it got out, ask yuko ogura about it , i got the list from her a few years back
http://carpenters4u.net/eg/

 

[goodjeans]

...

those 2 songs are also on that List of carpenters songs leaked a few years back, richard was pissed that it got out, ask yuko ogura about it , i got the list from her a few years back...

Hmmm. If Richard was pissed, then the two tracks are probably pretty much completed? I want to hear them.

 

[newvillefan]

I think Richard was more annoyed that the list got out, rather than for the sake of one or two particular tracks.

Thing is, why would he be annoyed? What difference does it make to see what's in the vaults? It's not like we've got bootlegs of many of those tracks anyway, to hawk around the internet.

 

[Gordo]

Thing is, why would he be annoyed? What difference does it make to see what's in the vaults? It's not like we've got bootlegs of many of those tracks anyway, to hawk around the internet.

At first, I wondered that myself. Then it occured to me that if someone published a list of all the projects I'd failed to complete for one reason or another, I'd be pretty upset!