• Don't forget to let us know which streaming services you use regularly. Vote in our poll here.
  • The new Carpenters recording with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra is now available. Use this link to order, and help us out at the same time. Thank you!

Official Review [Album]: "AS TIME GOES BY" (UICY-1060)

HOW WOULD YOU RATE THIS ALBUM?

  • ***** (BEST)

    Votes: 8 11.4%
  • ****

    Votes: 29 41.4%
  • ***

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • **

    Votes: 5 7.1%
  • *

    Votes: 2 2.9%

  • Total voters
    70

Chris May

Resident 'Carpenterologist'
Thread Starter
Staff member
Moderator
This is correct. Not making excuses, but in 2004, when the US version finally came out, Universal was in the midst of all sorts of restructuring and this "re-release" sort of fell through the cracks. Anyone who bought the USA version will note that it had a hype sticker that really promoted a new lower price:
View attachment 2895
That is indeed a crime. When the album came out, I tried to interest the program director of our AM nostalgia station to play it, but he felt that his audience didn't really care for Beatles tunes. He DID play the Karen/Ella medley. He also enjoyed "California Dreamin'" until Karen broke out with the drums. Too rough for his audience!
Here's a little look in to the session from As Time Goes By; Richard, bassist Joe Osborn and Richard's long-time copyist, the late Ron Gorrow working down some of the studio magic (password: nowhere2018). Also included is the brief explanation of the master transfer on California Dreamin':

 

newvillefan

I Know My First Name Is Stephen
It probably took him an hour tops to record those vocals himself and just be done with them rather than go through the trouble of finding a male vocalist, coaching through the parts, doing take after take until the right one was achieved, etc. With that being a shaky time for UMe, especially, it seems like this "quick and dirty" approach was the only way the tracks were going to be releasable.
The lead vocal he did for You're Just In Love was not done for As Time Goes By. It was recorded in 1980 at the end of the recording sessions for the TV special.
 

newvillefan

I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Here's a little look in to the session from As Time Goes By; Richard, bassist Joe Osborn and Richard's long-time copyist, the late Ron Gorrow working down some of the studio magic (password: nowhere2018). Also included is the brief explanation of the master transfer on California Dreamin'
Love love love this Chris - thank you for posting it again. What a treat!
 

leadmister

Well-Known Member
The lead vocal he did for You're Just In Love was not done for As Time Goes By. It was recorded in 1980 at the end of the recording sessions for the TV special.
Ah OK. I didn't know that. That kinda changes my outlook on it, but it's all water under the bridge at this point, as Harry said.
 

GaryAlan

Well-Known Member
Well, color me confused.
I always believed JD had asked for ridiculous sum of money to be included
in the release of You're Just In Love, and thus (because of that circumstance)
Richard recorded his vocals for that song, for release of ATGB.
How did I miss this tidbit ? Where is that documented that he recorded lead vocals
in 1980 after recording the TV Special--the Liner Notes do not mention that.
Now, the Liner Notes do mention that circumstance for the song
Without A Song ( "ref vocals of K&R replacing Ella & John, cut May 13,1980").
 

ars nova

Active Member
there are people that will jump at any opportunity to berate Richard. a&m chose not to release Karen's album. karen chose to continue self-destructive behavior that lead to her demise. every family has screwed-up dynamics, every business relationship has conflicts. Richard has put in a hell of a lot of time Karen's image wrapped in plastic. I am sure there a great financial inducements and probably personal facets, of which, thankfully, we will never know. those are his choices. I get really steamed that some will fault him at every turning. he did not kill karen; it seems that he tried, against her will, to protect her to the end. get off the guy's back.
 

Harry

Charter A&M Corner Member
Staff member
Moderator
Where is that documented that he recorded lead vocals
in 1980 after recording the TV Special--the Liner Notes do not mention that.
Now, the Liner Notes do mention that circumstance for the song
Without A Song ( "ref vocals of K&R replacing Ella & John, cut May 13,1980").
It's implied in the first line under "You're Just In Love", where he says:

Richard Carpenter said:
Again, from MUSIC, MUSIC, MUSIC and again with me singing John's part.
That, to me, says that it's the same situation from earlier in the liner notes.
 

newvillefan

I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I always believed JD had asked for ridiculous sum of money to be included
in the release of You're Just In Love, and thus (because of that circumstance)
Richard recorded his vocals for that song, for release of ATGB.
How did I miss this tidbit ? Where is that documented that he recorded lead vocals
in 1980 after recording the TV Special--the Liner Notes do not mention that.
Now, the Liner Notes do mention that circumstance for the song
Without A Song ( "ref vocals of K&R replacing Ella & John, cut May 13,1980").
That, to me, says that it's the same situation from earlier in the liner notes.
Following Harry's earlier post, here is the full text from the official site for both songs, side by side. To my ears it's always been clear that this was a vocal from 1980 - Richard's voice sounded completely different by 1999, when he was preparing tracks for As Time Goes By.

Without A Song

Our fifth ABC television special, "Music, Music, Music", was videotaped on March 7, 8, and 9 of 1980 and aired on May 16. Guests included Ella Fitzgerald and John Davidson, with the Nelson Riddle Orchestra. The show opened with this 1929 standard and featured Karen, Ella, John and me. As stereophonic sound in television was still a few years away, all of the music for our specials was mixed in monaural. We were so fond of the music from this show that after videotaping was wrapped and, on our dime, Karen and I decided to remix it all in stereo and have a couple of reference disks cut for our own collections. As we were about to embark on this project, Karen thought it would be fun to sing Ella's part on Without A Song and for me to sing John's. The "refs" were cut on May 13, 1980 and up until work began on this CD, had never been heard by anyone else other than those involved.

You're Just In Love

Again, from "Music, Music, Music", and again with my singing John Davidson's part.
This Irving Berlin song is from the musical Call Me Madam and was originally a hit for Perry Como and the Fontane Sisters in late 1950. Our version featured a bit of ballroom dancing in it, hence the style of instrumental break employed. The steel guitar intro may sound familiar to some listeners; I liked the figure, never thought this track would be in release, and subsequently used it in our 1981 recording Those Good Old Dreams. I imagine it's all right to steal from yourself!

As Time Goes By - Album Notes

I'm guessing that, because of John Davidson's royalty demands in the run up to the album's release, Richard decided it would be fun to dust off the KC/RC vocals that were never meant to see the light of day, save a chunk of money and allow the tracks to be heard at the same time. Great decision on his part and what a stroke of luck that he and Karen had decided to go to all that extra effort back in 1980 :)

P.S. The same sessions with Karen produced his own replacement vocal on You'll Never Know.
 
Last edited:

ars nova

Active Member
Following Harry's earlier post, here is the full text from the official site (with the text from Without A Song set alongside the comments from You're Just In Love). It's very clear to me this was a vocal from 1980 - Richard's voice sounded completely different by 1999, when he was preparing tracks for As Time Goes By.

Without A Song

Our fifth ABC television special, "Music, Music, Music", was videotaped on March 7, 8, and 9 of 1980 and aired on May 16. Guests included Ella Fitzgerald and John Davidson, with the Nelson Riddle Orchestra. The show opened with this 1929 standard and featured Karen, Ella, John and me. As stereophonic sound in television was still a few years away, all of the music for our specials was mixed in monaural. We were so fond of the music from this show that after videotaping was wrapped and, on our dime, Karen and I decided to remix it all in stereo and have a couple of reference disks cut for our own collections. As we were about to embark on this project, Karen thought it would be fun to sing Ella's part on Without A Song and for me to sing John's. The "refs" were cut on May 13, 1980 and up until work began on this CD, had never been heard by anyone else other than those involved.

You're Just In Love

Again, from "Music, Music, Music", and again with my singing John Davidson's part.
This Irving Berlin song is from the musical Call Me Madam and was originally a hit for Perry Como and the Fontane Sisters in late 1950. Our version featured a bit of ballroom dancing in it, hence the style of instrumental break employed. The steel guitar intro may sound familiar to some listeners; I liked the figure, never thought this track would be in release, and subsequently used it in our 1981 recording Those Good Old Dreams. I imagine it's all right to steal from yourself!

As Time Goes By - Album Notes

I'm guessing that, because of John Davidson's royalty demands in the run up to the album's release, Richard decided it would be fun to dust off the KC/RC vocals that were never meant to see the light of day, save a chunk of money and allow the tracks to be heard at the same time. Great decision on his part and what a stroke of luck that he and Karen had decided to do this in 1980 :)

do we know with certainty that Davidson was the problem? I would have welcomed the COMIN' THROUGH THE RYE-GOOD VIBRATIONS medley as well, but I've never read information concerning it. was there a licensing-royalty concern?
 

newvillefan

I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Here's a little look in to the session from As Time Goes By; Richard, bassist Joe Osborn and Richard's long-time copyist, the late Ron Gorrow working down some of the studio magic
@Chris May can I ask where this footage was filmed? In documentaries I've seen, Richard's home studio looks similar to this but I'm not sure if it's there or a different recording studio?

I have to say, watching the counter on the screen, if there are hours of this stuff I'd sit and watch every second of it obsessively. Amazing footage! Great to see them work their way through the bass parts for that track.
 
Last edited:

newvillefan

I Know My First Name Is Stephen
do we know with certainty that Davidson was the problem?
I've read that in several places that this was the case, I'll try and look up the source articles. I also read that royalties were also the reason that the Karen/Ella Medley was held back for release on From The Top, due to the prolonged negotiations with Ella's estate.
 

Chris May

Resident 'Carpenterologist'
Thread Starter
Staff member
Moderator
@Chris May can I ask where this footage was filmed? In documentaries I've seen, Richard's home studio looks similar to this but I'm not sure if it's there or a different recording studio?
This was recorded at Capitol Records, Studio C. The original analog masters for most of this stuff were transferred over to 1" digital tape for additional overdubbing and remix. And yes, there are several hours worth of footage. Joe Osborn was testing out the Lakland signature Joe Osborn bass for [then] company head, Dan Lakin. Richard liked the bass so much that he was also gifted one by Lakland so he could occasionally "play along" at home, as he was/is very fond of Joe's playing style and technique. Most of the new bass parts recorded for that album were cut using this copy of Joe's original Fender jazz, which Richard then cited actually sounded "better" than Joe's original.
 

tomswift2002

Well-Known Member
I've read that in several places that this was the case, I'll try and look up the source articles. I also read that royalties were also the reason that the Karen/Ella Medley was held back for release on From The Top, due to the prolonged negotiations with Ella's estate.
Actually it was Ella in 1991 who wanted to more money, but once she died, her estate didn’t ask as much.
 

leadmister

Well-Known Member
I've also seen and heard a few times that John Davidson's camp, as well as John Denver's, were very difficult to deal with when it came to trying to license some of their parts on the specials. I believe Richard has cited, in general, that the reason the specials weren't officially released were due to these licensing issues. I believe that's a half truth though, because it is well documented that Richard is embarrassed by some of the stuff on those specials, and also believes some of it is dated.

The studio footage of Richard and Joe rehearsing the bass parts for Nowhere Man was a blast to watch and I would relish every second of the footage they filmed if it were available for us to see in its entirety. It has given me a renewed appreciation for Richard's bass line writing abilities, as well as Joe's interpretations of them. The Lakland bass was pretty nice and recorded very well. I tried one of them out in the early 2000's, and they play and feel just like the 60's style Fender Jazz Bass, but with modern passive graphite pickups, yielding way better results when recording. This is no doubt why Richard liked it better. The $2500 price tag, though, put me off of ever wanting to acquire one. I ended up with a used Fender J for a few hundred bucks and was thoroughly satisfied with it.
 

A&M Retro

Well-Known Member
Here's a little look in to the session from As Time Goes By; Richard, bassist Joe Osborn and Richard's long-time copyist, the late Ron Gorrow working down some of the studio magic (password: nowhere2018). Also included is the brief explanation of the master transfer on California Dreamin':

Wow! This is awesome, Chris. Thanks for sharing it with us. If you listen closely, you'll hear Richard reveal yet another unreleased song title that was apparently dropped from the project: 'Coming Thru The Rye'. :) Sounds like there's a studio version of that in the vaults.
 

GaryAlan

Well-Known Member
Because it was not explicitly stated in the Liner Notes to ATGB,
I had not believed that Richard's vocals had been recorded for You're Just In Love
prior to the cd being prepared for release.
2000: He writes "again with my singing John's parts"
He does not specify that his recorded vocals occurred May 13, 1980,
as he did specify for the song
Without A Song.
I always felt it sounded like a much later Richard Carpenter (not 1980,
as I used as comparison the RC vocals heard at Karen's wedding).
 

Geographer

Well-Known Member
there are people that will jump at any opportunity to berate Richard. a&m chose not to release Karen's album. karen chose to continue self-destructive behavior that lead to her demise. every family has screwed-up dynamics, every business relationship has conflicts. Richard has put in a hell of a lot of time Karen's image wrapped in plastic. I am sure there a great financial inducements and probably personal facets, of which, thankfully, we will never know. those are his choices. I get really steamed that some will fault him at every turning. he did not kill karen; it seems that he tried, against her will, to protect her to the end. get off the guy's back.
Bravo!!! Thank you!!!
 

Chris May

Resident 'Carpenterologist'
Thread Starter
Staff member
Moderator
Wow! This is awesome, Chris. Thanks for sharing it with us. If you listen closely, you'll hear Richard reveal yet another unreleased song title that was apparently dropped from the project: 'Coming Thru The Rye'. :) Sounds like there's a studio version of that in the vaults.
There is :)
 

Chris May

Resident 'Carpenterologist'
Thread Starter
Staff member
Moderator
Because it was not explicitly stated in the Liner Notes to ATGB,
I had not believed that Richard's vocals had been recorded for You're Just In Love
prior to the cd being prepared for release.
2000: He writes "again with my singing John's parts"
He does not specify that his recorded vocals occurred May 13, 1980,
as he did specify for the song
Without A Song.
I always felt it sounded like a much later Richard Carpenter (not 1980,
as I used as comparison the RC vocals heard at Karen's wedding).
Richard's vocals were cut back in '80... just as an FYI...
 

Chris May

Resident 'Carpenterologist'
Thread Starter
Staff member
Moderator
And @Chris May, did Karen ever do the full version of Ella's parts?
This one I can’t say for certain Mark. However as a producer, for a production like this you would typically (in this case) have Karen cut a full lead, as often times the final decision as to who’s going to sing what sometimes doesn’t happen until (or close to) taping. If nothing else the mix could be manipulated on the fly to suit the final arrangement. Haven’t heard the master on this one nor have I ever asked Richard.
 
Top Bottom