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Official Review [Album]: "CARPENTERS" S/T (SP-3502)

Discussion in 'A Song For You: The Carpenters Forum' started by Chris May, Mar 8, 2013.


  1. ***** (BEST)

    18 vote(s)
  2. ****

    31 vote(s)
  3. ***

    7 vote(s)
  4. **

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  5. *

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  1. BarryT60

    BarryT60 Well-Known Member

    Yes - yes - - I totally want to add a hearty dose of gratitude to the aforementioned gents for the terrific additions to the site.
    I started collecting Billboard's in the late 70's... so these earlier gems are a nifty treat!
    And I rather liked the marketing efforts A & M utilized for these early single releases.
    None of the other ads for new releases are nearly as creative nor as sophisticated....
    Jamesj75 likes this.
  2. GaryAlan

    GaryAlan Well-Known Member

    I notice, on the Billboard Ads--and, thanks for posting these gems!---
    that Jack Daugherty is mentioned as Producer....this, when Richard Carpenter
    (and, A&M Records) ultimately fired him for not being a producer.
    If it was so contentious an issue, then Why? was Jack Daugherty even
    given credit in these Billboard Advertisements?
    Someone had to "Okay' these Ads, both from a marketing and financial perspective.
    Again, and it has never been fully explained to me:
    What did Jack Daugherty do, or not do, on these recordings?
  3. newvillefan

    newvillefan I Know My First Name Is Stephen

    Jack Daugherty was involved with booking studios, session musicians etc and generally helping with the logistics to keep the recording process smooth and flowing. He was not involved in the creating, arranging, orchestrating or recording of the albums themselves. I think it probably rankled with Richard from day one, until Daugherty was eventually given credit for the flagship album 'A Song For You', which is when he finally put his foot down.
  4. GaryAlan

    GaryAlan Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Stephen.
    Now, instead of firing Daugherty, why not credit him as an associate producer ?
    credit him for something--as, those singles and albums in which he had a hand in--
    did not reach the top of the charts without his help--if, the sales and charts for the later
    singles and albums is any indication of his relative standing.
    And, he is expressly thanked at the Grammy Awards by Karen and Richard.
  5. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Honolulu City Lights

    Here is a 2 page promo ad that ran in Billboard Dec 25, 1971, the caption indicates it's for the year 71 and Carpenters setting records so it should be posted under Carpenters 71 album thread although they are using the A Song For You photo. It's kinda hard to read but it says this:

    #1 Easy Listening Artists
    #2 Specific Singles Artists
    #3 Top Albums, Close To You
    #5 Group, Albums
    #7 Overall Album Artists
    #39 Top Albums, Carpenters

    A&M Records

    GaryAlan and song4u like this.
  6. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Honolulu City Lights

    Billboard small review of album "Carpenters"

  7. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Honolulu City Lights

    Here is a cool artwork logo that was featured in Billboard July 17, 1971 for album Carpenters

  8. Murray

    Murray Well-Known Member

    That would make a cool bumper sticker!
  9. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Honolulu City Lights

    or a t-shirt...
    I'd wear that now....Carpenters records and tapes...(no cd's) :laugh:
    can you imagine how many people would comment on that shirt, hey I remember them...etc..
  10. GaryAlan

    GaryAlan Well-Known Member

    Richard Carpenter makes reference to Jose Feliciano
    providing an intro to "For All We Know":
    " No, I didn't have oboe in mind originally. "
    "We had run into Jose Feliciano at one of our favorite restaurants."
    " He really admired our records and asked if he could play on an upcoming one.
    It so happened to be just at the time we were rush recording "For All We Know".
    Karen and I were honored, answered in the affirmative and in no time we were in Studio A at A&M Studios.
    Jose came up with that lovely intro and played here and there on his nylon string acoustic through the rest of the recording, and all ended well.
    Or so we thought. The following day I received a call from his manager, an incredibly rude man who so much as ordered me to remove Jose from the recording."

    Leading to my next question:
    After all this time, this would make for an interesting alternative recording of For All We Know.
    Did they discard--after removing-- Jose's instrumental accompaniment ?
    What would the song sound like with Jose's 'nylon string acoustic' throughout ?
    Don Malcolm likes this.
  11. newvillefan

    newvillefan I Know My First Name Is Stephen

    I've often wondered what the alternate 'string' version would have sounded like. My guess is the part was deleted or recorded over. It's funny but I can't imagine it sounding better than the oboe intro we have now - it sounds so much warmer than what I'd imagine a nylon string guitar to sound like.

    Either way, I don't think Richard would release it if it did exist...the same as he won't release the first two takes of 'Close To You'.
    Don Malcolm likes this.
  12. Tapdancer

    Tapdancer Active Member

    It all depends! The notes in the melody on a nylon string acoustic will certainly not have the sustain of those same notes played on the oboe; once plucked, there is a relatively rapid fall-off in volume.

    But - as the great guitarist John Williams once astutely observed - "the magic of the classical guitar lies in the dying of the note." And although Jose Feliciano was not a classical guitarist, he did play on the classical instrument. This alone gave his general playing a warmer edge than if he were playing on a conventional acoustic body, nylon strung or not. So if he were both properly miked and brought up-front in the recording, it should at least have sounded sweet.

    Alternatively, there are a number of ways in which the versatile Feliciano could have played the intro to make up for the loss of sustain, were that to be an issue. He may have: (i) employed 'tremolo' technique on the melody, much like a mandolin (if using a pick) or as a classical guitarist (if using the nails); (ii) played the 4-note arpeggiated accompaniment that we hear played by the piano on the released version, in addition to playing the single note melody (and this is the most likely way a classical player would do it); or (iii) used any combination of melody and strummed chord to achieve fullness of sound.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
    GaryAlan and Don Malcolm like this.
  13. GaryAlan

    GaryAlan Well-Known Member

    Listening to "For All We Know"
    from the --
    Richard Carpenter:tongue:roducer, Arranger, Composer, Conductor CD,
    which sounds quite nice.
    Which leads (back) into the (many) possibilities that this song lends itself to !
    Jose's acoustic guitar playing would be very interesting to hear on the song.
    And, he did open for them. (Sell-Out crowd , May 29, 1975 Riviera, Las Vegas ).
    (Perhaps an acoustic guitar for its mimic "Leave Yesterday Behind " ?)
    And, at the Riviera performance, "Any Day Now" was included in Carpenters' Bacharach Medley.
    How, again, does that song get 'forgotten' on the Album. (Makes no sense to me.)

  14. newvillefan

    newvillefan I Know My First Name Is Stephen

    As far as I'm aware, they knocked together a shortened version of the medley due to time constraints and Richard not having time to select other material. He struggled with this again in 1973, which is why the Oldies medley was resurrected for Now and Then.
  15. GaryAlan

    GaryAlan Well-Known Member

    I'm reminded of the recent John Bettis interview where he points out that
    Richard Carpenter was an expert at the lost art of Medleys.
    And, it seems, there were many instances of Carpenters' Medleys:
    Bacharach Medley (the initial February 27, 1970 Reiss-Davis; Coleman, page 82)
    The Bacharach Medley on Carpenters LP
    Medley Now & Then, Side Two
    Various Concert Medleys
    Como Christmas Medley
    First Television Special Hits Medley
    Ella/Karen Medley
    Music, Music, Music Ending Medley

    And, I'm certain to have forgotten each instance of a Medley !
    That would be an interesting exercise.

    I always assumed that Richard Carpenter simply (over-) enjoyed arranging medleys !
  16. newvillefan

    newvillefan I Know My First Name Is Stephen

    A few more spring to my mind, including the various Christmas album medleys ('Winter Wonderland' medley as well as all the various instrumental ones) and the one that appeared on his second solo album: Sing/Goodbye To Love/Eve/Rainy Days and Mondays/Look To Your Dreams/Superstar/Someday.
  17. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Honolulu City Lights

    Here are a couple single reviews for this album from Billboard, both were predicted to reach top 20 on chart signified with *


  18. newvillefan

    newvillefan I Know My First Name Is Stephen

    I always loved how they flipped Rainy Days And Mondays with Saturday :)
    goodjeans likes this.
  19. GaryAlan

    GaryAlan Well-Known Member

    Thanks for those Chris !
    Stephen, an interesting comment, as I never much cared for Saturday !
    (That being said, it does have great harmonies.)
    I see, again, Jack Daugherty credited for production.
    (Seriously folks, did he do nothing on these records?)
  20. byline

    byline Active Member

    I don't think it's a matter of him doing "nothing" ... but rather a distinction between what he did and did not do. My recollection is that he was described as more of an A&R guy. Which would have involved a fair bit of work, but was not the same as producing those records. My memory is hazy as to the reason given for why A&M designated him as producer, but I seem to recall that there was this perception that no one outside their circle would believe someone as young and inexperienced in the record business as Richard was (starting out) could come up with those sophisticated productions.
  21. Rumbahbah

    Rumbahbah Well-Known Member

    The role of Jack Daugherty as 'producer' is a puzzle. I can well believe that Richard had a significant role in what would be termed 'production' on the early albums, but it seems strange that he wasn't credited as such for four whole albums. The strange thing is that Jack wasn't a 'producer' known for producing anything else, so it's not as if adding him to credits would add any kudos to proceedings.

    Whilst it's possible that A&M didn't think people would believe Richard was responsible for production given his age, there were other artists producing quite groundbreaking work at a similar age who got credit for it - Laura Nyro co-produced her New York Tendaberry album in 1969 at the age of 21, for example. Moreover, I would say that much of the production of the songs on Offering wasn't as sophisticated as their later material would be, so if Richard was the sole producer for this, I don't think people would have found it inconceivable that a newbie in their early 20s had been responsible.
  22. GaryAlan

    GaryAlan Well-Known Member

    Byline and Rumbahbah,
    Thanks for the thoughtful responses !
    I enjoyed reading those responses to my question.
    It still puzzles me, why not have Richard Carpenter credited in the first place for production duties.
    I would have thought that even after the lackluster reception of Offering, if those at A&M witnessed the
    talent(s) of Karen and Richard Carpenter during the 'making and recording' of that album, there would
    never have been a thought of dismissing those two from the artist roster.
    Richard Carpenter would have been noted not only as a fine pianist, composer, arrange; but ,also
    a first-rate Producer !
    And, Karen Carpenter, those vocals and drumming, who would even consider letting her off of the A&M roster?
    A&M could have retained Jack Daugherty in some capacity,especially considering the cost of later litigation.
    Certainly, he was a valued employee at some juncture for A&M Records.(?)
  23. GaryAlan

    GaryAlan Well-Known Member

    Of Course, Richard Carpenter deserves his due credit,
    to negate the popular misconception that Daugherty was unaccomplished as a producer:

    Billboard Magazine, page 30, August 28, 1971
    " A&M records threw a soundstage lunch for Jack Daugherty,
    the Carpenters' producer, and his 'Class of 1971' Big Band Album."
    Billboard Magazine, page 23, September 1974:
    Review Jack Daugherty 'Class of 1971',
    "The composer,arranger,producer (The Carpenters), Daugherty covers a
    wide variety of music in this delightful program of original music, some
    jazz, some pop, some rock.With a varied audience appeal, this program should
    garner heavy MOR play and end up a strong sales item for the charts."
    Billboard Magazine, page 46,December 11, 1976:
    " Jack Daugherty, the producer who helped the Carpenters get a rash of pop hits,
    has cut a big band jazz LP for Monterey Records,
    entitled The Jack Daugherty Orchestra 'Carmel By The Sea'."
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015
  24. byline

    byline Active Member

    Well, they call it the music business for a reason. Generally speaking, if artists don't make a profit for the record company, they are dropped regardless of their talent. However, that trend certainly has accelerated in recent years. Back in those days artists were given more of a chance to grow and catch on. But I don't think A&M had as solid a financial footing back then as it did once Richard and Karen achieved their remarkable commercial success, so maybe the Carpenters' tenure there was still ... well, tenuous. Richard has alluded to his belief that there a desire at least by some at A&M to dump them. I think already there was perhaps grumbling about them being "uncool" ... which still strikes me as strange, given the artists who were on A&M's roster at that time. It was a fairly eclectic mix. But my sense is that Herb Alpert really was their champion at A&M. Both Karen and Richard noted that without Herb, they didn't know where they'd have been by then.
  25. song4u

    song4u Well-Known Member

    I think it's really sad that their own label, which according to some accounts was kept afloat by the Carpenters catalog, weren't more grateful to them. Yes, it is a business, but K&R helped keep them in business! Given the reputation of A&M as being a welcoming location for a variety of music styles, it is puzzling why image was an issue for them as long as the catalog sold well. :hmmm:

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