⭐ Official Review [Album]: "HORIZON" (SP-4530)

HOW WOULD YOU RATE THIS ALBUM?

  • ***** (BEST)

    Votes: 51 49.0%
  • ****

    Votes: 36 34.6%
  • ***

    Votes: 13 12.5%
  • **

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • *

    Votes: 2 1.9%

  • Total voters
    104
A Question for the musical experts:
Please describe the difference--as evidenced on the song Please Mr. Postman--
between utilization of the Tenor Sax (Bob Messenger) and Baritone Sax (Doug Strawn).
I do not know the difference (in sound) between those two when played during this song !
Thanks for the indulgence in my silly question !
 
On a related Horizon note:
Does any one have a "Forget-Me-Nots" 45-single of
Only Yesterday ?
The printed time code on the record says 3:45,
but, the song as played on this record is not the edited mix.
(Hopefully, someone can verify this.)
 
Does any one have--and, played--the 3-inch cd-single
from Japan (1995, PODM-1061) of
Top of The World
with
Desperado ?
If so, not only does it utilize the
remix of Top of The World,
but--and, correct me if I am wrong--
the (re)mix of
Desperado
is quite distinct (especially, drums and piano) from that which appears on Horizon .

Do my ears deceive me?
 
As that 3" CD was issued in 1996, it probably uses the most recent version of "Desperado" which had some tweaking done for the 1994 INTERPRETATIONS (UK) disc. In the original mix of the song, the opening harmonica is placed slightly right in the mix, but in this remix, the opening harmonica is more centered.

Harry
 
As I listen to this album, a few thoughts come to mind:
Three Singles were released in support of Horizon,
each Single distinctly different than what appeared on the Album,
that is--
Please Mr. Postman...Single was more 'tough' sounding than it's album version,
Only Yesterday....a single which was ended/faded much sooner than it's album version,
Solitaire...a single with more punch than what appeared on the album.

So, back to my thoughts/queries....
(1) Was the decision to alter the Single/Album incarnations made before/after/during album song sequencing ?
In other words, the ten songs on Horizon...were they recorded and mixed 'piecemeal' --and, thought of firstly
as Single releases---then, reassembled/remixed (etc.) into a coherent/completed album afterward ?
(2) As released, the Singles Postman and Solitaire have much more punch, whereas the reverse is true for the
shortened single Only Yesterday (it's album incarnation being superior).
Also, I realize other Single releases previous to Horizon have notable differences between the single and the album,
Close To You , which has more 'punch' on the album (that great extended ending).
So, again, are these alterations made for aesthetic,artistic, accomplishment,
or entirely a result of using the Single--as Richard Carpenter (1975,Compendium)
says " as a promotion/marketing tool to get the public to purchase the album".
(3) Were album sales (and chart position) impacted due to these alterations between single and album versions --
that is, if an impact was at all felt as a result of those alterations ?
 
Singles back then had altered versions for one main reason - airplay on radio.

"Only Yesterday" was shortened to fit into radio's "allowed" time of under 4 minutes. The other two were altered in sound for the punch factor - how they'd sound on physical radios and how they'd stand out next to the other records of the day.

Harry
 
Thanks, Harry !
Which response harks back to Karen and Richard's response to Wink Martindale's interview when they both--
in unison--responded that they were disappointed in Only Yesterday, only by virtue of it having sold
600,000 copies to that date. I wonder--had it not been altered for Single release--if it would have
(1) charted higher than #4 and sold a Million,
and,
(2) if the alterations on Solitaire (as a single release) occurred to Richard after
Only Yesterday failed to achieve his sales/chart goals, and, thus he gave it some 'punch',
and, yet, failed to keep same on the Horizon Album.
and, finally,
(3) Was the Album "in the can" previous to decisions on those two singles; were decisions
made on a sequencing placement and creative remixes made independent of each other ?
(Hope I make any sense on this issue.). Could said album have charted higher than #13 in America
if continuity between the single and album mixes had been upheld ?
 
(3) Was the Album "in the can" previous to decisions on those two singles; were decisions
made on a sequencing placement and creative remixes made independent of each other ?
(Hope I make any sense on this issue.). Could said album have charted higher than #13 in America
if continuity between the single and album mixes had been upheld ?

I don't know for sure but I'd guess that, with the exception of Postman which was released a few months before the album, the rest of the album was arranged and sequenced as a complete set and released. Only after that, when they decided on this or that song to release as a 45, would they look at the track and see if it needed to be 'beefed up' or altered in any way to suit the current style of airplay.
 
Good Point, Stephen.

I read in The A&M Compendium interview Richard saying (this is at end of March) the album was 85% done,
and the song Solitaire--Richard mentioned-- had given them some problems in recording.
("...we blew two weeks on this recording...it just wouldn't go together."
and, " We've got two on this album...songs strong enough to be a single, Solitaire and Desperado..)
Now,
Solitaire (peak #17) plays longer (and, slower) than Only Yesterday (peak #4),
additionally Solitaire released
in mid-July (18th)--this,
after Horizon (June) was in release.
Apparently the album took upwards of six months--instead of the average three months for an album.
(excluding the far-below-average time of three weeks spent working on The Singles 1969-1973 Album.)
I always found it strange that at the time of the Martindale interview (late 1970's) , both Carpenters were dismayed with
the sales of Only Yesterday (..."only 600,000 copies...") but nothing was said regarding Solitaire--as a single.
And, yet, in the Coleman Biography (page 181) it is claimed that there were no high expectations for the Carpenter-Bettis song,
on which a bet was placed with their Engineer regarding the chart-potential of the song.
(" believing it was not a big hit, lost a thousand-dollar bet with their recording Engineer Roger Young when it went Top 5 in April 1975...").

I am interested in the give and take regarding the Singles selected and the mixes as they accur on this album because,
well, after almost two years from the release of the previous Album expectations were high and then the album only
charts to #13,
and, I still believing it should have been Top Five--if not a Grammy Nomination--therefore I ask
Why?
 
Even stranger is the fact that with "Please Mr. Postman" being released in November of 1974 and following IMMEDIATELY on its heels was "Santa Claus Is Comin' To Town" in the same month.

If I recall correctly, the "Postman" single was sort of "preempted" by the "Santa Claus" record, not getting tons of airplay until after Christmas of 1974, then climbing the charts in earnest in January of 1975.

Then we had to wait almost 6 months for the release of HORIZON and its release-single "Only Yesterday".

Harry
 
As for "Solitaire's" length, I would imagine a number of radio station fading the record early at around 3:15.
 
I read in The A&M Compendium interview Richard saying (this is at end of March) the album was 85% done,
and the song Solitaire--Richard mentioned-- had given them some problems in recording.
("...we blew two weeks on this recording...it just wouldn't go together."

That's an interesting quote, I'd like to know more from Richard what he means by that.
 
Here you are, Stephen:
From 1975 Compendium (late March) Interview:
Q: How far are you from finishing it ?
Richard Carpenter:
"Oh, we're on a sustained forge, this last week we've picked up, so I would say we are about 85 % done.
We'll have it done by May 8th. We tried computer mix, we thought that would be a good idea, and it turned
out not to be a good idea. We blew two weeks on one song, Solitaire, it just wouldn't go together, and we couldn't figure
out why. I've never had that happen before. I've had times where I thought the arrangement was finished and we'd go
into mix, and then I would hear something else and we'd run into a studio and put it on. But, we're past that point.
Everything was on it, and it still didn't sound right, and it turned out we couldn't get the natural flow of the thing with the
computer mix. You can just sit there and do one thing at a time. You may be getting two bars of piano that needs to be brought up
at the end of the song, and you have to wait and let it go through the whole song, sit there and then raise it up and then start over."
Karen Carpenter: "It was very boring. We never got the right feel."
 
Good Point, Stephen.

I always found it strange that at the time of the Martindale interview (late 1970's) , both Carpenters were dismayed with
the sales of Only Yesterday (..."only 600,000 copies...") but nothing was said regarding Solitaire--as a single.
And, yet, in the Coleman Biography (page 181) it is claimed that there were no high expectations for the Carpenter-Bettis song,
on which a bet was placed with their Engineer regarding the chart-potential of the song.
(" believing it was not a big hit, lost a thousand-dollar bet with their recording Engineer Roger Young when it went Top 5 in April 1975...").

This comment on Richard's supposed doubts on the chart potential of 'Only Yesterday' always struck me as odd, given that a) it's clearly a very commercial song and b) if he didn't feel it would be a big hit, releasing it as a single ahead of the release of Horizon would be a very strange move indeed, as then you'd hardly be giving the parent album its best shot at doing well.

In terms of Gary's thoughts on whether the mixes issued as singles from Horizon affected their chart potential, I'd have to imagine probably not. The single version of 'Only Yesterday' is largely identical to the album version, just an earlier fade, while I think only fans would have easily spotted that there were any differences between the single and album versions of 'Please Mr Postman' and 'Solitaire' - the changes, as with many Carpenters 'remixes', are pretty minor.

That does still leave the mystery of why Horizon stopped short of the Top 10 despite being trailed by two big hits, which should have been sufficient to have created enough demand to push it higher. I don't think 'Solitaire' was a good choice of single to support the album once it was already released, but maybe the tide was turning for them already by this stage, despite the largely solid material they were putting out.
 
There was also a recession in the U.S. from late '73 through 1975. Not sure how harshly that affected the music industry, but I would imagine some decline in sales could simply be attributed to wider economic factors.
 
I have thought that the timing of the release of the singles did not do the Carpenters a favor. After the huge success of the Close to You album, I would have thought the A&M suits would have released a new single when the album was first released, not months before it. The delay between the release of Postman and the album it contained surely had a negative impact on sales.
 
I have thought that the timing of the release of the singles did not do the Carpenters a favor. After the huge success of the Close to You album, I would have thought the A&M suits would have released a new single when the album was first released, not months before it. The delay between the release of Postman and the album it contained surely had a negative impact on sales.

Agreed (imagine the suits would have loved having a new Carpenters record to market earlier, if K&R had been willing to concede their perfectionism...thankfully they were not). Add in the negative press surrounding the Sedaka firing, and the fact that Carpenters were going on five years of heavy airplay and probably due for some of the inevitable backlash...as great as Horizon was, there were a lot of things happening to influence sales.
 
Here you are, Stephen:
From 1975 Compendium (late March) Interview:
Q: How far are you from finishing it ?
Richard Carpenter:
"Oh, we're on a sustained forge, this last week we've picked up, so I would say we are about 85 % done.
We'll have it done by May 8th. We tried computer mix, we thought that would be a good idea, and it turned
out not to be a good idea. We blew two weeks on one song, Solitaire, it just wouldn't go together, and we couldn't figure
out why. I've never had that happen before. I've had times where I thought the arrangement was finished and we'd go
into mix, and then I would hear something else and we'd run into a studio and put it on. But, we're past that point.
Everything was on it, and it still didn't sound right, and it turned out we couldn't get the natural flow of the thing with the
computer mix. You can just sit there and do one thing at a time. You may be getting two bars of piano that needs to be brought up
at the end of the song, and you have to wait and let it go through the whole song, sit there and then raise it up and then start over."
Karen Carpenter: "It was very boring. We never got the right feel."

This is great, thank you for posting GaryAlan! I just love reading archival stuff like this. Does anyone know what this "computer mix" is that Richard says botched the recording of Solitaire? In the context of 1975 I'm not sure if it's a piece of equipment they tried using or just an alternative mixing process.
 
The input regarding my previous query has been most enjoyable to peruse, Thanks to all !

Now, a trip down memory lane via the Fan Club Newsletters:
(#38) August 1974: "They are presently working on a new album."
(#39) October 1974: "...duo have received numerous letters of congratulations for their unforgettable performance on Boston Pops,
Richard's rendition of Warsaw Concerto was indeed a masterpiece."
(#40) December 1974:" Please Mr. Postman, their new single is another hit. The single Santa Claus Is Coming To Town should be in stores soon."
Karen developed Laryngitis in November, resulting in cancellation of several concerts.
Las Vegas concerts were recorded professionally, went so well they recorded them for a future Live Album, audience loved Warsaw Concerto."
(#41) February 1975:"Richard spends his daylight hours working on songs and arrangements for upcoming albums. Their long-awaited three month
vacation has gone down the drain due to heavy bookings, the vacation time has been replaced by concerts."
(#42--is undated, April or May): "New single Only Yesterday will win another Gold record for them. Both songs, Postman and Only Yesterday
will appear on the new album (sic.) "Horizons" which they are recording now."
(#43) June 1975: "The new album will be released this month.
(#44) August 1975: "The new album, Horizon, was shipped Gold. Solitaire was released Friday, July 18 and we hope it will follow suit."
"Richard has decided against a Live album, as most of the songs are already on albums."

Newsletter of October 1975...herein the Sedaka Incident mentioned, Japan tour cancellations, and Karen's illness brought to fore.
 
Their long-awaited three month
vacation has gone down the drain due to heavy bookings, the vacation time has been replaced by concerts."
No wonder these guys were so sapped of their physical and creative energies. I sometimes wonder if anybody (including Karen and Rich themselves) stopped to think about the condition they were in.
 
Well, it didn't stop them from making Horizon, after A Kind Of Hush let them catch their breaths...


-- Dave
 
Hi
I think if Horizion had been released the week of 25 january 1975 when Postman was no 1 in the US it would have made the top 10 and sold more copies.
 
Hi
I think if Horizion had been released the week of 25 january 1975 when Postman was no 1 in the US it would have made the top 10 and sold more copies.

This makes a good deal of sense.

As things turned out, a typical fan would have bought "Please Mr. Postman" in late 74 and "Only Yesterday" in early 75. That would have also given access to the b-side album track "Happy." As the album was finally being released, "Solitaire" became a single and had as its b-side "Love Me For What I Am". That meant that if you bought the singles, you already had basically more than half of the album - and these singles were all in stereo.

All that's left on the "new" album are the "Aurora"/"Eventide" bookends. Sublime yes, but essentially one song. Then there's "Desperado", a re-do of an Eagles song that's a bit slow and plodding; "I Can Dream Can't I?", a dreamy salute to the big band era; and "(I'm Caught Between) Goodbye And I Love You", a nice but inconsequential album track. In the cash-strapped '70s, I can see why a fan might not have grabbed HORIZON right away, but maybe waited until later, thus keeping the album a little lower in the charts.

Harry
 
Apparently the duo toiled on this Album from August 1974 (ref: Newsletter#38,above) to the end of April 1975...roughly six
to eight months...it taking more than twice the average time taken to complete previous albums.
Yet, the only blurb detailing this album for the 40th Anniversary Liner Notes states that this album "...differed from the previous
albums mostly by value of its production." Here, Karen was 25 in March 1975, and Richard would be 4 years her senior in October.
This is why the oft-mentioned " too-tired from overwork" (i.e., touring) holds little sway in my eyes. After all they were in their Twenties.

The Late March 1975 Compendium Interview gives no indication whatsoever of that which we find in the
Coleman Biography :
"Richard was on his knees as they were in the studio making Horizon." (Page 181).
"Karen loved the whole commotion of touring, the camaraderie, the energy level, even the boring flights." (ibid., Page 184).
"But she was now in terrible shape. Richard, too, felt exhausted."(ibid.)
And,
Richard Carpenter (via The Carpenter Site Fans Ask):
" I agree with the thought that the album should have had more material,
and in fact " Tryin' to Get The Feeling Again" was cut for it.
In retrospect this should have been included, however, I felt there were too many ballads.
Karen and I were overbooked and low on energy.
Our touring schedule was really unrealistic.
-----Despite all this, Horizon is impeccably produced, with Karen never singing and sounding better."

The Newsletters consistently mention much time spent in the Television Studio,the duo appearing on a number of Television programs.
(This, even before the ABC Specials were commissioned.)
This, in my eyes, was the overriding reason for the energy-sap, as Television Taping is grueling.
Why--in various documentaries--is the issue of time spent recording television programs not brought up as an energy-draining issue ?
 
Hi
Noticed carpenters only appeared once on Tv and that was atAmerican Music Awards on feb 18th 1975 for that year.Maybe they should have appeared on more Tv in 1975 and spent less time touring and a lot more people would have seen them on Tv than in concert .I think it would have been less draining for them than being constantly on the road and all that travrlling as well.
 
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