I see your point about a few of the Horizon tracks having already appeared on the singles that preceded its release, but that would only have been an issue for the fans who bought all of them - and those are exactly the ones who probably wouldn't have held off buying the album at all (or only for a little while). The strange issue with Horizon seems to be that a significant number of people who'd bought their earlier albums, whether fans or (more likely) casual buyers, didn't just wait to purchase it, they never purchased it, hence its rather lower sales figures in the US and shorter run on the charts. Yet other albums were still doing brisk business at the same time, so it wasn't like the whole market was depressed. It's easy to understand the weaker sales performance of A Kind of Hush because, by and large, the album's not up to snuff quality-wise, but Horizon was a mostly solid effort - even some of the critics at the time thought so.
⭐ Official Review [Album]: "HORIZON" (SP-4530)
- Thread starter Chris May
- Start date
I see your point about a few of the Horizon tracks having already appeared on the singles that preceded its release, but that would only have been an issue for the fans who bought all of them - and those are exactly the ones who probably wouldn't have held off buying the album at all (or only for a little while). The strange issue with Horizon seems to be that a significant number of people who'd bought their earlier albums, whether fans or (more likely) casual buyers, didn't just wait to purchase it, they never purchased it, hence its rather lower sales figures in the US and shorter run on the charts. Yet other albums were still doing brisk business at the same time, so it wasn't like the whole market was depressed. It's easy to understand the weaker sales performance of A Kind of Hush because, by and large, the album's not up to snuff quality-wise, but Horizon was a mostly solid effort - even some of the critics at the time thought so.
Must Hear This Album
Well-Known Member
I’ve wondered about the “disappointing" chart position of Horizon, and over the years I’ve read a lot of prognostics about timing of singles / “no sell-through single,” etc., which could certainly have been a factor in 1975, but I’m wondering if something completely different might have been happening. From my observation, the few artists who achieve Carpenters’ level of commercial success (e.g., Carole King, Sting, Cheryl Crow) are able to "stay on top" for more than 3-5 years. After that, the hits start to wane, and popular artists then settle into a comfortable fan base that keeps them putting out records and touring, but maybe no longer consistently placing singles at the top of the charts (I know exceptions exist, like Elton John and Madonna, but by and large, this seems to be the trend). I wonder if Carpenters had simply had their run on the singles charts, and Horizon’s performance was simply the natural progression of a remarkable hit-making career.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
For Only Yesterday to reach the top 5 on Billboard, I'd say that was a sell-through single. Richard certainly applied this theory to Karen's solo album saying the reason it would not have been successful was because for artists like them, their albums needed a top 5 single to make album sales "go nuts" - and that the solo album didn't contain one.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Adam, and yes, you may have a point . Great points from all !
Although, again, I am trying to arrive at an over-all picture of the circumstances surrounding the "making and recording"
of Horizon, a period roughly from August 1974 to April 1975.
The timing of the release of three Singles (Postman, Only Yesterday, Solitaire) seems to be the biggest 'mis-step' in regards to this
album not reaching Top Ten. (And, apparently Richard thought of Desperado as single material, also.)
Solitaire--in itself a fantastic Carpenters' offering--only barely denting the top 20 is mildly puzzling to me, also.
(I do not think the bad press from the Sedaka Incident had been publicized yet....though I have not delved into the dates...).
The Compendium interview (Late March 1975) touches on Carpenters' being--at that time--one of the most popular and bankable artists on the planet,
in particular Richard Carpenter detailing the Singles released to that point....the sales and chart positions.
(But, nothing in this interview gives any indication of overbooked tours causing tired-ness.
Bandmember Gary Sims, 1997, refers to the tours like this: "good thing we were young, it was hard work, but fun" .
After nearly two years without a 'new' album, expectations high, the album should have stormed the American charts:
it is for this reason I remain quite interested in the historical circumstances surrounding the making, recording,marketing of this album.
Although, again, I am trying to arrive at an over-all picture of the circumstances surrounding the "making and recording"
of Horizon, a period roughly from August 1974 to April 1975.
The timing of the release of three Singles (Postman, Only Yesterday, Solitaire) seems to be the biggest 'mis-step' in regards to this
album not reaching Top Ten. (And, apparently Richard thought of Desperado as single material, also.)
Solitaire--in itself a fantastic Carpenters' offering--only barely denting the top 20 is mildly puzzling to me, also.
(I do not think the bad press from the Sedaka Incident had been publicized yet....though I have not delved into the dates...).
The Compendium interview (Late March 1975) touches on Carpenters' being--at that time--one of the most popular and bankable artists on the planet,
in particular Richard Carpenter detailing the Singles released to that point....the sales and chart positions.
(But, nothing in this interview gives any indication of overbooked tours causing tired-ness.
Bandmember Gary Sims, 1997, refers to the tours like this: "good thing we were young, it was hard work, but fun" .
After nearly two years without a 'new' album, expectations high, the album should have stormed the American charts:
it is for this reason I remain quite interested in the historical circumstances surrounding the making, recording,marketing of this album.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
More:
(quoted from Udiscover) " It debuted on the Billboard album chart at No. 38 and was inside the top 20 in its fourth week,
but perhaps surprisingly, its progress then slowed down. It ran out of momentum in a three-week stay at No. 13."
And:
1975 Billboard Year-End Chart: Horizon is not in Top 100.
And:
Richard Carpenter:
"It took a long time to do that album, and I was wearing out."
(Bronson , Billboard #1 Hits--under Please Mr. Postman)
Certified Platinum May 1998.
(quoted from Udiscover) " It debuted on the Billboard album chart at No. 38 and was inside the top 20 in its fourth week,
but perhaps surprisingly, its progress then slowed down. It ran out of momentum in a three-week stay at No. 13."
And:
1975 Billboard Year-End Chart: Horizon is not in Top 100.
And:
Richard Carpenter:
"It took a long time to do that album, and I was wearing out."
(Bronson , Billboard #1 Hits--under Please Mr. Postman)
Certified Platinum May 1998.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
I quote from Tom Nolan, An Appraisal (1975, first page precedes Compendium Interview):
" ...most exciting of all, Desperado.
Richard is expecting the biggest critical sneers yet when the track
is released, because of its underground popularity (though a highly respected song, it has not yet been a hit single)."
Of course, my question remains:
Was Desperado slated to be a single all along? and, then, minds were changed ?
(Richard,late March 1975 : "..strong enough to be a single, two on this album, Solitaire and Desperado...")
" ...most exciting of all, Desperado.
Richard is expecting the biggest critical sneers yet when the track
is released, because of its underground popularity (though a highly respected song, it has not yet been a hit single)."
Of course, my question remains:
Was Desperado slated to be a single all along? and, then, minds were changed ?
(Richard,late March 1975 : "..strong enough to be a single, two on this album, Solitaire and Desperado...")
Consider too the juggernaut of Elton John in 1975. His GREATEST HITS album topped the Billboard album chart in the early part of 1975, while his new album, CAPTAIN FANTASTIC AND THE BROWN DIRT COWBOY peaked and held #1 from the first week of June through the middle of July.
And let's not forget the cover artwork of HORIZON. I know a number of members here go somewhat ga-ga over that cover picture - and while it IS good - the cover doesn't mention Carpenters or HORIZON. There was no identifying info on that cover (initially), so someone browsing through the albums on sale that week would just see a picture - and it might not register with John Q. Public that it was a Carpenters album.
Lots of factors here.
Harry
And let's not forget the cover artwork of HORIZON. I know a number of members here go somewhat ga-ga over that cover picture - and while it IS good - the cover doesn't mention Carpenters or HORIZON. There was no identifying info on that cover (initially), so someone browsing through the albums on sale that week would just see a picture - and it might not register with John Q. Public that it was a Carpenters album.
Lots of factors here.
Harry
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Very interesting information, Harry !
By the way, I always thought the Album Cover--- facing the consumer in the record store bins originally--was
such that the Side with the Big Flap and Title/Logo on said Flap faced outward, with the beautiful photo
of the duo facing on the backside. Otherwise, where I to open up the album--with the duo facing me--I would have to reach around to
open up the flap from behind. (Gee, hope that made any sense.)
In short : Consumers would see the Carpenters Logo and Title, if the album was fronted properly--at that time.
Only Later pressings omitted the Flap from the LP.
By the way, I always thought the Album Cover--- facing the consumer in the record store bins originally--was
such that the Side with the Big Flap and Title/Logo on said Flap faced outward, with the beautiful photo
of the duo facing on the backside. Otherwise, where I to open up the album--with the duo facing me--I would have to reach around to
open up the flap from behind. (Gee, hope that made any sense.)
In short : Consumers would see the Carpenters Logo and Title, if the album was fronted properly--at that time.
Only Later pressings omitted the Flap from the LP.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
The album has a sticker on it after being unwrapped which confirmed it was the Carpenters and 'Horizon'. At least mine does anyway.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Great photo, above !
Thanks!
By the way, the Original Pressings of my USA Copies do not have the Logo/Title placed over the 'back-cover' Photograph.
The Logo/Title ( as above) occurs on The Big Flap on the Album's Front; this flap, which hides the album credits above the song listing.
Thanks!
By the way, the Original Pressings of my USA Copies do not have the Logo/Title placed over the 'back-cover' Photograph.
The Logo/Title ( as above) occurs on The Big Flap on the Album's Front; this flap, which hides the album credits above the song listing.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
The flap is the back of every LP surely? The full frontal picture was never the back of the LP jacket.
Note also that every CD version that I've run into is exactly the way it was on my original LP - no name, no logo, no title, just the picture.
I believe that in other territories, and perhaps later pressings, was where the logo and title found their way to the front.
And yes, for sure there was a sticker on the front identifying the album, but stickers are not as effective as a main title/logo printed on a cover.
I'm not saying that this was THE cause of the lower sales total, but it may have been one of the many factors that led to a poorer showing in the charts. The singles timing, the competition, the natural downturn in careers, the lesser number of tracks, and the vague cover could have all contributed.
Harry
I believe that in other territories, and perhaps later pressings, was where the logo and title found their way to the front.
And yes, for sure there was a sticker on the front identifying the album, but stickers are not as effective as a main title/logo printed on a cover.
I'm not saying that this was THE cause of the lower sales total, but it may have been one of the many factors that led to a poorer showing in the charts. The singles timing, the competition, the natural downturn in careers, the lesser number of tracks, and the vague cover could have all contributed.
Harry
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
My Horizons LP is like the one Harry posted above except mine has a thin outer gray border around the photo, I don't see that on Harry's, there's a flap on the back with the logo and Horizons but nothing on the front.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Well, all I can say regarding what is "front" and what is "back" is to open your 30th Anniversary Box Set.
The Placement of the CD --that is, the manner in which it was originally 'faced'--is with the Big Flap facing
toward 'you', and the great photo of the duo staring 'away from you' (Thus,I call it 'the back' side).
(Note that the 40th Set is not an exact replication of the Artwork as originally done on the Vinyl, and this gives
the erroneous impression of the duo photograph being the Front Side of the original Vinyl Album.)
Later Pressings omitted the flap and then placed the Logo/Title on the duo's photo---then, the 'front-back' scenerio was
juxtaposed.
Later Pressings of the Tan album had no envelope style Flap and later pressings of A Song For You had no side flap.
Later Pressings of The Singles 1969-1973 did not have a textured/raised Logo on the front.
I have these later alterations in my vinyl collection.
Presumably, this saves money on production costs.
The Placement of the CD --that is, the manner in which it was originally 'faced'--is with the Big Flap facing
toward 'you', and the great photo of the duo staring 'away from you' (Thus,I call it 'the back' side).
(Note that the 40th Set is not an exact replication of the Artwork as originally done on the Vinyl, and this gives
the erroneous impression of the duo photograph being the Front Side of the original Vinyl Album.)
Later Pressings omitted the flap and then placed the Logo/Title on the duo's photo---then, the 'front-back' scenerio was
juxtaposed.
Later Pressings of the Tan album had no envelope style Flap and later pressings of A Song For You had no side flap.
Later Pressings of The Singles 1969-1973 did not have a textured/raised Logo on the front.
I have these later alterations in my vinyl collection.
Presumably, this saves money on production costs.
Toolman
Simple Man, Simple Dream
My copy of the vinyl LP, purchased when it was originally released, had the Carpenters logo sticker on the shrink wrap and also a yellow sticker highlighting the names of the included singles. I really didn't think anything of it, other than being a little frustrated (as with all LP jackets that had envelope flaps) that it was necessary to remove the shrinkwrap in order to get the LP out. I preferred to keep the wrap on to protect the jacket.
"Now and Then" didn't really have a very prominent logo on the front, though granted it was there. But the artwork's busy enough that the logo doesn't really "pop" out, to my eye, at least enough to scream "Carpenters" on display. I don't have my LP handy, but I don't recall there even being a track listing incorporated onto that album's artwork. Might be wrong.
"Now and Then" didn't really have a very prominent logo on the front, though granted it was there. But the artwork's busy enough that the logo doesn't really "pop" out, to my eye, at least enough to scream "Carpenters" on display. I don't have my LP handy, but I don't recall there even being a track listing incorporated onto that album's artwork. Might be wrong.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Other Horizon anomalies/stats:
(1) I note that the Logo/Title on the UK Vinyl Covers place said design all over the place: some of them place it
over Karen's hair, some above and to the left of her head, some are placed exactly parallel (not slanted) to the cover above Karen.
(2) Each song credits Composer followed by Lyricist (in that order), until Love Me For What I Am---here John Bettis gets first billing.
(3) Three songs are asterisked--Please Mr. Postman, Happy and Love Me For What I Am---as Engineer being Ray Gerhardt.
(4) If you purchased the Singles, you were getting 59% of the timed-music available on this Album.
(5) Karen is first-billed in Drumming Credits, although--unless I err-- she drums only on Please Mr. Postman.
Fascinating Album in so very many ways.
(1) I note that the Logo/Title on the UK Vinyl Covers place said design all over the place: some of them place it
over Karen's hair, some above and to the left of her head, some are placed exactly parallel (not slanted) to the cover above Karen.
(2) Each song credits Composer followed by Lyricist (in that order), until Love Me For What I Am---here John Bettis gets first billing.
(3) Three songs are asterisked--Please Mr. Postman, Happy and Love Me For What I Am---as Engineer being Ray Gerhardt.
(4) If you purchased the Singles, you were getting 59% of the timed-music available on this Album.
(5) Karen is first-billed in Drumming Credits, although--unless I err-- she drums only on Please Mr. Postman.
Fascinating Album in so very many ways.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
And, again, from the A&M Compendium ( late March 1975) Interview:
Quoting directly ,
Richard Carpenter,
"If we had done this album like we did the other ones, it would have been finished.
But, we're going through a lot of changes and we're learning a lot of things, and
I really find it to be a nice experience."
"I just got into this thing where I wanted every song to be strong enough to be a single.
We've already got two on Horizon, Solitaire is a single, Desperado is a single. Goodbye and
I Love You is a single--and, Happy--which we didn't think was until it was finished, is strong
enough to be a single. What I'm getting at is that there are six or seven songs that could be
singles. They aren't going to be, but that makes for a damn (sic.) good album."
Quoting directly ,
Richard Carpenter,
"If we had done this album like we did the other ones, it would have been finished.
But, we're going through a lot of changes and we're learning a lot of things, and
I really find it to be a nice experience."
"I just got into this thing where I wanted every song to be strong enough to be a single.
We've already got two on Horizon, Solitaire is a single, Desperado is a single. Goodbye and
I Love You is a single--and, Happy--which we didn't think was until it was finished, is strong
enough to be a single. What I'm getting at is that there are six or seven songs that could be
singles. They aren't going to be, but that makes for a damn (sic.) good album."
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
As much as some people have said it, I never thought Happy was strong enough to be a single. A nice album cut but I think had they released it in 1975, it would have broken their streak of top 20 singles just as Goofus did for them a year later.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
I (re-)read the Gold Liner Notes--which, to this day--baffles me:
Richard Carpenter:
"Why I felt that those two additions (electric guitar and pipe organ) were worth all
the trouble and expense incurred is beyond me now."
(Solitaire: difference between single and album mix).
Well, quite frankly, I believe the Single mix is quite superior in its delivery.
I have the 45-single, thankfully.
Also, I would not have purchased Gold-cd were it not for the Single mix of Solitaire.
What was the "trouble" ?
What was the "expense" ?
Why does he not hear this astounding difference?
Richard Carpenter:
"Why I felt that those two additions (electric guitar and pipe organ) were worth all
the trouble and expense incurred is beyond me now."
(Solitaire: difference between single and album mix).
Well, quite frankly, I believe the Single mix is quite superior in its delivery.
I have the 45-single, thankfully.
Also, I would not have purchased Gold-cd were it not for the Single mix of Solitaire.
What was the "trouble" ?
What was the "expense" ?
Why does he not hear this astounding difference?
goodjeans
Well-Known Member
...I hitchhiked from school to buy this album, but I was waiting for it. Harry 'nails' it with the John Q. Public comment.This stunning album cover showed Karen and Richard in a more sophisticated framework. The public may not have recognized them. Thank you.
BarryT60
Well-Known Member
My market had the sticker on the top left as illustrated in Newville Fan's picture above... And after purchase, I checked every Record Bar, K-Mart, Zayre, and Big K - (to be sure they were all front and center whenever possible), and every album I saw in every store had the logo sticker. And truth be told - somewhere deep in my archives, I am betting I still have that darn sticker!Note also that every CD version that I've run into is exactly the way it was on my original LP - no name, no logo, no title, just the picture.
I believe that in other territories, and perhaps later pressings, was where the logo and title found their way to the front.
And yes, for sure there was a sticker on the front identifying the album, but stickers are not as effective as a main title/logo printed on a cover.
I'm not saying that this was THE cause of the lower sales total, but it may have been one of the many factors that led to a poorer showing in the charts. The singles timing, the competition, the natural downturn in careers, the lesser number of tracks, and the vague cover could have all contributed.
Harry
Re Desperado, I truly believe it could have been a bigger hit than Solitaire - even though I wrote the Fan club begging for Solitaire to be the next single. I loved them both - but in retrospect, the beat is more consistent on Desperado, for a slow dance, or for the listener to grab hold of the tune on "radio".... Solitaire's whole first verse has no drums, and the second verse is almost as quiet as the first... The money in that song is in the chorus - where I felt everything came together...
With the notoriety of Desperado, yet no hit single, it probably would have been picked up by more stations earlier - propelling it to a faster climb and more successful conclusion.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Trivia:
The Horizon music book which was published by Almo, 1975,
was unable to include Desperado or Solitaire due to copyright restrictions.
(Substituting Rainy Days and Mondays along with We've Only Just Begun instead.)
Also, none of the 1975 Fan Club Newsletters mention the single release of Solitaire.
(Someone might want to re-read them and double-check my statement, though.)
The Album Solitaire (King Records, 1975, GXI-9001, 12 song comp.) has Solitaire and
Please Mr. Postman, neither is a single mix, although the Later song is not a carbon copy of
the Horizon mix, either (it is a tad faster).
Desperado and Only Yesterday are on this LP,also.
The Horizon music book which was published by Almo, 1975,
was unable to include Desperado or Solitaire due to copyright restrictions.
(Substituting Rainy Days and Mondays along with We've Only Just Begun instead.)
Also, none of the 1975 Fan Club Newsletters mention the single release of Solitaire.
(Someone might want to re-read them and double-check my statement, though.)
The Album Solitaire (King Records, 1975, GXI-9001, 12 song comp.) has Solitaire and
Please Mr. Postman, neither is a single mix, although the Later song is not a carbon copy of
the Horizon mix, either (it is a tad faster).
Desperado and Only Yesterday are on this LP,also.
Similar discussions
