⭐ Official Review [Album] "KAREN CARPENTER" (SP-4804/CD-0588)

HOW WOULD YOU RATE THIS ALBUM?

  • ***** (BEST)

    Votes: 9 17.3%
  • ****

    Votes: 13 25.0%
  • ***

    Votes: 19 36.5%
  • **

    Votes: 9 17.3%
  • *

    Votes: 2 3.8%

  • Total voters
    52
Status
Not open for further replies.
I'd also consider the change of ownership of A&M as a factor. PolyGram acquired the label in 89-90, right? They immediately set about releasing tons of compilations and back catalog from a lot of the artists that they had control over. The US got FROM THE TOP, Japan and other parts of the world got all sorts of GOLD SERIES discs, the UK got an ONLY YESTERDAY compilation and box set and Richard did his flurry of remixing tracks for various comps., etc., all in an effort to make money for the new label to help pay for the acquisition.

I can easily see a few years going by and someone on a board somewhere saying, "Hey, why don't we release those old Karen Carpenter tracks? The fans want 'em, and we've got 'em." That would have then prompted getting in touch with Richard and Phil Ramone and getting them to agree that enough time had passed to put out the album the way Karen had approved it.

It's a possible scenario - but I wasn't there, so who knows?

Harry
 
I thought Richard controlled the catalog at that point. In other words, final veto power. If he truly disliked that album, he would have fought tooth and nail to leave it mothballed.

I hate to say it, but it seemed to me like his original comments were made more out of jealousy, and/or the fear of losing what was essentially his meal ticket. With no new product available to release, it was only natural that her solo album be released as stop-gap product to keep interest up, and also quiet the restless fans who knew about its existence. In retrospect it was actually a thoughtful release, especially since it was released as originally produced. In reality, Richard theoretically could have remixed and re-recorded quite a bit and stamped that album with his signature, as he did for the handful of solo tracks on that Lovelines album.

And of course, the record label would release nearly anything he offered to them... they $ee $ale$ a mile away.
 
Perhaps a bit more of the New York Times Article from October 6, 1996:

''THIS WASN'T JUST AN ALBUM,'' SAYS FRENDA Franklin, who was Karen's best friend. ''It was her Emancipation Proclamation.''
-----
"When Karen told him she wasn't interested in remaining idle, he considered it practically an act of treason, especially when she asked for his blessing."
-----
'There wasn't one part of this album that she wasn't involved in, when she didn't have the reins.' (Phil Ramone)
-----
''She told me that working on this album was the happiest time in her life.'' (Frenda Franklin)
-----
"Ramone remembers that Karen looked good during the early sessions."
-----
"She had spent the standard $100,000 allotted by the record company, plus almost half a million of her own money. As her anorexia intensified, she became too weak to travel, and so Ramone had to fly to Los Angeles to complete production. "
------
"They finally finished in January 1980, delivering 11 of the 21 songs they recorded. Karen chose the white-sweatshirt shot for the cover, and Olivia Newton-John invited Karen to sing on her latest TV special. All that was left was the routine playback for the label presidents."
------
"Alpert remembers liking the album but not loving it. ''It just didn't ring my bell the way a Carpenters album would,'' he says between heavy pauses."
-----
' ''Karen Carpenter'' ends up a cherished souvenir from the collection of a woman who was never allowed more than a vacation from her own image.'

Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/06/magazine/karen-carpenter-s-second-life.html?src=pm&pagewanted=1
 
I think Herb Alpert will never fully disclose all of the reasons for shelving Karen Carpenter's solo album. I get the feeling that we haven't been told all the facts. It doesn't make sense to cancel a project after spending so much time and money. This album was an experiment, a risk, and a gamble, the optimism was gone, and we know who paid the price for playing it safe.
 
Doesn't he retain this veto power to this day? I'm sure this was carried forward ad infinitum while he is still alive, whatever the label changes.

But does he control the catalog of Karen Carpenter solo? Technically Richard was not involved in her project, was there a clause somewhere in her body of work that said if she passed away all rights to any music she made (with Richard or without Richard) became the rights of Richard to make final decisions? I would think somehow Phil Ramone had to have some connection to her solo catalog. It's confusing!!!
 
The Larry King Radio Show is the first time I have ever heard him say in an interview that "I have heard it and of course it is very good". That to me almost sounds like he likes it enough to have warranted it's release had Karen been ok with it, which doesn't make sense to me. The Coleman Book says just the opposite that he thought she stole the Carpenters sound. I never thought that Richard thought it was very good.
 
Also, from Coleman, page 276:
Richard Carpenter says:
"...although,the album was a technical success, it lacked gut appeal.
"It was extremely well done. It was produced well.
Of course, she sings well, with very intricate arrangements,all very well executed."
"But, I had three complaints:
One, they went and took the Carpenters' overdub sound, whereas it should have been different with her.
Two, Phil at times had her singing beyond her comfortable range, too high.
Three, it did not have strong enough material."

 
"But, I had three complaints:
One, they went and took the Carpenters' overdub sound, whereas it should have been different with her.

I will never get my head round this one. What did he expect Karen to do? Bring in a load of session singers to build up the backing vocal sound, when she was perfectly capable of doing all this herself? Her voice was predominantly the Carpenters' vocal sound - there's no getting away from it.
 
I will never get my head round this one. What did he expect Karen to do? Bring in a load of session singers to build up the backing vocal sound, when she was perfectly capable of doing all this herself? Her voice was predominantly the Carpenters' vocal sound - there's no getting away from it.

Absolutely. In a sense she was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. If she'd have stuck to the sound that Carpenters releases at the time were doing, she'd have been criticised for producing an ersatz version and not branching out, but if she did something different, she'd be accused (as indeed she was) of making music unsuited to her voice and straying too far from what was appropriate for her 'image'.

I don't agree with Richard's criticism that she 'stole the Carpenters sound'. For a start, that 'sound' was largely made by her and was as much hers to use as it was Richard's and, more importantly, while overdubs are used on some of the backing vocals on the solo tracks, they produce a result that sounds quite different from that on any Carpenters record.

Chris, perhaps Richard was just being polite on the Larry King interview re the solo album. Pretty much every other interview he's ever given on the subject makes it clear that he doesn't like it.
 
I will never get my head round this one. What did he expect Karen to do? Bring in a load of session singers to build up the backing vocal sound, when she was perfectly capable of doing all this herself? Her voice was predominantly the Carpenters' vocal sound - there's no getting away from it.

I've always perceived Richard's reaction to mean simply, that all the multi-harmony overdubbing stuff - whereas people were doing it, wasn't something that was "standard" or as common at the time. I mean, if you listen to the people that Karen was influenced by (Olivia, Donna Summer, etc) they weren't all doing the 4 and 5 part layered harmonies. Not to say that they weren't doing any harmony at all, but 2-part and occasional 3-part is a much different approach and sound. What Karen did on her solo project was a sound that was semi-unique to Carpenters (a few others as well) - and yes I understand that these were Temperton arrangements, but I really don't believe that Karen would have ended up opting for this kind of style harmonically or musically had Richard never, ever been a part of Karen's life - just in general. She was introduced to it and learned it because of Richard. She certainly didn't write and arrange her own parts, nor do I believe she ever had the ability to with all due respect. She learned it and became comfortable with it, and stuck with it. I could be entirely wrong about this, but it's at least a reasonable argument.
 
Fascinating explorations!
I enjoy reading the penetrating posts!
Forgive me all, but I rather assumed that Richard Carpenter acquired his knowledge of their overdubbing style by
listening to, and emulating, Les Paul and Mary Ford's overdubbing techniques.
And, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Oddly enough, I listened to Rod Temperton's 'Heatwave' LP a few days ago, this album from 1975/1976 (UK/US).
And, no way was Rod Temperton usurping anyone, the man is brilliant in his own way.
And, with all due respect to everyone's opinion: I believe Karen Carpenter was talented enough musically to do
anything.(inclusive of composing/arranging). She was simply never encouraged or nurtured in other directions.
(And, after all, she was ultimately discouraged from her beloved drums!--a natural metronome, ass Richard says).
The family (A&M/Carpenter) did not want, or need, another '' Arranger/ Composer" , those shoes were already filled.
 
I've always perceived Richard's reaction to mean simply, that all the multi-harmony overdubbing stuff - whereas people were doing it, wasn't something that was "standard" or as common at the time. I mean, if you listen to the people that Karen was influenced by (Olivia, Donna Summer, etc) they weren't all doing the 4 and 5 part layered harmonies. Not to say that they weren't doing any harmony at all, but 2-part and occasional 3-part is a much different approach and sound. What Karen did on her solo project was a sound that was semi-unique to Carpenters (a few others as well) - and yes I understand that these were Temperton arrangements, but I really don't believe that Karen would have ended up opting for this kind of style harmonically or musically had Richard never, ever been a part of Karen's life - just in general. She was introduced to it and learned it because of Richard. She certainly didn't write and arrange her own parts, nor do I believe she ever had the ability to with all due respect. She learned it and became comfortable with it, and stuck with it. I could be entirely wrong about this, but it's at least a reasonable argument.

The vocal arranging style on the album was a style Rod Temperton had been using for years in Heatwave. He used Karen like he used Johnny Wilder. Listen to their stuff and listen to her solo record. Same approach.

Ed
 
The vocal arranging style on the album was a style Rod Temperton had been using for years in Heatwave. He used Karen like he used Johnny Wilder. Listen to their stuff and listen to her solo record. Same approach.

Absolutely! Which is why I said there were a few others as well. My point was, Karen may not have ever taken that approach had 4-part, close harmony (which requires a unique skill to even be able to master correctly) not been introduced to her by Richard and made comfortable for her to sing - regardless of who wrote the arrangement, since she'd already been doing it for years. :)
 
I have been viewing the All American College Show, wherein the Richard Carpenter Trio performs
"Dancing in the Street", no overdubbing on this track, though.
But, the performance sparkles through and through.
Karen, her vocals ---and, concurrent drumming--- are awesome.
Richard goes to town, too, on keyboards.
My query: At what juncture did Richard Carpenter make the decision to feature overdubbing ?
Overdubbing is prominent on the 1966 "Looking For Love/Parting of Our Ways",
but not featured in the 1968 performance.
And, Richard Carpenter does cite Beach Boys and Les Paul/Mary Ford as influences.
Notice, also, in (some) later Carpenters' records--more choral sounds and less Karen/Richard overdubbing.
In fact, the later 1970's Carpenters' songs are distinctly different--in manner/technique of background vocals--
than the Early 1975 period. ("Only Yesterday" appears to be somewhat of a demarcation line, in that respect).
Page 329 of Coleman, virtually dismisses the Lovelines album, on the basis of the solo songs.
And, not one word in the Index of the Biography relegated to the song, "If I Had You".
Now, Schmidt, Page 204, has Bob James saying: "I wanted to give her something different and challenging."
and, "Karen had conveyed to Richard the vocal challenges she faced when...singing...the arrangements."
Thus, Richard was fully aware of the 'vocal' acrobatics which Karen was undertaking on this album.
(We know she called him specifically about the song, "If I Had You".)
Did he speak up, then?
Did he express his dismay,at that time, while she was recording those songs?
Why, again, did everyone wait until half- a- million dollars was down-the-toilet to express their dismay?
 
My query: At what juncture did Richard Carpenter make the decision to feature overdubbing ? Overdubbing is prominent on the 1966 "Looking For Love/Parting of Our Ways"

On the 1966 KC Magic Lamp single, their layered overdub sound wasn't yet born - that was Karen doing usually just a single harmony with herself. Their true overdubbed sound was born during the Spectrum recordings and once that was disbanded, he decided to feature just himself and Karen doing all the overdubs.

Page 329 of Coleman, virtually dismisses the Lovelines album, on the basis of the solo songs.
And, not one word in the Index of the Biography relegated to the song, "If I Had You".
Now, Schmidt, Page 204, has Bob James saying: "I wanted to give her something different and challenging."
and, "Karen had conveyed to Richard the vocal challenges she faced when...singing...the arrangements."
Thus, Richard was fully aware of the 'vocal' acrobatics which Karen was undertaking on this album.
(We know she called him specifically about the song, "If I Had You".)
Did he speak up, then?
Did he express his dismay,at that time, while she was recording those songs?
Why, again, did everyone wait until half- a- million dollars was down-the-toilet to express their dismay?

Richard is quoted on the Lovelines album liner notes as saying that Karen called him excitedly from NYC to relay how much effort had gone into the backing vocals for this song alone. He then says "as the listener can hear, it was worth it". I think that's about the best admission we'll get from him that he thought the song had commercial potential.
 
Last edited:
Insights galore! Thanks!
So, in one way Karen Carpenter came full-circle:
harmonizing with herself in 1966 on that first Magic Lamp 45-single,
and ,then,in 1979 harmonizing with herself on her solo album!
I did read (40th Liner Notes) where Richard places creation of the "Carpenters sound" as mid-1968.
 
Yeah, Richard has gone on record as saying "If I Had You" is the best thing on her solo record. I actually prefer his mix for the cold ending. Very inventive! It also uses better vocal takes (no whispery first lines) and less bass movement.

Ed
 
Absolutely! Which is why I said there were a few others as well. My point was, Karen may not have ever taken that approach had 4-part, close harmony (which requires a unique skill to even be able to master correctly) not been introduced to her by Richard and made comfortable for her to sing - regardless of who wrote the arrangement, since she'd already been doing it for years. :)

Rod always did that sort of thing. He woukd clearly have worked this way regardless. Of course, this was her record but he was likely doing what came naturally. If anything, Carpenters' recordings merely indicated to him that she'd be able to pull it off.

Also with noting is that Rod's arrangements aren't just four voices. They're jazz-based so there's some polychording going on there that Richard didn't use.

Ed
 
Composer Steve Dorff, as I am certain everyone knows, wrote "I Just Fall In Love Again".
Astounding, the difference between the above and "If I Had You".
Also, he has collaborated with John Bettis: "There's a magic one gets in a long standing collaboration.
I have had several that have been magic. My work with John (Bettis) stands right up there
."
(see: Billboard, August 30, 1997, page 38).
Steve Dorff's webpage has photos of him, John Bettis and Richard Carpenter.
I'd be interested to hear Steve's original demo of the song--and compare with Karen Carpenter's solo offering.
Rod Temperton, Bob James, Phil Ramone and the Band members deserve thanks, too,
for tackling the solo project with Karen Carpenter.
The album--had it been released--- would have made my 1980 memorable!
 
I was just listening to the Larry King radio show from 1987 and a caller asked Richard if he would ever release Karen's solo album. Richard said no. He said it was almost completed but Karen was just not happy and decided to shelve it, he said, I have heard it and of course it is very good but A&M never wished to release it and I will not let it out.

Interesting discussion 9 years before it finally came out....I still wonder what made them release it 9 years later, what changed in 96 it couldn't have been that A&M thought it was going to be a money maker, the material was dated back to 1980 surely they knew that, A&M was not in the business to appease the fan base, so something changed and it couldn't have been about the money. So if Richard was respecting Karen's wishes to not release it all these years, then A&M over rode that respect and convinced Richard to release it? or Richard was in charge and told A&M let's release it. I guess it doesn't matter since we have it but it still makes you wonder what changed, especially after hearing this radio program.
The decision to release Karen's album-and in it's original form-was made by A&M.

Back in 1987,A&M was still owned & managed by the original label chiefs that declined Karen's album in 1980(Herb Alpert,Jerry Moss,Gil Friesen).By 1990,Polygram took over A&M-and had new label chiefs by 1993.This was the catalyst that led to Karen's album finally coming out.If A&M's sale to Polygram never took place,Karen's album would've most likely stayed in the vaults(as Richard stated above "A&M never wished to release it").
 
I thought Richard controlled the catalog at that point. In other words, final veto power. If he truly disliked that album, he would have fought tooth and nail to leave it mothballed.

I hate to say it, but it seemed to me like his original comments were made more out of jealousy, and/or the fear of losing what was essentially his meal ticket. With no new product available to release, it was only natural that her solo album be released as stop-gap product to keep interest up, and also quiet the restless fans who knew about its existence. In retrospect it was actually a thoughtful release, especially since it was released as originally produced. In reality, Richard theoretically could have remixed and re-recorded quite a bit and stamped that album with his signature, as he did for the handful of solo tracks on that Lovelines album.

And of course, the record label would release nearly anything he offered to them... they $ee $ale$ a mile away.


I expounded on the details of this situation in my posts on pages 16 and 24 of this thread,and also on page 1 of the Colin Carpenter thread.
 
1989: Saw renewed interest in Carpenters' catalog after airing of the television movie, Lovelines released as 20th Anniversary Celebration.
1994: Saw releases of tribute album along with renewed interest in Carpenters' catalog.
Press Release from A&M, at the time, points to tribute album as catalyst for Karen Carpenter release.
1994: Saw release of Interpretations 25th Anniversary Celebration and more than one printing of the Coleman Biography.
1996: Saw renewed interest, subsequently 22 hits was a monster hit among Japanese (Jan 10 issue of Billboard).
Is it fair to say that none of those projects would have come to fruition had A&M not been sold?
News reports at the time of sale, paint a rather dismal performance ongoing at A&M Records. That sale to Polygram was virtually inevitable.
Details of A&M's financial status, from 1979 onward, are detailed in one of my previous posts ,taken from the new book (November 2014):
Top 40 Democracy: The Rival Mainstreams of American Music.
If one takes note that nearly half (or, more) of the hit singles of Carpenters had either the A or B-side as Richard Carpenter compositions
(e.g. : Touch Me When We're Dancing/Because We Are In Love, Merry Christmas,Darling/Mr.Guder, etc.) then one begins to
see that this was "doing business" to make money. If a single sells well (the A-side),then the flip-side is 'along for the ride'----more royalties.

Polygram, also, had been distributor for A&M in Asia for many years previous to this sale (see Billboard Magazine).
Polygram's Market Share was (usually, more than) three times that of A&M's market share.(ibid.)
No way was Karen Carpenter going to remain in the vaults, sale or no sale.
If the heads of power at A&M saw 'fit' to release "Time", there is no musical justification to keep Karen Carpenter locked away.
Forgive me this outburst, but, there is no logical justification to conclude that Polygram's purchase was the sole catalyst for the release.




 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom