Album Sequencing

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newvillefan

I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I have often thought about this and whether album track sequencing makes a lot of difference to the success of a record and who makes those decisions when it comes to finally releasing a finished album. I guess it was especially important in the days of vinyl, where the last track of side A was probably supposed to leave you clamouring to turn the LP over and see what was in store on side B. I found this interesting article on the subject and there are varying theories, which range from 'it's an absolute science' to 'it makes no difference'. Another article goes a step further to list 10 albums where it's felt the sequencing is lost on CD. Nowadays in the era of CD and downloads, you can shuffle to your heart's content or simply download one desired track from an album you might not be interested in buying as a whole.

Anyway, that got me to thinking - if it had been your job to sequence a finished Carpenters album (assuming you only have the songs available that were on the actual records released), what would you change in the running order and why? Any glaring errors you think the duo made with their album sequencing over the years? :)
 
I had heard many years ago that on vinyl usually the first song on side two was one of the strongest. Don't know if that is true. Maybe I should take a look at some of my vinyl and see if it seems correct.
 
On Now & Then, I would have opened with Masquerade, then I Can't Make Music and then the others, moving Sing to the end of Side One.
 
This is an interesting topic. It plays more into the LP format for sure, the Carpenters albums are a great example of track sequencing. I consider Christmas Portrait to be an example of "perfect track sequencing", it just fits together like a glove. An Old Fashioned Christmas tries but fails in my opinion. The bookends on Horizon is another perfect example of sequencing that just works...it's like starting the album on side a and when it finishes on b it just feels complete, however where Horizon fails is the use of too many ballads running into each other. I also love how VOTH ends with Look To Your Dreams. It's also funny how alot of the track sequencing on the albums carried their way into the live concerts and tv specials.

Yesterday Once More should have started as track #1 on Now and Then as it's the main theme and it ends appropriately with the same reprise, Sing was the wrong choice as the first track.
 
"It's also funny how alot of the track sequencing on the albums carried their way into the live concerts and tv specials."

My bet is this is due to Richard's brilliant ears and thinking through each project in such detail.
 
Yesterday Once More should have started as track #1 on Now and Then as it's the main theme and it ends appropriately with the same reprise, Sing was the wrong choice as the first track.


I'd never thought about this one before, but you're right. It would have made for a similar overall listening experience to 'A Song For You' with its similar bookends. 'Sing' is far too banal to be an album opener.

I think they got it right most of the time, but one which always sticks out for me is 'Close To You'. They closed side A with the title track, when I think it should have been the opening track of side B. Much in the same way as they had 'Rainy Days' and 'Superstar' as the lead tracks on each side of the Tan album.
 
I'd never thought about this one before, but you're right. It would have made for a similar overall listening experience to 'A Song For You' with its similar bookends. 'Sing' is far too banal to be an album opener.

I think they got it right most of the time, but one which always sticks out for me is 'Close To You'. They closed side A with the title track, when I think it should have been the opening track of side B. Much in the same way as they had 'Rainy Days' and 'Superstar' as the lead tracks on each side of the Tan album.

The thing about "Yesterday Once More" is that it's supposed to lead into the Oldies Medley. There are a bunch of compilations where that Side Two is repeated exactly. Since the album was called NOW AND THEN, the two sides are "NOW" and "THEN", with the newer songs on the first side and the oldies stuff - and the oldies "theme" bookending - on the second.

As for "(They Long To Be) Close To You" finishing up side one of CLOSE TO YOU, I thought that was brilliant placement. It was *the* familiar song when the album was released, so as you stood there in the record store and looked at the track list, you could see both the new song "We've Only Just Begun" leading off Side One, and the former number one song as the closer to the side. With two Bacharach songs clustered at the start of Side Two, you just knew you were in for a treat there.

Then, upon arriving home with your new album, you placed your tone-arm onto the start and listened in amazement as Side One progressed. Some of the songs led right into each other, and then came the familiar "(They Long To Be) Close To You" as the satisfactory closer to this amazing side of wonderful music. But wait! What's this? The song is going on longer than the one on the radio! That trailing piano is different. What neat ending! Thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, waaaah...close to you... And the goosebumps rise as the song does a new extended ending. What a way to end an album side! Bring on Side Two! We're ready for more Bacharach!

That's the way I felt on that day in 1970 when I brought home the CLOSE TO YOU album - and it's still perfect to this day, even if you don't have to flip the record.

Harry
 
The thing about "Yesterday Once More" is that it's supposed to lead into the Oldies Medley. There are a bunch of compilations where that Side Two is repeated exactly. Since the album was called NOW AND THEN, the two sides are "NOW" and "THEN", with the newer songs on the first side and the oldies stuff - and the oldies "theme" bookending - on the second.

I guess the reason I said that was because I always considered Yesterday Once More as a brand new song, yes it has an oldies flavor, I never considered it to be an oldies song at least not like the rest of the songs that are played sequencing after. All the songs after YOM to me are true oldies songs being sung through the ages by many. What I do like is how the lyrics to YOM lead you into all the true oldies songs that follow. "When I was young I'd listen to the radio" then we have all those oldies songs everyone is familar. However YOM to me has never been an oldies song, it's a classic song that sounds as fresh today as it did when it aired. It brings on an oldies feeling to the listener of times gone by....but the song itself was brand new so was it really a "Then"? So that is why I felt it should have appeared on side 1.
 
As for "(They Long To Be) Close To You" finishing up side one of CLOSE TO YOU, I thought that was brilliant placement. It was *the* familiar song when the album was released, so as you stood there in the record store and looked at the track list, you could see both the new song "We've Only Just Begun" leading off Side One, and the former number one song as the closer to the side. With two Bacharach songs clustered at the start of Side Two, you just knew you were in for a treat there.

Then, upon arriving home with your new album, you placed your tone-arm onto the start and listened in amazement as Side One progressed. Some of the songs led right into each other, and then came the familiar "(They Long To Be) Close To You" as the satisfactory closer to this amazing side of wonderful music. But wait! What's this? The song is going on longer than the one on the radio! That trailing piano is different. What neat ending! Thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, waaaah...close to you... And the goosebumps rise as the song does a new extended ending. What a way to end an album side! Bring on Side Two! We're ready for more Bacharach!

That's the way I felt on that day in 1970 when I brought home the CLOSE TO YOU album - and it's still perfect to this day, even if you don't have to flip the record.

Harry

Couldn't agree more - I used to sit through the whole song waiting for that fake ending. A great way to end an LP side....
 
I, too, thought Close To You was a really well-sequenced album. One of my favorite things about the early Carpenters albums was how songs would often segue from one to the next, and have little unusual touches like the fake ending on "Close To You," or the "Intermission" track on A Song For You, or the bookended "Yesterday Once More" medley, or the opening/closing tracks on Offering...all the things that made Carpenters records more than just a grouping of songs. One of my favorite features of the Horizon LP was the opening and closing instrumentals, even if that album wasn't quite as "fun" as the previous records.

I agree that "Sing" was a weak opening for Now And Then but none of the other songs on side 1 of that record sound like an opening song to me. "Yesterday Once More" would be a great opener, but you wouldn't want to have the oldies medley taking up all of Side 1. "This Masquerade" is too moody, "Jamabalaya" would set the wrong tone for the album, "Heather" is too sad-sounding, and "I Can't Make Music"....well it doesn't have that opening-tune vibe either, plus that title would just look bad at the top of the song list on the cover (even though it's a great song).

Many years ago George Burns did a TV special on HBO on which he said, "The key to a great show is a great opening song, and I think I've got a good one here...." before going into some comedy tune. The whole show had the running theme of him searching for a great opening song.
 
Albums are not only sequenced for artistic reasons. There are also technical considerations. With vinyl, you're good for about 22 minutes a side, though a little less is even better. If the mastering engineer tries to add more than that, he or she has to degrade the signal to make it all for. Low end has to be decreased because bass takes up the most room.

When it comes to track selection, the mastering engineer has to keep the lowest-level tracks for the end if possible. There is less room for the grooves and the sound degrades. That's why we generally don't hear fast and loud stuff at the end of a side. Keeping ballads for the end of each side is a way to ensure the sonic integrity of an album.

Ed
 
^^Interesting info Ed, I didn't know there was so much consideration about how to place the songs on an LP with regard to bass and sound levels being first or last on the grooves. I never really thought about this on the Carpenters LP's and for any artist with LP's for that matter.
 
Another factor is the key of the songs that are back to back. I don't remember all the psychology behind it, but a choir director once explained to me how important it is when deciding the running order for a concert to not have two songs in the same key back to back. Even with a break between songs, it can seem to the listener that it's just one big, long song and they can easily become bored or lose interest without even realizing it. I guess it's a subconscious thing, but supposedly it can impact the audience's enjoyment of the show.
 
I agree with that .... a few times I've put two songs in the same key together on a compilation and it just sounds weird or off somehow.
 
I agree with that .... a few times I've put two songs in the same key together on a compilation and it just sounds weird or off somehow.


Richard did it a couple of times on compilations through the years. On the 'Yesterday Once More' compilation in the 80s, he segued 'For All We Know' with 'Touch Me When We're Dancing' but in that instance it worked beautifully.
 
I don't know why "Touch Me When We're Dancing" is the second song from Made In America on Side 2...!

I could easily put this in my Thread of 'Albums That Sound Better When Side 2 Is Played First', but each side ends w/ the right songs: "Because We Are in Love (The Wedding Song)", ending Side 2, and "Somebody's Been Lying" ending Side 1, though not as well as "When You've Got What It Takes" could have...

I've never had this on CD, but here would be my ideal playing order:

1. Those Good Old Dreams

2. Touch Me When We're Dancing

3. Strength of a Woman

4. (Want You) Back In My Life Again

5. When You've Got What It Takes

6. BE-echwood 4-5789

7. I Believe You

8. Somebody's Been Lying

9. When It's Gone

10. Because We Are in Love (The Wedding Song)



-- Dave
 
When I first started getting into the Carpenters, I bought the tapes before I bought the CDs. I'm not sure if the CDs follow the LP song order, but the tapes are definitely different. Now I'm sure I'm biased as I heard the albums this way first, but I prefer the order of songs on the tape to that of the CDs. I even reordered the tracks in my digital library to follow that of the tapes. It's been a while, but I remember feeling that the tan album flowed better to my ears.

*Edit: I just checked. I definitely like the order of N&T, CTY, and Carpenters on tape better.
 
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Hey BGW, since a lot of us never got into cassette tapes, would it be possible for you to list the sequences of albums that differ? You could do it here, or in the Official Review threads for each album as a reference for future generations!

Harry
 
I actually don't have any cassettes, I was referencing my open reel tapes. Sorry to be ambiguous. However, as far as I know, the cassettes follow the same order. No clue about 8 track cartridges, sorry.

*Oh, that's also not a typo. Flat Baroque really does appear on both sides of the tape, bumping the total number of tracks to 14.


Close To You (CD/LP)
1. We've Only Just Begun
2. Love is Surrender
3. Maybe it's You
4. Reason to Believe
5. Help
6. Close to You
7. Baby it's You
8. I'll Never Fall in Love Again
9. Crescent Noon
10. Mr. Guder
11. I Kept on Loving You
12. Another Song

Close To You (Reel & Cassette Tape)
1. We've Only Just Begun
2. Mr. Guder
3. I Kept on Loving You
4. Reason to Believe
5. Help
6. Close to You
--Side Two--
7. Baby it's You
8. Love is Surrender
9. Maybe it's You
10. I'll Never Fall in Love Again
11. Crescent Noon
12. Another Song

Carpenters (CD/LP)
1. Rainy Days and Mondays
2. Saturday
3. Let Me Be the One
4. Hideaway
5. For All We Know
6. Superstar
7. Druscilla Penney
8. One Love
9. Bacharach/David Medley
10. Sometimes

Carpenters (Tape)
1. Rainy Days and Mondays
2. Hideaway
3. Bacharach/David Medley
4. Sometimes
--Side Two--
5. Superstar
6. Druscilla Penney
7. One Love
8. Saturday
9. Let Me Be the One
10. For All We Know

A Song For You (CD/LP)
1. A Song For You
2. Top of the World
3. Hurting Each Other
4. It's Going to Take Some Time
5. Goodbye to Love
6. Intermission
7. Bless the Beasts and Children
8. Flat Baroque
9. Piano Picker
10. I Won't Last a Day Without You
11. Crystal Lullaby
12. Road Ode
13. A Song For You (Reprise)

A Song For You (Tape)
1. A Song For You
2. Top of the World
3. Piano Picker
4. Flat Baroque
5. I Won't Last a Day Without You
6. Goodbye to Love
7. Intermission
--Side Two--
8. Hurting Each Other
9. Crystal Lullaby
10. It's Going to Take Some Time
11. Bless the Beasts and Children
12. Flat Baroque
13. Road Ode
14. A Song For You (Reprise)


Now & Then and Greatest Hits 69-73 are both in the same order no matter the medium. I'll check on Horizon and Passage later. Not sure about Offering/Ticket.

This is an interesting thread, definitely food for thought. Thanks for starting it!


Peter
 
Speaking of sequencing, I had written Richard once and he didn't fully answer my question... But I wanted to know - HAD he put Tryin' To Get The Feeling on Horizon, where would it have fallen in the pecking order...

Any suggestions?

I might have it as the first song on side two - leading into Solitaire - or the last song on the set - just prior to Eventide....

What a knock-out song that is... Hard to believe they had something so powerful and it wasn't included... Plus - even though they say this was recorded for Horizon, I feel Karen is in more of a Passage vibe on the vocals... Very intriguing....
 
Speaking from an artistic stance, album sequencing is VERY important. The 'bookend' theme that the Carpenters used was no accident; it's all been very carefully thought through. Albums should have a natural progression and they were often made that way. CDs came along with a shuffle button and ruined all that ... now with downloads it's even worse. That's why I HATE compilations ... the tracks are often taken from all different time periods and don't fit together; unless the musicians themselves are involved there's no real art to this. Graphic artists have also lost out ... they've had to go from 12" design, to CD size, now to a tiny itunes icon. Sad really.
 
Speaking of sequencing, I had written Richard once and he didn't fully answer my question... But I wanted to know - HAD he put Tryin' To Get The Feeling on Horizon, where would it have fallen in the pecking order...

I would have removed one of the two ballads (probably 'Love Me For What I Am') and put it second to last, right before 'Eventide'. The ending of the song has a very wistful, sad, longing quality about it which would have brought the album to a close really nicely.
 
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