Bruce Forsyth Show and Karen

[newvillefan]

Richard said this kind of thing was part of Karen's humor always. In fact, he was telling me at one point a few weeks ago about how Karen and her girlfriends (when she was younger) would pretend to be other people, alter egos of themselves and get silly.

The late comedian Marty Allen used “hello dere” as his opening greeting back then. May be where Karen got this.

 

[Another Son]

she was stellar, but with all of the prerecording done prior to her tv appearance are we absolutely sure she wasn't miming to a track earlier recorded.

Don't shoot me..I'm just asking.

Hi Ullalume. I think Musicians' Union rules at that time required that groups re-record with new backing tracks before appearing on British TV, with union members advised to perform live vocals. (Not 100 percent sure, though).

 

[newvillefan]

I think Musicians' Union rules at that time required that groups re-record with new backing tracks before appearing on British TV, with union members advised to perform live vocals. (Not 100 percent sure, though).

There was a rule at the time that a visiting act could not perform without the input of UK musicians on any backing track used for TV appearances, in accordance with British Musician Union rules introduced in the 1960s about performing pre-recorded music on TV. Although you could argue this protected the income for UK studio musicians, it really was an insane decision, and meant that acts often had to resort to re-recording an entire backing track just to perform it on UK TV, with UK musicians, in their own time and at their own cost. What viewers often heard was barely recognisable compared to the recorded version they were familiar with.

ABBA - who relied on their polished “wall of sound” for their mimed TV appearances - famously got around this rule when they appeared on the Mike Yarwood Christmas show, also in December 1978. To make it appear that they had recorded a new backing track since arriving in the UK, they simply removed certain elements of the tracks they performed and remixed other parts. In this particular clip, the lengthy intro was removed, the track remixed and the sumptuous string arrangement completely removed. The TV executives fell for it hook, line and sinker.

 

[ullalume]

Hi Ullalume. I think Musicians' Union rules at that time required that groups re-record with new backing tracks before appearing on British TV, with union members advised to perform live vocals. (Not 100 percent sure, though).

Thanks for that.

 

[Greg]

What an utterly fabulous find!

Inn on the Park is part of the Four Seasons Hotel which is very close to where Richard stayed at The Dorchester when in London to record the RPO album.

Karen has such interesting handwriting, the flourishes and the embellishments are so pretty.

G

 

[tomswift2002]

It’s too bad Richard never arranged to release that version of “Please Mr. Postman” on CD.

 

[Cuyler]

There was a rule at the time that a visiting act could not perform without the input of UK musicians on any backing track used for TV appearances, in accordance with British Musician Union rules introduced in the 1960s about performing pre-recorded music on TV. Although you could argue this protected the income for UK studio musicians, it really was an insane decision, and meant that acts often had to resort to re-recording an entire backing track just to perform it on UK TV, with UK musicians, in their own time and at their own cost. What viewers often heard was barely recognisable compared to the recorded version they were familiar with.

ABBA - who relied on their polished “wall of sound” for their mimed TV appearances - famously got around this rule when they appeared on the Mike Yarwood Christmas show, also in December 1978. To make it appear that they had recorded a new backing track since arriving in the UK, they simply removed certain elements of the tracks they performed and remixed other parts. In this particular clip, the lengthy intro was removed, the track remixed and the sumptuous string arrangement completely removed. The TV executives fell for it hook, line and sinker.

I love this performance of "If It Wasn't for the Nights." Thanks for sharing this story

In particular, I love how this is a multi-camera setup but the fixture behind them has a different color in each camera. It makes you think that it's a single-camera setup with four takes, but you can see their movements are identical in all four shots.

 

[newvillefan]

In particular, I love how this is a multi-camera setup but the fixture behind them has a different color in each camera. It makes you think that it's a single-camera setup with four takes, but you can see their movements are identical in all four shots.

I’ve always wanted to know how they achieved that effect. It’s a one-take performance with a static red background but there are different colours behind each of them when they’re seen through the different cameras. Really cool for the time period.

 

[ullalume]

What an utterly fabulous find!

Inn on the Park is part of the Four Seasons Hotel which is very close to where Richard stayed at The Dorchester when in London to record the RPO album.

Karen has such interesting handwriting, the flourishes and the embellishments are so pretty.

G

It's postmarked 8.15 pm so she must have finished a hard day's recording, got back to the hotel gift shop bought a hotel postcard then quickly scribbled away and either posted it at the nearest post box or gave it to the concierge to post.

I'm hoping she then retired to her suite, sipped a glass of wine, or iced tea, looked out over the park and thought to herself, "helluva day....Good work kc."

 

[goodjeans]

It's postmarked 8.15 pm so she must have finished a hard day's recording, got back to the hotel gift shop bought a hotel postcard then quickly scribbled away and either posted it at the nearest post box or gave it to the concierge to post.

I'm hoping she then retired to her suite, sipped a glass of wine, or iced tea, looked out over the park and thought to herself, "helluva day....Good work kc."

I hope so too. Your post is really very sweet and kind.

 

[newvillefan]

Looking at this again, I wonder if Karen went to write “London” where she put “USA”. The beginning of the letter “U” looks like an “L” that she then changed. I still can’t believe this rarity actually still exists - and in mint condition.

Here’s a photo of the lobby of the Inn On The Park from the 1970s. Karen would have walked right through here during her visit:

Inn on the Park, Park Lane, London: the entrance hall at night

NOTES: The architect for Inn on the Park was Michael Rosenauer, with the interiors by Tom Lee Ltd. of the United States.

www.ribapix.com

When I searched for any images of the hotel as it was in 1978, this was the first one that came up. Elton John stayed there right around the same time and I think he stole Karen’s fur coat

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

^^It's stamped A Happy Christmas, something she also uses in the song from the show.
Very cool find thanks for sharing.

Not related but here is another postcard from Karen to her parents from 74.
Look at how she writes Mr. it's the same on both cards but the N in Newville she writes differently.

 

[Greg]

Well lets not forget both Richard and Karen were huge fans of Annabel's nightclub which is very close to the Four Seasons, Mayfair and Karen may well have popped out to Annabel's one evening during her stay. I also supsect Karen may have popped to Harrods (only 5 minutes in a cab) for an hour or two to grab some Christmas gifts and maybe browse the latest fashions. All pure conjecture, but not entirely implausible.

 

[ullalume]

Looking at this again, I wonder if Karen went to write “London” where she put “USA”. The beginning of the letter “U” looks like an “L” that she then changed. I still can’t believe this rarity actually still exists - and in mint condition.

Here’s a photo of the lobby of the Inn On The Park from the 1970s. Karen would have walked right through here during her visit:

Inn on the Park, Park Lane, London: the entrance hall at night

NOTES: The architect for Inn on the Park was Michael Rosenauer, with the interiors by Tom Lee Ltd. of the United States.

www.ribapix.com

When I searched for any images of the hotel as it was in 1978, this was the first one that came up. Elton John stayed there right around the same time and I think he stole Karen’s fur coat

Well lets not forget both Richard and Karen were huge fans of Annabel's nightclub which is very close to the Four Seasons, Mayfair and Karen may well have popped out to Annabel's one evening during her stay. I also supsect Karen may have popped to Harrods (only 5 minutes in a cab) for an hour or two to grab some Christmas gifts and maybe browse the latest fashions. All pure conjecture, but not entirely implausible.

Very possible. She saw Peter Knight and his wife when she was there. Maybe they went there for a meal at that very venue.

 

[kprather]

Not related but here is another postcard from Karen to her parents from 74.

Is that from 74 or 76? (Looking at the postmark)

 

[GDBY2LV]

Good catch.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Ha typo I meant 76

 

[TheOneBeatleManiac]

I’ve always wanted to know how they achieved that effect. It’s a one-take performance with a static red background but there are different colours behind each of them when they’re seen through the different cameras. Really cool for the time period.

All four cameras had a chroma key effect applied (which removes/replaces a specified color, usually green or blue as they're typically not on human people), and each one outputted a different color.
You can see before the song starts the original color of the background (blue, not red). That's also why the members are dressed in black.

 

[Cuyler]

All four cameras had a chroma key effect applied (which removes/replaces a specified color, usually green or blue as they're typically not on human people), and each one outputted a different color.
You can see before the song starts the original color of the background (blue, not red). That's also why the members are dressed in black.

I suspected as much. But I have to say, this chroma effect from 1978 blows even some chroma effects from the mid-1980s out of the water.

One thing I'm still a little confused by is the pulsing light effect. Some of the colors, like especially red and yellow, pulsate in sync. Green and blue have little moments of pulsation, but they're not to the same degree.

I also just noticed, at around 2:42-2:45, you can see that Anni-Frid's arm casts a shadow on the green backdrop and it looks very gray!

 

[TheOneBeatleManiac]

I suspected as much. But I have to say, this chroma effect from 1978 blows even some chroma effects from the mid-1980s out of the water.

One thing I'm still a little confused by is the pulsing light effect. Some of the colors, like especially red and yellow, pulsate in sync. Green and blue have little moments of pulsation, but they're not to the same degree.

I also just noticed, at around 2:42-2:45, you can see that Anni-Frid's arm casts a shadow on the green backdrop and it looks very gray!

Probably as those two colors are close to the original, they don't pulse as much. You can see a lot of shadows/grays on all four angles if you look carefully.

 

[tomswift2002]

All four cameras had a chroma key effect applied (which removes/replaces a specified color, usually green or blue as they're typically not on human people), and each one outputted a different color.
You can see before the song starts the original color of the background (blue, not red). That's also why the members are dressed in black.

I don’t think it’s chroma key. If you look just before the cut from Bruce, the blue lights up (and it just doesn’t pop in or fade in, like with chroma key, it comes on like how a fluorescent bulb or neon bulb) and clearly you have 2 seperate blue lines. It looks like they had some blue coloured fluorescent bulbs or neon lights near the floor and then the silver mirror pieces were reflecting. Plus in one of the later shots as the camera moves the blue lights move off the mirrored surfaces and you get the other lights reflecting. Don’t forget, but by Tony Peluso and the other regular Carpenters band members the floor is lit as a salmon pink and that gets reflected as well. So I think all we’re seeing is a simple trick of smoke & mirrors.

 

[Murray]

I don’t think it’s chroma key. If you look just before the cut from Bruce, the blue lights up (and it just doesn’t pop in or fade in, like with chroma key, it comes on like how a fluorescent bulb or neon bulb) and clearly you have 2 seperate blue lines. It looks like they had some blue coloured fluorescent bulbs or neon lights near the floor and then the silver mirror pieces were reflecting. Plus in one of the later shots as the camera moves the blue lights move off the mirrored surfaces and you get the other lights reflecting. Don’t forget, but by Tony Peluso and the other regular Carpenters band members the floor is lit as a salmon pink and that gets reflected as well. So I think all we’re seeing is a simple trick of smoke & mirrors.

The discussion was referring to the ABBA clip (post #28), not to Karen's appearance on the Bruce Forsyth Show.

 

[tomswift2002]

The discussion was referring to the ABBA clip (post #28), not to Karen's appearance on the Bruce Forsyth Show.

Ok. But still that one I think was still lights not green screen. A few times when the video has the 4 video feeds up at once, a number of times I noticed that they were not synchronized. In a close up someone would move their head one way, for example, but in one of the wide shots the movement was delayed by a second or two or they would move their head totally different. If all 4 camera’s were shooting at the same time, they would be capturing the exact same movement at the exact same time. Plus the flashes of white light that go through the color Ed light that occassionally appeared, just the way they went around the performers and they appeared on the screens, it looks like they might’ve shot the performance a couple of different times, and each time they just changed the lighting.

Also, even for 1970’s PAL composite video, it looks too clean to be chroma keyed.

 

[TheOneBeatleManiac]

Ok. But still that one I think was still lights not green screen. A few times when the video has the 4 video feeds up at once, a number of times I noticed that they were not synchronized. In a close up someone would move their head one way, for example, but in one of the wide shots the movement was delayed by a second or two or they would move their head totally different. If all 4 camera’s were shooting at the same time, they would be capturing the exact same movement at the exact same time. Plus the flashes of white light that go through the color Ed light that occassionally appeared, just the way they went around the performers and they appeared on the screens, it looks like they might’ve shot the performance a couple of different times, and each time they just changed the lighting.

Also, even for 1970’s PAL composite video, it looks too clean to be chroma keyed.

I've looked through the video a few times and I find that they do the same movements on all four angles (when those four angles are shown together); sometimes the angles and quality of the video can trick you in seeing stuff that is not there/not happening. It could be that when it cuts to an individual member shot, it might be a different take, like the cut to Frida at 2:42.
If the colors are contrasting enough, and the lightning and smoothing of the blue screen are carefully tuned, the effect can look clean even by 1970s standards. As we can see on the video, they're not entirely on an entire blue screen, only small portions in the background are; plus the blue color itself gets dimmed when the performance starts and stays dimmed (watching the blue color angle). And it's just a color swap, not removal, which can also be done with chroma key.
Also it seems that the 'garbage' was smoothed, so you just see smooth/faint outlines of gray (like at 1:13 behind Agnetha's hair and face).
So each camera outputted a different color on those blue-colored portions.

 

[tomswift2002]

I've looked through the video a few times and I find that they do the same movements on all four angles (when those four angles are shown together); sometimes the angles and quality of the video can trick you in seeing stuff that is not there/not happening. It could be that when it cuts to an individual member shot, it might be a different take, like the cut to Frida at 2:42.
If the colors are contrasting enough, and the lightning and smoothing of the blue screen are carefully tuned, the effect can look clean even by 1970s standards. As we can see on the video, they're not entirely on an entire blue screen, only small portions in the background are; plus the blue color itself gets dimmed when the performance starts and stays dimmed (watching the blue color angle). And it's just a color swap, not removal, which can also be done with chroma key.
Also it seems that the 'garbage' was smoothed, so you just see smooth/faint outlines of gray (like at 1:13 behind Agnetha's hair and face).
So each camera outputted a different color on those blue-colored portions.

Sorry, but they weren’t using chroma key or blue screen there. That “Grey” looks more like shadows.

Also in the 70’s, even in films, chroma key was not that smooth in either NTSC or PAL/SECAM. Remember composite is a very messy standard in both standards. What your suggesting, if it was now with analog component video, yeah it’s possible, but 70’s composite—-even on film in the 70’s they couldn’t get clean of any image. It’s too crisp, too sharp for 70’s chroma key.