Carpenters - the mono mixes

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This is fascinating... I had NEVER played the "Your Wonderful Parade" side ot that single. I have the version with the X and the edited version of the song, which I never knew about...

W. B., can you give us a refresher course on how to tell which pressing plant a record comes from? I have two copies of the "Ticket to Ride" single, with the same ?78673-X number etched into the run-off space. They both look pretty much identical (the typeface is the same on both), although the color of the A&M logo is slightly different on each label -- that could be due to age and fading, though.
David
 
davidgra said:
W. B., can you give us a refresher course on how to tell which pressing plant a record comes from? I have two copies of the "Ticket to Ride" single, with the same ?78673-X number etched into the run-off space. They both look pretty much identical (the typeface is the same on both), although the color of the A&M logo is slightly different on each label -- that could be due to age and fading, though.
David
Both those pressings you have emanated from Monarch Record Mfg. in Los Angeles, with their "Circle MR" logo and the "Delta" (triangle) symbol next to the number (such as the 78673-X) written on the wax. Such pressings at that point mostly had letterpressed label sheets (vs. offset). Their "ochre" was shiny, using (I think) Pantone 126C at the time (they would soon go to 111C), and the A&M was Warm Red. The logo-in-a-box was small, compared to Columbia-pressed A&M 45's of the period.

Speaking of which . . . on the other hand, here is what a typical Columbia-pressed 45 looked like, viz the Carpenters:

am-1236a-cp.jpg


This copy, from Pitman, NJ, was an all-offset-printed label, with the "ochre" resembling Pantone 117U (dull-finish ink on coated paper) and the A&M being colored Pantone 151C Orange. There was a small stamped "P" at the 1:00 position (regardless of how the matrix number was laid out on the wax), and stamped stamper number on the 6:00-7:00 position (for example, '4' or '2'). Terre Haute, IN pressings had the same label colors, albeit with their own fonts for label copy artwork, and a written "T" followed by an "I" for each stamper number in the 6:00 position (on some records, there were so many stampers made from one lacquer that it would read "TIIIIIIIIII"). Santa Maria, CA differed in some respects: a) The "ochre" was Pantone 112C, and b) Their 45's in that period were vinyl instead of styrene. That and the fonts which differed from Pitman or Terre Haute. Their wax had an "S" each time a stamper was made from a lacquer, again at the 6:00 position. If there were eight stampers made from the same lacquer, it would read "SSSSSSSS."
 
Harry said:
This means that, for whatever reasons, there are two different pressings of the 1142 single. Does yours have the circle MR symbol in the runout goove? Mine does, indicating a Monarch pressing. Perhaps yours was one of those East Coast/West Coast deals we've heard about

On the Ticket to Ride side I can clearly see the MR inside a circle in the run out groove. On the Parade side, it looks more like MP inside a circle but maybe the R is worn & it appears to look like a P now. :?:

When I first listend to Parade side, I immediately said, wait this is not right, Richard starts off, "Ladies & Gentlemen, don't forget to take your place in line, leave your mind behind" I said to myself what? It even sounds weird. But like you said this is a whole different take I believe cause Richard's voice is different. To my ears, Richard sounds more upfront in his vocals during the song but that could be the mono pressing, right?
 
All this talk about the versions of the TTR/YWP single made me pull my 45's. I have two of these singles and one has the Δ78673-X, the other has no "X" at the end. What REALLY shocked me was when I noticed one had the label for "Parade" on BOTH sides -- immediately I thought I'd stumbled upon something rare -- an early promo issue, mistake or SOMETHING... but of course it was just mistakenly labeled twice with "Parade" while one side still plays "Ticket". As for the recorded versions, both the Δ78673-X and the X-less one have shortened versions of both songs and appear to be the same exact versions as each other (short two-mesaure intro on "Ticket" and short, different dialogue on "Parade").

Randy
 
All this talk about the versions of the TTR/YWP single made me pull my 45's. I have two of these singles and one has the Δ78673-X, the other has no "X" at the end. What REALLY shocked me was when I noticed one had the label for "Parade" on BOTH sides -- immediately I thought I'd stumbled upon something rare -- an early promo issue, mistake or SOMETHING... but of course it was just mistakenly labeled twice with "Parade" while one side still plays "Ticket". As for the recorded versions, both the Δ78673-X and the X-less one have shortened versions of both songs and appear to be the same exact versions as each other (short two-mesaure intro on "Ticket" and short, different dialogue on "Parade").

Randy
 
W.B. said:
Speaking of which . . . on the other hand, here is what a typical Columbia-pressed 45 looked like, viz the Carpenters:

am-1236a-cp.jpg

Nice scan! :) FYI--I've got the new gallery system running. I'll probably have your single images uploaded once I locate 'em on my hard drive here. :)
 
I'm finally sitting down to read the first chapter in this huge big booklet on the new box set.

I THINK THIS ANSWERS THE QUESTION REGARDING THIS THREAD & THE SONG "YOUR WONDERFUL PARADE"

Here are Richard's Notes:

Offering (1969):
Karen was not as much into singing as she later became. This explains the number of my leads on this album, we were so anxious to start recording that we recorded our existing repertoire rather than searching for, or writing new material. The drum, bass, cello, solo, keyboards, and background vocals on Bettis's and my 1967 anti-establishment song, "Your Wonderful Parade" are from the demo done in Joe Osborn's garage studio. Only a new lead and real strings were added.


My thoughts:

Could this (shortned) intro talking lead that I hear on this 45 record be the demo and where Richard says above that only a new lead were added, be his "new" lead that we hear on the finished album version?

Or am I reading this wrong?
 
What Richard refers to in that quote is the demo of "Your Wonderful Parade" that can be heard on FROM THE TOP/ESSENTIAL COLLECTION. The demo does not contain the spoken intro at all; that is one of the things that was added in 1969 at the A&M Studios.

David
 
raz42289 said:
click here

Here is a site that has a lot of the promo singles.

I hope this helps for those crazy fans out there. :D

Are this dealer's prices the going rate for this stuff? I dunno, but $20.00 for the "Ticket To Ride/Wonderful Parade" single seems a might excessive to me.

Murray
...who'll be looking at flea markets and yard sales this summer...
 
Well, I finally found a way to get the mono recordings on CD. I was not able to listen to them, but I sent them in to be transfered.

Here's what my tracklisting will be:
1. Ticket To Ride
2. Your Wonderful Parade
3. We've Only Just Begun
4. For All We Know
5. Hurting Each Other
6. Yesterday Once More
7. Please Mr. Postman
8. Only Yesterday
9. Solitaire
10. I Need To Be In Love
11. Beechwood 4-5789
12. I Believe You
13. Sweet, Sweet Smile
14. It's Going To Take Some Time
15. Goodbye To Love
16. Top of the World
17. Sing
18. There's A Kind of Hush
19. All You Get From Love Is A Love Song
20. Touch Me When We're Dancing
21. (Want You) Back In My Life Again
22. Santa Claus Is Comin' To Town


I am looking forward to hearing what all of you have talked up!
I already own the edit of "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" on CD, and you all inspired me for this!
 
I am wondering if this thread sparked too much interest in these mono's. The recent prices on ebay have been well...over the top (pun intended) maybe this thread had nothing to do with it but I'm not sure. I was hoping to pick up at least 1 of those mono's but watching those prices, no way. Maybe I'll find these at my local record dealer one day & won't have to pay these outragous prices..ouch!!!

The ones I have I only paid $5.00 or $6.00 :D

...keeping my hard earned money in my pocket, online...
 
There was recently a seller on eBay that had about 20 promo singles only for about $5 dollars each. That is probably what they would go for in a record shop, so keep looking.
 
close2u said:
All this talk about the versions of the TTR/YWP single made me pull my 45's. I have two of these singles and one has the Δ78673-X, the other has no "X" at the end. What REALLY shocked me was when I noticed one had the label for "Parade" on BOTH sides -- immediately I thought I'd stumbled upon something rare -- an early promo issue, mistake or SOMETHING... but of course it was just mistakenly labeled twice with "Parade" while one side still plays "Ticket". As for the recorded versions, both the Δ78673-X and the X-less one have shortened versions of both songs and appear to be the same exact versions as each other (short two-mesaure intro on "Ticket" and short, different dialogue on "Parade").
Over the weekend, I purchased a copy of "Ticket . . . " / " . . . Parade" at an oldies store in Greenwich Village, and found some interesting things:
- The pressing, from Columbia in Pitman, N.J., used stampers derived from metal parts that originated from Monarch, hence my copy likewise has Δ78673 on "Ticket . . . " and Δ78673-X on " . . . Parade." They did their best to conceal part of the origin, with scratchings all over the "Circle MR" logo, but still . . .
- As according to the website www.carponline.bravepages.com, A&M single #1142 was released Nov. 5, 1969. Apparently, it figures: The fonts used for the label copy came from the Pitman plant itself, and may well be among the first releases to fall under what appeared to be a new policy of each of Columbia's plants being responsible for its own label copy artwork on a new A&M album or single. So with the exception of "Goodbye To Love" (AM-1367-S), every Carpenters 45 up to "Top of the World" (AM-1468-S) that was pressed by Columbia in Pitman used Pitman's own typesetting on the labels. (Whereas their first LP, then titled Offering, was released when the older policy of virtually all label copy artwork for A&M being imported from Santa Maria, CA, was still in effect. Incidentally, I found it interesting that the "Ticket" 45 made no mention of the album title. Premonition, perhaps?) Not to mention being probably the first Pitman-pressed single since certain copies of Sonny Charles's "Black Pearl" (#1053) to use Pitman-originated fonts on their label copy. And by the way, I only paid $10.00 for my copy.
 
Chris-An Ordinary Fool said:
I am wondering if this thread sparked too much interest in these mono's. The recent prices on ebay have been well...over the top (pun intended) maybe this thread had nothing to do with it but I'm not sure. I was hoping to pick up at least 1 of those mono's but watching those prices, no way. Maybe I'll find these at my local record dealer one day & won't have to pay these outragous prices..ouch!!!

I noticed this too, and wondered the same thing. In fact, I had bids in on about three of them, and all went for well over $20 each. That's way too high for these old promo singles that have been languishing around unwanted for years. Now there's a sudden interest in them?...

Harry
...thinking like Chris, online...
 
Even $5 is overpriced--these singles are not rare. Just some eBay mentality working against us as usual. Esquivel's LPs used to sell for astronomical amounts when the "lounge/exotica" music movement was in full swing. Now I see them sell for under $10, as they should, and anyone listing them as "rare" with prices of $15 and over never get any bids.
 
Visiting once again for an update.

I had a lucky day visiting my local record dealer today, He had about 8 boxes of 45's from his warehouse that he recently brought into his store & I had the chance to go through them. Lots of promo 45. I managed to pick up quite a few promo mono's from Abba, Olivia & Carpenters. The best part was they were only $4.00 each. Why is it I feel like a kid in a candy store going through 45 boxes, never knowing what I may run into. :tongue: I sure had fun.

In one of those boxes, I managed to stumble upon 2 more Carpenters Promo Mono 45's, the first I will mention I was totally shocked when I came across it thinking I would never find this title.

Goofus-Just looking at the stereo side has that familar HAECO-CSG Processing which like other promo 45's tends to make it sound like the vocals/instruments are coming from all over, can be a little distracting to some listeners, there's no mention of this processing on the label but then again it wasn't mentioned on other promo stereo side either. This particular processing is not quite as bad as others & it's actually listenable. However, this processing makes the vocals & instruments seem supressed into the background with nothing jumping out or in the fore-front. This processing is also not quite as drastic as the Haeco Processing on "Santa Claus 45"

The mono side to Goofus was an ear-poping experience. This one is almost as good as the Solitaire Mono I mentioned before. I compared this mono...side by side to the vinyl album version on A Kind of Hush. It is like night & day. Hearing this mono for the first time today, I am more convinced that there is something special going on here with these mono's. I was expecting more of the usual where the backing instruments take a more back seat & Karen being way upfront. I was pleasantly suprised at this mono. The moment the drum kick started in on the first few notes and then the tenor sax it was evident that these instruments (used though out most of the song) were more up-front in this mono mix, so much so that I literally had to turn my volume control down on my stereo receiver, it was that much louder than the LP vinyl version. I would still have to say that Karen's vocal track is still more closer to the front than the instruments I mentioned......going back to the LP version & re-playing that, I can't get over how supressed everything seems to be, not the case on the mono 45. Also the overdubbing on the mono sound cooler to listen to much more crisp & clean. Interesting too that this track on the LP Kind of Hush is listed as 3:32 but this is not right, clocking with my watch it is actually 3:09 which is the correct time on this promo 45.

The other promo I got was "All You Get From Love is a Love Song" again the stereo side has that haeco-csg processing & there is so much going on within this song that this processing doesn't help it any. The mono side was much more listener friendly, in fact Karen's lead vocal is much more in charge and more to the fore-front making it a treat to hear this mono vinyl 45. What is also cool about the mono side is as the song fades with Karen's vocal she sounds cool on the fade out due to this mono pressing, its just seconds but still cool to hear. The sax too is amazing.

I also found another single (not a promo) I've been looking for to replace my scratchy one. Happy to find an excellent copy of "Top of the World/Heather" AM-1468-S. This single must have been released as Richard mentioned much later right? due to the song taking off with the fans hence Richard releasing it as a single. Funny there is no mention on the label what LP it comes from (although I know...but would the DJ? playing it?) I wonder if any Dj's back then said, and that was Top of the World single from Now & Then :shock:. The Heather side does mention what Lp it can be found (Now & Then). I primarily wanted this for Heather, wow I found a gem cause this 45 version is crystal clear & simply breath-taking on 45. I love it.

All in all a pretty great day for me. I love these kind of days. Thought I would share with you.
 
How can you tell if it has the HAECO-CSG processing ? I have a few promo singles but I can't tell if they do or don't.

Andrew
...needing help, online...
 
raz42289 said:
How can you tell if it has the HAECO-CSG processing ? I have a few promo singles but I can't tell if they do or don't.
One factor -- promo or stock -- in determining whether an A&M 45 has HAECO-CSG processing is the fact that the matrix number on both the label and the trail-off (a.k.a. dead wax) is structured as CSG-xxxx (xxxxx if post-'74), as opposed to xxxx-S on garden-variety stereo issues or just plain xxxx on mono's. For example, the stock copies of "Merry Christmas Darling" (AM-1236-S) have the matrix on that side as CSG-2068 (whereas if it were ordinary stereo, it would've read 2068-S). Hope this is of some help.
 
Chris-An Ordinary Fool said:
Happy to find an excellent copy of "Top of the World/Heather" AM-1468-S. This single must have been released as Richard mentioned much later right? due to the song taking off with the fans hence Richard releasing it as a single. Funny there is no mention on the label what LP it comes from (although I know...but would the DJ? playing it?) I wonder if any Dj's back then said, and that was Top of the World single from Now & Then :shock:. The Heather side does mention what Lp it can be found (Now & Then). I primarily wanted this for Heather, wow I found a gem cause this 45 version is crystal clear & simply breath-taking on 45. I love it.
Although Jack Daugherty's name listed alongside Richard & Karen as co-producer on "Top . . . " should've been the tip-off that perhaps this was a modification on an earlier tune, being as by Now & Then Richard and Karen assumed full production credit.

Now, a question: Does the pressing have a "P" prior to the lacquer number on each side of the wax . . . or a "T," or an "S" or an "M"? Columbia's Pitman, NJ & Terre Haute, IN plants had the AM- prefix on their labels for sure, and Pitman also had the -S suffix. I'm all ears . . .
 
Good find on the "Goofus" single, Chris. Thanks for the listening report.

Harry
...who likes this record, but questions its release as a single, online...
 
W.B. said:
Now, a question: Does the pressing have a "P" prior to the lacquer number on each side of the wax . . . or a "T," or an "S" or an "M"? Columbia's Pitman, NJ & Terre Haute, IN plants had the AM- prefix on their labels for sure, and Pitman also had the -S suffix. I'm all ears . . .


The run off of Top of the World/Heather is:

Top of the World- A&M 2538 S (RE-1) -P2
Heather- A&M 2539 S-P1
 
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