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News Carpenters: "The Vinyl Collection"

Discussion in 'A Song For You: The Carpenters Forum' started by Simon KC1950, Mar 28, 2017.

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  1. Well then, that reinforces the fact that Richard changed that forever, and that the new LP is not exact to the old LP.
  2. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Well-Known Member

    Thanks Toolman, that's not what I was hoping.
    It sounds like we might have some differences with regard to what masters were used in creating this 2017 Vinyl Collection. Which kind of surprises me.
  3. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Active Member

    Sounds like this LP was sourced from the Remastered Classics tapes, or Richard insisted on the change.
  4. I guess i need to track down all the originals and not worry about reissues. It's a shame that Richard took the George Lucas approach and started tweaking and changing what we all know by heart. It's just sad.
  5. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Well-Known Member

    I just wanted to add some additional info on this 2017 Vinyl Collection. We already have confirmation from Toolman above about Those Good Old Dreams taken from the Remastered Classics and not the original LP. I also mentioned earlier that on The Singles 69-73 the medley is sped up so that matches the original LP and not the remastered classics which was slowed down. Here are some others:

    Breaking Up Is Hard To Do
    Original LP-There is a glitch when the first cymbal hits on the left at the beginning and then Richards vocals shift to the right
    Remastered Classic-the glitch was fixed and Richards vocal does not shift to right
    I can confirm that the version that appears on the 2017 LP is the remastered classic.

    B'wana She No Home
    Original LP-We discussed this recently with more natural reverb added to both the single 45 and also the LP version. Nice and bright, open.
    Remastered Classic-the reverb was removed with a more muted sound, less open and much less brightness.
    I can confirm that the version that appears on the 2017 LP is the remastered classic.

    Look To Your Dreams
    There was a typo on the time of this recording, the original LP listed it as 4:28 on the label when it should have been 5:12
    The 4:28 version is only found on the U.S. single 45 (no trailing piano)
    I can confirm that the label on the 2017 LP has the correct time it is listed as 5:13

    I still want this set but I'm kinda bummed that they were not sourced completely from the original 70's LP's even if they have errors or faults.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
    newvillefan and Cuppadan like this.
  6. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Active Member

    I’m not sure where you get the idea that a lot of information is lost in the analog-to-Digital process. I work with a lot of videotape, and when I’m digitizing from analog tapes (like U-Matic or Video-/Hi-8mm) there is no loss in quality, or if there is signs of loss, it’s due to it being a copy or another issue beyond my control. And if there is a dropout, a lot of times just a rewind through that section allows for the section to be played just fine. Also in the case of some video formats (not entirely sure if there are audio versions), like 8mm and Betacam, there were Digital versions released that were backwards compatible and digitize the signal right at the playback head, with no analog connections. And with other analog formats, unless you are going through a lot of analog connections, then you are capturing the highest quality signal. And even when the signal passes through a digital time base corrector, you still end up with the same generation-quality signal. I’ve transferred videos from U-Matic, over the past 5 years, that dated back to the early-70’s, and aside from having to clean the heads a couple of times before getting a clean transfer, the transfer was nearly-flawless, and the customer told me that he never remembered the videos looking so good.

    One thing to remember with analog is that it could hide a multitude of sins, so a lot of times you’ll think your hearing or seeing something that wasn’t there in the analog world, but really it was there all the time, and the digital just exposes those flaws. And as long as you have a good sound or video technician, you can get a transfer that features no information loss.

    So with the Remastered Classics transfers, or even transfers made in the 80’s (the Sony PCM-601 had a S/PDIF out allowing for digital-to-Digital transfers from early Betamax, U-Matic & VHS PCM recordings) a good technician would be able to get you a really good 1st digital generation transfer from the analog tapes. This may explain why Richard was doing all those remixes (besides re-recording his piano in stereo)—-the analog hid most of the flatness that only showed up on digital. I know that I find, especially with the early Beach Boys stuff that was mixed in mono the LPs have more “presence” on my stereo system, and seem to play fully out of both speakers, whereas the CD version is rather centered and doesn’t give that expansion.
    byline likes this.

  7. @tomswift2002
    I'm not sure how video was brought into this but we are talking about audio formats.
    I respectfully beg to differ on some of your points. Rudy is correct when he said converting analog to digital loses information. An analog signal is manifested as a pure continuous waveform, like a sideways S. When you digitize any signal you have to sample that waveform in slices. For CD that is 44100 slices or 22050 per channel for a stereo pair. The part of the wave between those slices is lost. And given that it's only 16 bit limits the range of dynamics it can have as well. That is why highs sound brittle and the sound can lose some of the delicate ambience of the recording.
    As for "a lot of analog connections", even one analog link in the chain will lose quality, and that includes analog circuitry as well.
    I do agree that tape can hide (mask) information that digital recorders can reveal. However, as you said a good engineer can minimize those effects and bring the best sound possible into the digital domain.
    Murray likes this.
  8. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Active Member

    byline likes this.
  9. One thing I find a bit cumbersome about the vinyl box set is the considerable weight of the records. Can any of the sound experts here chime in as to what makes for a better sounding recording just because it's pressed on thicker (and heavier) vinyl?
  10. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Well-Known Member

    I think it has to do with weight against the turntable platter the heavier the vinyl is the better because it helps eliminate any vibration and your stylus and tone arm supposedly work better with much less movement and is suppose make it much quieter in play. At least that is what I'm thinking. I think the way the record is cut is all the same regardless what the weight of the vinyl. I also think the mastering of the project is more important than the weight of the LP.

    To my ears, the analog recordings of the original pressings are going to sound better even though there pressed on thinner vinyl. I can only imagine what it could have sounded like with the original analog recordings on 180 gram vinyl. It would have been a match made in heaven. I don't think we will ever get that again (analog recordings) with any Carpenters LPs hence why the original LPs are going up and up in price for a sealed copy.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  11. Thanks for shedding light on the subject. Perhaps I can finally "cash in" on the few extra still-sealed original Carpenters LPs I have (Horizon, Singles, Passage, Hush)! LOL
  12. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Well-Known Member

    Well...if I was you I would hold on to those sealed copies....had I not bought this box set I probably would have bought a sealed copy of every Carpenters original LP just to keep sealed in my collection. While I have opened originals that sound excellent for playing...just owning a sealed copy with all the hype stickers is very cool as a collectable. It's going to become harder and harder to find sealed copies of the originals for a decent price. As someone said before, if I could go back in time I would have bought an extra copy of every LP at $7.00 to $10.00 and kept them sealed.
  13. Sue

    Sue Member

    Gosh I am learning so much from reading all your knowlegable posts. I have always just enjoyed playing and singing(badly) along with the Carpenters music. When I get my box set after the uk release date I will be listening to them with more interest I'm sure! Never having bought Carpenters LP's first time around, I am very excited to get brand new vinyl records. I know some of you have had issues, so I'm hoping fingers crossed that all will be fine. Roll on Friday!
    BatzDD likes this.

  14. @tomswift2002
    Tom, I did not know about the digital masters using video tape. That is amazingly cool information to know. I need to study up on this more. I still disagree on the resolution aspect and that you lose information. You even said it's not a true copy of the analog signal. That is why we want and listen to analog in the first place is because we get the pure analog signal.
    Thank you for the great discussion here. I have learned a lot.
  15. I most likely will keep them sealed for posterity. Not sure who will appreciate them when I'm gone, however! ;-/
    Jeff and Rick-An Ordinary Fool like this.
  16. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Well-Known Member

    Or you could sell them to me. :wink: lol
    Jeff likes this.
  17. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Active Member

    With the resolution, you have to remember that the original tapes were made in the 60’s and 70’s on tapes that, while good for their time, were recorded on 60’s and70’s era sound and mixing boards. Fast forward to even 1998 and there have been great advances in audio recording technology. In the 70’s a lot of amplifiers were still using vacuum tubes, whereas by 98 that had been replaced with the more efficient microchip that could give you better sound and could, even on analog audio recordings, give a much higher resolution of audio than they could get in the 70’s.

    So with the Remastered Classics tapes, even with the originals, there would only be so much that Richard could do to make them sound good on CD or any digital format, even studio digital formats. But digital offers a much higher resolution than the original tapes could offer. I’m reminded of that tag that studios put on CD reissues in the 80’s warning people that they may hear tape hiss and other analog anomalies because of the high resolution of CD when compared to cassette or vinyl.

    I’m reminded of a few years ago when the Perry Como special was coming out on DVD. People were wondering how it was going to look and sound, and I think some people thought that it was going to look like today’s 480i Video, which others pointed out was impossible, because it had been shot in the 70’s, when video had a lower resolution. DVD showed the full resolution and more that was made up in order to fill the space the DVD resolution used
  18. Jeff

    Jeff Well-Known Member

    Spectacular to see CarpenterS sites bustling. Not just with sounds of the season but the entire catalog offered up in vinyl. I have my 2nd COLLECTED white vinyl. I'll keep this for posterity. Back to the Vinyl Collection I couldn't be more delighted. The entire release from conception to fruition has been abuzz all over the internet. What a kick to read 2017 A&M Records on these little gems. The record bin at MUSIC MILLINEUM Portland Oregon showcases the box set and Collected. The vinyl room has a space devoted to CarpenterS. Filled to the brim with each individual album brand spanking new. A gorgeous sight. The entire catalog on display. Looks like my breakfast nook everyday. Nirvana.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  19. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Well-Known Member

    Jeff, how is the quality of your 2017 vinyl from the Collection Box Set? I'm sure you've seen what I went through...still waiting for Universal to reply back. I don't mind waiting as I want the 2nd set to be correct.
  20. Song4uman

    Song4uman Active Member

    Has anyone gotten through to the customer service? If so, did they give you a time line for replacement.
  21. Jonr

    Jonr New Member

    Weight has nothing whatsover to do with sound quality. It is only a marketing term that newer vinyl buyers have fallen for big time. I have thousands of vinyl albums and I can tell you if anything, the thinner pressings (especially 70's pressings) sound better than the thicker. My assumption is back in the day, thicker vinyl had a lot of regrind within the mfg process. But, all things being equal, it should not effect sq. Unfortunately, I have plenty of new releases pressed on thick vinyl that are terrible pressings. Look no further than some of the new Carpenter pressings. Audiophile pressings from the likes of MFSL in the 80's were always pressed beautifully on thin vinyl. 180g would not have made a difference.

    I agree with your comment about the thin original pressings sounding better, but that isn't because of the weight. I don't like the mastering of the new releases because what they used is too many generations from what was used when the originals were pressed...they don't have the presence of the older pressings. And, I assume the mastering was helped using the fresh tape. Digital doesn't resove as well if you have really good hearing and know what to listen for. With Carpenters music, I can easily tell the difference. So, even if these pressings were nice, and I likely would have still kept them, the originals are probably always going to sound best. The challenge, and what excited me with the new releases, is getting quiet vinyl. I have purchased more than 10 copies of Horizon and I still don't have a super clean copy. But, so far the new one's aren't any quieter...how ironic! I'm glad some of you are reporting getting nice copies, and it's nice UMg is replacing the noisy ones. I'll be curious to see if they send quieter copies or if they are just dipping from the same well.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  22. Mark-T

    Mark-T Well-Known Member

    Jeff, you'll have to take a photo of that display next time you're in the shop.
  23. GroovinGarrett

    GroovinGarrett New Member

    What a disaster.

    Judging from the photos contributed by forum members here and elsewhere, it appears the set was unfortunately pressed at Rainblo. Do any or all of the albums have an S-xxxxxx numeric code in the deadwax? That's Rainbo's in-house numbering system.
  24. Gustavo

    Gustavo New Member

    My order from Italy shipped today. I hope my box set was pressed in Europe or at least is not from the defective batch.
  25. Jeff

    Jeff Well-Known Member

    A bit of general maintenance brush brush here, brush brush there, my collection is sublime. Minimal cleaning. My second set I have no clue. It's still in its shipping box from the record store. I suppose I'll never know. It is just for looks.
    jaredjohnfisher likes this.
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