newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I don't think anyone can argue with this.
🎄 Holidays! "Christmas Once More" [Album]: Spoiler Thread
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🎄 Holidays! "Christmas Once More" [Album]: Spoiler Thread
I don't think anyone can argue with this.
I certainly would, if there were really a problem.
I've already said elsewhere I don't particularly like this mix, and find some digital weirdness in the sound quality, but it is by no means "defective." It is what it is, and it's up to others whether or not they like or dislike this release. I mean, that's why we all have opinions, and that's why they all differ. If one person's system can't play it back, that's a "you" problem, not an "us" problem. And if it's that unpleasant, stop playing the damned thing already. Let others make up their own minds without injecting false information into the discussion.
On that note, the discussion about "defects" in this recording are now shut down in this thread.
This post is not about a defect, but about a direct comparison between the old and the new. Here's how this all proceeded:
I put "Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas" from the new album - and the same title from the old West German CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT. I then reduced each of those to mono, so that I would only have really two tracks to compare. By putting the new track's mono into the left channel and the old track's mono into the right channel, I could then compare the two.
Next I had to adjust the speed since the two were very slightly different in speed. I ended up slowing down the new track by a factor of -0.25% which brought the two into close alignment. I also flipped the phase of the right channel to better match the left.
Then I listened to hear if I could detect any differences - and I could. It's important to use headphones to hear these minute differences. And it sounds to me as if the orchestral backings of the two tracks lined up pretty well, but Karen's vocal seemed to be different. It sounds to me as if Karen's "new" vocal (left) is slightly ahead of the old vocal (right). Also, listen at around the ten second mark and you can clearly hear Karen's breath intake on the new track (left) that's missing from the old track (right).
So while I don't pretend to know *why* these artifacts are the way they are, my analysis could help explain why we are hearing something undefinedly different. After listening to these tracks for so many years, the sound - even the phasing - are burned into our brains. Now the track is somehow reconstructed for better balance and any slight alteration is noticeable by those of us who've got the old track memorized.
I put "Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas" from the new album - and the same title from the old West German CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT. I then reduced each of those to mono, so that I would only have really two tracks to compare. By putting the new track's mono into the left channel and the old track's mono into the right channel, I could then compare the two.
Next I had to adjust the speed since the two were very slightly different in speed. I ended up slowing down the new track by a factor of -0.25% which brought the two into close alignment. I also flipped the phase of the right channel to better match the left.
Then I listened to hear if I could detect any differences - and I could. It's important to use headphones to hear these minute differences. And it sounds to me as if the orchestral backings of the two tracks lined up pretty well, but Karen's vocal seemed to be different. It sounds to me as if Karen's "new" vocal (left) is slightly ahead of the old vocal (right). Also, listen at around the ten second mark and you can clearly hear Karen's breath intake on the new track (left) that's missing from the old track (right).
So while I don't pretend to know *why* these artifacts are the way they are, my analysis could help explain why we are hearing something undefinedly different. After listening to these tracks for so many years, the sound - even the phasing - are burned into our brains. Now the track is somehow reconstructed for better balance and any slight alteration is noticeable by those of us who've got the old track memorized.
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
Nemily
"I'm goin' way down south to Baton Rouge, tonight"
Stunning. Thank you, Harry.
Greg
Well-Known Member
I personally love hearing new mixes and am thrilled that RC still gets to work on the legacy tracks and create new projects. But I will say, as a musician myself, I think there can be a certain magic in the imperfect. For example, I loved the RPO album, it was a glorious triumph for Richard, but I find the mixing a little sterile. On paper, it's perfect in so many ways, but it leaves me a little cold. There is a term in digital music mixing called 'quantization' and the thing with 'quantizing' a sound is, it will be perfect to a highly trained ear, but it may also lose whatever it was that was interesting about the sound in the first place.
I have a song where buried in the mix you hear a musician faintly coughing. My purist co-producer loathes this sound. He still talks about it some 10 years later and would love nothing more than to remove it. But to me, it's part of the magic I feel for the song - and plus the audience don't know what the sound is - it's just a slightly muffled noise buried in the mix - and i'm sure we'll continue to argue about it for the rest of our lives, beacuse we hear it in different ways. Such is mixing.
I have a song where buried in the mix you hear a musician faintly coughing. My purist co-producer loathes this sound. He still talks about it some 10 years later and would love nothing more than to remove it. But to me, it's part of the magic I feel for the song - and plus the audience don't know what the sound is - it's just a slightly muffled noise buried in the mix - and i'm sure we'll continue to argue about it for the rest of our lives, beacuse we hear it in different ways. Such is mixing.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
That's part of the magic of analogue recordings and one of the reasons I prefer the original album mixes. There's a warmth and ambiance with analogue that you don't get with digital.
byline
Well-Known Member
I agree with you and Greg. There reaches a point when things sound too pristine. It becomes a "manufactured" sound rather than a naturally expressed. I'm not so naive to believe that recordings aren't filled with all kinds of artificial touches and enhancements. But there's a point beyond which, with too much tinkering, music starts to sound sterile ... and maybe that tipping point is different for all of us. What is "too much" for some is "just right" for others. Different people will perceive the music differently.
It's part of the reason why, so far, I haven't felt motivated enough to buy this album. The Canada Post strike has added another reason. If I order it, I'd like to get it before Christmas.
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GDBY2LV
Well-Known Member
Wow! So glad they used the single version! That's a major perk.There’s also this collection, that is an import here in the states that’s all Christmas music. It was released as a 3cd or 4lp red vinyl collection, with the single version of Merry Christmas Darling. I play it a lot. Vinyl might be hard to find. Cd available on Amazon.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
You don't realise how wrong you are 😉. This is a UK collection and over here pretty much every one of those tracks on disc 4 is considered a Christmas classic. We're really big in Britain about remembering and venerating songs that were huge hits at Christmas but which weren't necessarily about Christmas. The tracks on that fourth disc bring back so many childhood memories for me 😊
The 'Now...' series started out as 'Now That's What I Call Music' and has been going since the early 80s. Each release celebrated a year in music ('Now That's What I Call Music 1' was the first, released in the United Kingdom on 28 November 1983.). Those earliest CD releases are now highly sought after and mega rare.
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GDBY2LV
Well-Known Member
I have a couple of them, and yes they started out in England, but sold so well that they started releasing them here, with mostly American acts on them. I’ve had about half of those tracks on other CDs or vinyl from the 80’s already, but this collection is more complete. I bought the vinyl a couple of years ago, and the cd last year. It’s a really good collection, with lots of songs that were never played here until SiriusXM came along.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I've just looked that collection up on Spotify and it's there in 4-disc format but weirdly the tracks on each disc are in a totally different running order, and with some completely different tracks too. Maybe something to do with the available vinyl space on the LP format you posted above, and licensing arrangements that didn't allow specific tracks to be included on your import. But it's a stellar collection though and one I wasn't aware of 👍
EDIT: Oh - and just to let you know 'Merry Christmas Darling' isn't included on the UK Spotify set - any version of it.
EDIT: Oh - and just to let you know 'Merry Christmas Darling' isn't included on the UK Spotify set - any version of it.
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mjb72
Member
I hoping Richard will mix the other tracks, particularly, "What Are You Doing New Year's Eve?" in 2025. I'm including my Karen-solo Christmas album, and of course I had to create my own artwork for the new release, C.O.M. Just wish I had a hi res picture of them during the Perry Como show because Karen was never more beautiful!
GDBY2LV
Well-Known Member
It finally happened this morning on iTunes.
CP #125, Gold #171, & COM #194.
I think newer listeners/buyers will be a bit confused by which Christmas album to buy. Especially since there are actually three choices, including Christmas Collection. The best price would be COM @ $9.99. Best overall choice CP for $3.00 more. Anyway 3 albums in the Top 200! 🥳
CP #125, Gold #171, & COM #194.
I think newer listeners/buyers will be a bit confused by which Christmas album to buy. Especially since there are actually three choices, including Christmas Collection. The best price would be COM @ $9.99. Best overall choice CP for $3.00 more. Anyway 3 albums in the Top 200! 🥳
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
The charts don't really mean anything more these days. In the 80s it was a disappointment if you didn't get into the top 40, now you're lucky if you get into the top 200. How I wish for the old weekly chart shows that counted down the best selling 30 songs of the week and kept the number 1 of the week until the end of each episode.
Nemily
"I'm goin' way down south to Baton Rouge, tonight"
Phew, I believe I have the original version of Merry Christmas Darling on vinyl nailed down now. Thanks for all the great information @byline and @Harry and @GDBY2LV
Pulling this all together, the "Merry Christmas Darling" original single version on vinyl, can be found on 4 different vinyl that we are aware. It still amazes me to this day that the original version is not on any off Carpenters studio vinyl albums. This is where you can find it:
The 1970 release of the 45 RPM single released on 11/20/1970. This 45 had some issues with processing (but the radio station did not-they had a while promo/mono 45). Remarkably, this song was recorded on 11/11/70 and orchestrated on 11/13/70. It was released nine days later - are you kidding me? How did they do that?
The 1972 US Various-Christmas Is...(Memorable Songs of Christmas by Great Artists of Out Time). The only way I can think of to describe hearing the "Merry Christmas Darling" track on this album is that it sounds brand new. What I mean is, it has no remixing. It is the version that I grew up with, but it was the first time hearing it on vinyl and not over the radio. I am kind of speechless (it's my favorite song and all). It was better than I remember.
The 1972 UK "Merry Christmas Darling" 2 LP. This may now be my favorite Christmas album. Ever. Well, for this week, at least. Hey, where else can you find the original Merry Christmas Darling and The Bell that Couldn't Jingle on the same album? Cheers, UK.
The 2022 UK Now That’s What I Call Christmas 3LP (Red). I have had this UK version since 2022. It’s a fantastic set. For some reason, I never played Side B of LP 3, which is the one with “Merry Christmas Darling” on track 3. And it even says - “single Version” next to it on the back cover. It was right in front of me the whole time. This is most likely the High Res 1970 version.
Another rare one on vinyl:
“Santa Claus is Coming to Town”, the 1974 original single version can be found on the 1975 Goodyear LP Henry Mancini Selects Great Songs of Christmas. It is the only place it is available on vinyl that I am aware other than on the RPM 45. It was recorded in 1972, sweetened in 1974 (and later in 1978 sweetened some more) and the vocal was recorded in one take. It features Bob Messenger on the sax solo.
Most of the tracks on this 1975 album and on the 1972 "Various-Christmas Is" were recorded in the 1960's and a few on the 50's and even 40's, so Karen and Richard were the new kids on the block when these were released, so to speak. Although, the Goodyear LP was released during the Horizon era by then.
I am in awe hearing both early recordings of these two mammoth Carpenters Christmas songs in the original versions on vinyl. I prefer them to any of the remixes. I thought I preferred the remixes of Santa Claus, however after hearing the original, less sweetened, this is now my favorite. I believe they forgot to add one of the harmony parts or something the first time, but I like it.
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This serves as a sort-of update to the older SOMETHING FESTIVE album that B.F. Goodrich sponsored in the US. Every song from SOMETHING FESTIVE is represented on MERRY CHRISTMAS DARLING with a few asterisks. The biggest change is that "The Bell That Couldn't Jingle" is the Herb Alpert Tijuana Brass version rather than Burt Bacharach's that appeared on SOMETHING FESTIVE.
Then, the two Herb Alpert tracks on SOMETHING FESTIVE were slightly different for that US album. "Winter Wonderland" appeared there without the choral intro, which is present on MERRY CHRISTMAS DARLING. "Jingle Bell Rock" had a different "bell" sound in the opening on the FESTIVE track, whereas the standard TJB CHRISTMAS ALBUM version is placed on MERRY CHRISTMAS DARLING.
All of the rest of MERRY CHRISTMAS DARLING contains either exact tracks from FESTIVE or are additions. Nearly the whole TJB CHRISTMAS ALBUM is found here. Only "The Christmas Song" and "My Favorite Things" are missing.
Extras besides Herb's tracks are:
- Song Of Joy - The London Stereo Orchestra
- Aranjuez Con Tu Amor - Simpatico (sounds for all the world just like The Sandpipers)
- Desiderata - Gallagher & Lyle
- A Christmas Song - Shawn Phillips
Enjoy!
They are related, but two different concepts; both do alter the sound.
To digitize audio, in the most basic of terms, is to sample it at specific points in time; as it relates to CD-resolution, it's 44,100 times per second. Studios tend to work at a sampling rate at least 96,000 times per second (and 24 bits of resolution), one reason being to reduce rounding errors when applying any digital alteration like changing the level (volume) of a signal, applying digital EQ or reverb, etc. A lower sampling rate and bit rate does alter the sound, so it's no surprise that an analog source like vinyl or tape will sound more lifelike, even with their shortcomings.
This is going to be harder to explain but perhaps @Greg can help clarify/correct what I'm attempting to say here. (And I'll try to keep it as non-technical as possible.) Quantizing is a digital process in mixing where the elements of the music are aligned to a timing grid, so everything is perfectly aligned. For instance, if a drummer played a rhythm very slightly after the "1" beat, quantizing would move that so the drum beat is perfect.
In a sense, that's almost like the timing equivalent to Autotune, which is pitch correction.
Heavy-handed use of quantizing and Autotune can make the music sound robotic. With previously recorded music we've grown up with, at least in my opinion, both would ruin the original performance. Those imperfections make the recording "human." Making old recordings pristine and perfect (as RC does) only sucks the life out of them.
I have a new argument for you to use. Tell him the cough ranks right up there with Elvis, and RCA's finest engineers. 😁
One of the most obvious coughs I've ever heard is in the Elvis Presley song "Love Me." If you listen to the first 30 seconds, you'll hear one of the vocalists (the Jordanaires?) cough. (I won't give the exact timing...pretty sure everyone here can pick it out.)
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