Giddens disses Sergio & 'Equinox'

Status
Not open for further replies.
Giddins is just another jazz elitist snob who turns nose up at anything with an A&M logo. He should just shut up if the recording is out of his league. That's the main reason I quit reviewing myself: I got tired of all the trash being slung my way, and trying to find anything nice to say about it. And was also taken to task a few times for not appreciating, say, an "acid jazz" recording that, to me, was nothing but a bunch of noise. It's fairer to let someone who listens to and knows about acid jazz review it, IMHO.

I remember one incident where I quite resoundingly trashed one of those bands billing themselves as "Cuban" or "Latin", but all it was, was a bunch of noodling bebop crap with congas in the background. Naturally, I was taken to task for that...and all I could think of was the fact that it's misrepresenting something like this to call it a "Latin" or "Afro-Cuban" album. How can I even write about something that pissed me off on the first few notes I heard?

Sergio and Brasil '66 are hardly "purist" from any musical standpoint (jazz, Brazilian, pop, etc.), but it's that unique mix he debuted with Herb Alpert Presents that won him so many followers over the years. And there's nothing wrong with any of us if we happen to like it!!

-= N =-
 
I and some others have been discussing this Giddins column (particularly the Wes Montgomery comments) on the Blue Note board recently. I branded Giddins an archetypal "moldy fig" in that thread, on the basis of his comments on the Montgomery disc. I stand by that remark now more than ever. He's just another pompous windbag.

- William
 
"Moldy fig" is a good description. :laugh:

I really do think that type of thinking is what has caused jazz to lose a lot of popularity. When a major city like Detroit no longer has a jazz radio station ($mooth Jazz does not count), you know it's in trouble. There are a lot of artists coming to town this summer who get little or no radio exposure, which is a good thing. I have tickets for a triple-header of Jean-Luc Ponty, David Benoit and Rippingtons in July, and we're heading downtown to see Sanborn on June 12th.

But that old, stodgy mindset where the slightest variation from their oh-so-precious mainstream jazz is only serving to hurt them in the end. The audience for that kind of music grows smaller since so many are turned off by their elitist attitude toward it. (We are less than worthy because we listen to Alpert and Mendes...therefore we do not deserve to belong in their exalted sphere of existence.) They can have it--the attitude, the music, everything. I'm more adventurous and refuse to be stuck listnening to any one style of music--over the course of a typical day, I'll be all over the musical map. If I want to hear some Wes Montgomery one minute and Doobie Brothers the next, that doesn't make me any less of a person. In fact, listening to and enjoying all types of music makes a person's experience that much richer.

Hopefully this type of jazz thinking/reporting/reviewing heads the way of the dinosaur soon. I used to like more jazz than I do now. Some of these moldy figs are almost as stuffy as some of the classical/opera bunch anymore, where if you don't like their type of music, well...anything else just isn't considered music. Their loss.

-= N =-
 
As much as I would love to find lots wrong with Mr. Giddens' review,he gets lots right when he stays in his field of expertise. The overall comments about Verve's laziness and cheapness are accurate-he probably doesn't know the price gouging because his copies were all promos. The series is slipshod and without direction and there is absolutely no one,especially from Verve,who could give me a reason why these titles were chosen and thousands ignored. His comment about jazz discs moving briskly through the retail world is either sarcastic or someone living in a vacuum. The info about the vocalists(Clooney,McRae,Whiting,etc.)seem to be from someone who remembers the original material and has revisited this material rather than rely on original views. The criticism about Desmond & Brubeck also is coming from someone who remembers the original vinyl release. And,if you have read my rants before,he gets the Montgomery album right-it was wrong to add strings to a fine live recording the first time-it is an embarrassment the second time around . He obviously knows nothing about the Mendes album and cannot take it on its own merits(it never pretended to be jazz-it is fine adult pop) and the same ignorance shines through on the Alice Coltrane title. The world evidently ended for Gary about 1965....Mac
 
Sure, Gary's right about this series being shoddily packaged, haphazardly selected, etc.--very few could argue otherwise. It's his dismissive attitude that gets my goat. He can't seem to just say, "I don't like this disc"; it's more like, "I don't like this disc, and anyone who does isn't a SERIOUS jazz listener." At least that's the vibe I get from him. His halfway-favorable reviews of the Astrud and Willie Bobo titles were pleasant surprises, but he still has a habit of damning with faint praise.

About the Wes Montgomery, I'll just quote what I posted yesterday night at the Blue Note board, if no one minds:

[...] Yes, the ethics of recording brass and woodwind parts over a live performance are indeed debatable. But since the complete Half Note quartet sides are readily available (sans overdubs) on the Impressions CD, I don't think Giddins as all that much to complain about. He can buy Impressions if he wants the quartet, and I can buy Willow if I want Claus Ogerman--where's the problem? Everybody wins.

Indeed, Verve SHOULD make it clear that the new CD does have the brass and woodwinds intact. No question. But to state, as Giddins does, that the Willow CD simply should not exist is an awfully exclusionary attitude. Like I said, he's already got his Impressions--let me have my Willow. :)

- William
 
I'll admit that the only "Half Note" Wes sessions I have is the Impressions: The Verve Jazz Sides, and has none of the overdubs, so I don't really miss anything. A neat recording, working with one of the best rhythm sections in the biz: Jimmy Cobb, Wyn Kelly and Paul Chambers. Too bad they didn't stick together longer--they were only together for a few months, during which this was recorded.

Couldn't resist--I just put it on. :wink:

-= N =-
 
It DOES come down to the the ethics-that is what this is all about. There has always been an opinion missing in this equation-Wes, himself. Or at least his estate. The problem is not the quality of Claus' work,or the existance of the live recordings-it s the ethics of changing the art of a person who has no say on this. From things I've read about Wes,he recorded all of the Creed Taylor Verve & A&M/CTI material knowingly to finally put some money in his pocket. The man had a right to do so. But he had problems working with string sections and Don Sebesky has aknowledged that the strings were added after Wes recorded his material. Fine-Wes freely allowed this. But,as far as I know,Wes never wanted this to happen where his art was his own-at a live gig. Does Verve have the legal right to do anything they want to this stuff? Probably. Should they? Not then and not now. It isn't a question for you or me, Claus Ogerman,a has been critic or a record executive suit to answer. It's none of our business. It was a statement made by Wes with his guitar to an audience. When that equation is tampered with,someone loses. Mac
 
Mac... I see where you're coming from, but I personally don't see this as being much different from DJ'ing or remixing.

In fact, you're probably aware that Verve just released a collection called Verve: Remixed, which contains remixes of a bunch of jazz tracks, as re-done by a variety of current DJ's. I doubt Carmen McRae, Ella, Billie, Sarah Vaughan or any of the other artists featured thereon knew they were getting into this project when they recorded these songs 30-50 years ago. Do you believe that remix projects are unethical also (i.e. that they are also tampering objectionably with deceased artists' statements, etc.)? Honest question.

- William
 
Remixes? I go two ways.

1. If the artist approves of the remix, or requests that it be done (dance mix of an album cut), then I'm OK with it.

2. If a label mines the vault for tracks that a DJ tampers with through remixing--flat out against it. It just reeks of profiteering and to me is as bad as that talentless geek Kenny G. overdubbing himself on top of Louis Armstrong.

I also believe remixing died with the 80's. Today's "remixes" are, to me, a bunch of "gangstas" throwing drum-machines and synths (that they barely have a grasp of playing) on top of existing music loud enough to drown it out. This is not a remix--it's a case of someone using an existing track as a background for their own inept noodling.

The first remixes were the "dance" (later "disco") remixes, where an engineer with bona fide talent would go back into the studio with the original multitrack masters and change the mix, bringing up the rhythm tracks or cutting out all the instruments entirely for a bit, and even extending the song. The last 12" singles/remixes (or their CD equivalents) I bought were for Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation and possibly Earth Wind & Fire.

Back then, remixing was an art. Today, it's not even remixing. It's a disgrace. :evil:

-= N =-
 
William-An honest and viable question. Without approval of artist or estate(once again,it is possible/probable that this permission is not needed,though today's artists and contracts are probably a lot sharper)-NO,this is a sham. I was an early supporter of US3-thought it was a way to introduce a new generation to the world of jazz,but if the original artists do not approve of it and receive no monetary gain-no go. And that includes PeeWee Marquete's "Thank Y'all!" on "Cantaloop".Especially in the case of a live recording-at the time,the artist may approve of correcting a flub or sweetening(Pete Jolly's "Give A Damn") but only the original creator(or estate) of the music in question should be deciding that. The flip side of the coin-when the Verve BB existed,I asked(with no reponse) about the possible release of Wes' studio work-sans the Don Sebesky,Johnny Pate,etc. meddling. Imagine a Dean Benedetti-type of recording with only that brilliant guitar standing by itself. It could probably be done and IMHO it would be both an instructional item for players and a way for Verve to extend the catalog. An interesting sidebar to the Verve Remix Project-it was supposed to be released on vinyl and is probably the first piece of Verve vinyl outside of the farmed out audiophile LPs in over 10 years. Mac
 
Neil-A note about this business of Remixing-After JenLo scored a #1 with the reworking of her 2001 sophomore album,you will probably see remixes return with a vengence. This week alone saw Ms. Lopez ex-squeeze P.Diddy(Sean "Puffy" Combs)bring out a remix project that will probably chart much higher than his last two efforts. In the jazz world,Medeski,Martin & Woods remixed parts of their "Combustication" album a year apart from each other-an interesting idea which,though not my cup of tea,seems to have a viable market.Mac
 
jimac51 said:
NO,this is a sham. I was an early supporter of US3-thought it was a way to introduce a new generation to the world of jazz,but if the original artists do not approve of it and receive no monetary gain-no go.

The thing about "a way to introduce a new generation to the world of jazz" is exactly how I see remixes and such. Whether it's aimed at an MOR/pop audience (like A&M/CTi) or the techno crowd (as are the current remixes)... I think it's a valid method of expanding the audience of jazz. I'm ready to agree to disagree on it. :D

(However, I do agree that the original artists [or their estates, as applicable] should receive credit and monetary compensation.)

- William
 
At least the composers and lyricists should get reimbursed for it, but unfortunately the artists who performed them probably won't.

Good point, though, that it could bring in new listeners to jazz...but I can't say I enjoy listening to these types of remixes. :confused: Must be my "old school" style of listening. :)

-= N =-
NP: Arabesque, Henry Mancini
 
That last part actually works both ways. I'm enjoying the Verve Remixed thing enough that I've considered picking up a CD by a couple of the DJ's who contributed to it. (I'm surprised at that--techno is/was definitely NOT my thing...)

I don't know, it's sort of a "common ground" thing. Going back to Brasil '66 and Equinox for a minute: the early Brasil '66 stuff presents a sort of meeting place for people of fairly diverse interests. I like it in large part for its the emphasis on jazz-oriented piano playing, whereas I get the idea that Harry and Mike are more interested its adult-pop aspects, and otherwise seem to be a lot more interested in rock than I am. The first few Brasil '66 albums are something we can (mostly) agree on because they contain the "best of both worlds," so to speak. Same with Herb's Warm album. Meanwhile, I enjoy the jazz(y) sound of the Verve Remixed CD while most other people my age are probably more focused on the DJs' work. Yet we--I and other young folks--both enjoy the Verve Remixed CD. As I said in another post, the ethics of remixing and overdubbing ARE shaky... yet I find it hard to fault this opportunity for finding musical common ground with people of my own age group.

(Rather than old fogies like yourself. :wink:)

- William
 
I like it in large part for its the emphasis on jazz-oriented piano playing, whereas I get the idea that Harry and Mike are more interested its adult-pop aspects, and otherwise seem to be a lot more interested in rock than I am.

You're right to an extent...most of my musical taste does run to rock, and I can't really say I'm a big jazz fan, but I love Sergio's piano playing. Sometimes I'll listen to a song and try to listen ONLY to the piano, then go back again and listen to the "whole thing." (I do the same thing with drums.) I like acoustic piano the best, which was the biggest problem I have had with later Sergio albums. Not enough acoustic piano. (or "none," in a lot of cases!)
 
Mike-You probably know of it's existance,but if you enjoy Sergio's piano,try Cannonball Adderley's bossa nova album,uniquely entitled "Cannonball's Bossa Nova". It's one of those jazz albums that most people not into jazz can tolerate;it is Sergio's American debut recording,and really cooks! And someone in another thread was talking about Sergio doing Jobim,it goes back at least to 1962 at this recording. Extra material includes tracks especially recorded for 45RPM issue for possible jukebox play. Mac
 
Mac, thanks, I'll give that a try. I had heard of it but have never heard it!

Been looking for something new (or old) to buy lately, so this could be it.
 
I need to find this one myself. One of my favorite Mendes albums is the one that goes by many names (which features Bud Shank and Wanda de Sah). My LP was In A Brazilian Bag (on the Tower label), and the CD is that Best of Brasil '65 reissue on Curb. This is probably my favorite form of the Bossa Nova.

-= N =-
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom