Herb Alpert "Beyond" CD - I think I've got a fake!

[Bernoullis]

Oh boy, do I feel embarrassed! I bid for and won a copy of the "Beyond" CD on ebay in December 2008. Was very pleased with myself and even said so on these forums - cringe! Another ebay user contacted me and asked if my CD had a spelling mistake on it - I checked, and it does.

Right near the bottom of the CD is the line:

"All Rights Reserved. Mae by Canyon Records, Inc. Japan"

"Mae" instead of "Made". Darn. I never spotted that.

Is there anyone here with a known genuine version who can tell me that this spelling mistake is/isn't on their CD?

Yours dejectedly, and embarrassedly,

Bernoullis

 

[Harry]

Heh! I'm the other eBayer who contacted you!

In turn, i've contacted our own Steve Sidoruk who has a known genuine copy of the D32Y issue of BEYOND. He sent me a picture that looks like this:

We were both victims of this seller. I'm currently in negotiations with them, trying to work out a refund. Emails have been slow however.

Note that Steve's genuine copy has a JASRAC logo that all Japanese discs had. It also has the AM+ logo and "digital" fonts for track numbers. The disc sold by the eBayer has none of that.

Harry

 

[Bernoullis]

Harry,

Well, I only feel marginally better knowing that an A&M forum moderator got scammed by this idiot too.

Who are the folk that you are currently in e-mail comms with? Let me know via the ebay link if you don't wish to discuss publicly. Since it was December when I purchased mine I don't know where I stand re time limits, but I am not a happy bear at the moment.

And thanks for your swift reply - much appreciated!

UPDATE - Ah, I see from the other mail where you're at with regard to the comms. Would be pleased if you could keep me up to date with progress ...........

 

[Harry]

Harry,

Well, I only feel marginally better knowing that an A&M forum moderator got scammed by this idiot too.

It was one of those impulse moments. I just happened to scan through some eBay items, saw this with a "Buy It Now" option and pulled the trigger.

I should have known better than that, but we all make errors in judgment one in awhile.

The disc that I assume both Bernoullis and I received is actually a pretty good fake in some respects. It has the catalog number inscribed around the center hub, and it has legitimate looking IFPI numbers.

The thing that gave it away was the sameness of the font and the lack of the logos at the bottom.

Here is the fake:

Harry

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Wow, that IS good. Are there any other giveaways that it's a fake besides those mentioned? The "Mae" goof is not such a huge deal...I mean even our beloved A&M Records spelled Herb's name as ALBERT an LP jacket.

I would almost argue that it is not a fake, just a different "press run" but since I can't look at it in person, I'd hate to say. What about the booklet/tray card? Any dead giveaways there?

 

[Harry]

The booklet and back insert look pretty good - very close to the correct kind of shiny paper. The back insert even has perforations on the two spines. The only "fakeness" on these printed items is a slight fuzziness, but nothing I haven't experienced with different press runs with genuine items.

The disc printing has an ever-so-slightly fuzzy edge about it, almost like it were a magazine picture made up of little dots that are visible on the edges of letters.

The disc is a genuine silver-colored disc on both sides, so it's not a tell-tale CD-R with blue dye.

Harry

 

[Harry]

Oh, and the A&M logo on the disc is the old-style logo, not the '80s version with the "RECORDS" outside the box.

Harry

 

[Steven J. Gross]

How are you positive that it's a fake? I know a lot of asian products come mispelled, etc... Couldn't this have been a first run of the real thing? Seems a bit elaborate to do that much work for a few obscure CDs...

 

[Steven J. Gross]

Regarding spelling errors, I have a Herb Alpert/TJB Greatest Hits LP with Herb's name spelled "Albert" on the spine...

 

[Harry]

Gee - the support here is a bit underwhelming!

Counterfeiters have gotten really good at making fake CDs look genuine. It's what they do!

BEYOND was a very limited issue in the early days of CDs and only came out in Japan, yet this seller in the USA seems to have an unending supply of these to sell, all in perfect shape.

The logos are wrong, there are spelling errors, and it doesn't *look* totally genuine.

I never mentioned the minor sound issues that could also be clues.

It plays fine in most of my CD players, however, my main SONY player has a problem around track 3. That SONY player sometimes has problems with CD-R's around track 3, so it puts this CD into the suspect category.

Harry

 

[Bernoullis]

Harry, I agree, the 'support' is disappointing.

Steven, unfortunately all the evidence, much to my chagrin, points towards fake/counterfeit. Whilst I am aware that the 'real McCoy', the original CD, is pretty rare I have wanted one for ages and was pleased to win a bidding auction to get one. But I hadn't ever seen a real one, so was unaware of the look of a genuine item. I guess I let my enthusiasm get in the way of hard questions.

As Harry so clearly points out, there are notable differences between these 2 discs, and the odd availability certainly raises pertinent questions. So ....

FORMAL REQUEST
Harry, I would like to request that A&M Corner formally starts a separate section to deal with the problem of fakes and counterfeits. I feel sure I have read about other Herb stuff here being the subject of conuterfeiting, so could I suggest a thread (or article?) per album, showing a good full size scan of the real item, together with images of known 'ringers'. This would include, of course, scans of covers, inserts and the like. Zoomed images of specific problem areas could also be thrown into the mix to highlight clues. And perhaps you could kick it off with good old 'Beyond'. Have separate sections for vinyl, cassette, reel-to-reel, video cassette, CD and DVD if necessary (though I guess it will be the latter 2 that predominate?).

What do you think? Would those here who are fortunate to own the genuine article, and even the non-genuine article, be willing to contribute info and scans so that 'keenies' like myself don't make idiots of themselves again?

Over to you all!

 

[Steven J. Gross]

Here's the Pony/Canyon official website... language barrier for me- maybe someone has the language translator software. I'm very curious myself...

http://www.ponycanyon.co.jp/

 

[Steve Sidoruk]

I would like to request that A&M Corner formally starts a separate section to deal with the problem of fakes and counterfeits. I feel sure I have read about other Herb stuff here being the subject of conuterfeiting, so could I suggest a thread (or article?) per album, showing a good full size scan of the real item, together with images of known 'ringers'. This would include, of course, scans of covers, inserts and the like. Zoomed images of specific problem areas could also be thrown into the mix to highlight clues. And perhaps you could kick it off with good old 'Beyond'. Have separate sections for vinyl, cassette, reel-to-reel, video cassette, CD and DVD if necessary (though I guess it will be the latter 2 that predominate?).

Yes, well, uh, the Moderators and major contributors - we're all "volunteers" here and what you suggest would take unknown hours of work to do. Not to mention server space for all those graphic files. We do, in fact, pass along suspicious items here as we uncover them. Beyond that, it has to be - "buyer beware." After a career of almost 30 years in law enforcement, I have even less than a zero tolerance for thieves of any kind, but some of these scammers and fakers are very good at what they do. And modern technology makes it even easier for them. I do encourage those who have been swindled to report the fraud to e-Bay or whoever runs the listing service and if you can't manage to get your money back, maybe you can get the seller de-listed there.

 

[Steven J. Gross]

Gee - the support here is a bit underwhelming!
Harry

Not at all Harry- I wouldn't be sitting here at 4am if it wasn't interesting. Looking at the pics, and I'm no expert, the catalog numbers are the same, meaning little I know..regarding the sound..I've had some pretty disappointing CDs in my life, Japanese too...

Here's my idea- the one in question may have been a first "pressing", and if you notice the "Master's Series" stamp on the authentic one- this could be a second release of it...?

Maybe they wanted to "get it right"..?

 

[Mike Blakesley]

this seller in the USA seems to have an unending supply of these to sell, all in perfect shape.

This is probably the best indicator that it is indeed a phony.

I'm just surprised at HOW good it is. Usually (at least in the examples that have been put up here) it's blatantly obvious to even a fairly casual observer that a phony is a phony, but in this case if I was to run into one of these in a store, I'd probably think it was the real thing.

Mike B.
Throwing some support behind Harry

 

[Harry]

The other anachronism is the fact that this "fake" includes an IFPI number around the hub. IFPI is an international recording industry organization, and while Japan is a member, I've never seen an IFPI number on any of the other D32Y series discs that I DO own.

It wasn't until more recently that IFPI numbers showed up on Japanese discs.

Harry

 

[Mr Bill]

I'm just surprised at HOW good it is.

This seller has probably simply duped a genuine CD he acquired himself -- and is probably doing this to rcoup his losses. Not to make a joke of the matter, but you know how much the genuine article CAN go for on eBay!

I myself own a "copy" made from an original Japanese CD, so, yes, it sounds great. When the opportunity presents itself I WILL buy the genuine article... just waiting on Herb and S!F to make it so!

--Mr Bill

 

[Harry]

From my email conversations with the seller, I get the feeling that this person is not the originator of the disc - that they've got a supplier somewhere who's doing the duping.

Unless I'm totally wrong about it, I get the feeling that the seller is somewhat ignorant on the matter and was himself/herself duped into thinking these were originals.

But then I've also run across the old "haven't heard from them in days" syndrome. That either means they're in "retreat" mode, or are possibly themselves in contact with THEIR supplier.

We'll see...

Harry
...getting ready to pull the old negative feedback trigger along with contacting PayPal/eBay, online...

 

[gameenjoyer]

Sorry to hear you got cheated like this Bernoullis. I hope you didn't pay too much for it. But hey, on the bright side, at least you have Beyond on CD. The music is just as awesome on a fake copy as on a real copy, right?

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Sorry to hear you got cheated like this Bernoullis. I hope you didn't pay too much for it. But hey, on the bright side, at least you have Beyond on CD. The music is just as awesome on a fake copy as on a real copy, right?

The music IS great...but it's still fraud. Guys like the seller, or the supplier or whoever's responsible for this whole deal are banking on loyal fans feeling so happy to have a copy of their favorite music that they'll overlook the fact that they're victims of a counterfeit scheme, if they can even detect that they are. This was a very professional effort that almost went unnoticed, but that and the fact that there's a legitimate market for the product don't make it right. I mean, where does it stop? What other unscrupulous enterprises is this supplier involved with?

Bottom line...somebody's a crook...maybe not a Bernie Madoff, but who knows?


Dan

 

[Harry]

OK, I've now left negative feedback for the seller who goes by the eBay ID of "lifefoodchain". Avoid at all costs.

Harry

 

[Bernoullis]

Steve S,

.... we're all "volunteers" here and what you suggest would take unknown hours of work to do. Not to mention server space for all those graphic files.

And I certainly didn't wish to imply that you weren't volunteers! I just thought a separate section of threads with scans of good and 'bad' examples would prove enlightening, and very useful. I wasn't trying to create work for anyone, honest!

Server space? You mean there are likely to be that many Herb and/or TJB fakes going? I guess you were thinking server space for ALL A&M artists? OK .....................

I would happily buy a S!F version of 'Beyond' - strangely, no one has ever been able to explain actually why several of Herb's releases were only on this Pony Canyon label .... in ridiculously small quantities. Don't they normally want to generate income from their 'art'?

 

[Harry]

strangely, no one has ever been able to explain actually why several of Herb's releases were only on this Pony Canyon label .... in ridiculously small quantities. Don't they normally want to generate income from their 'art'?

Simple. The BEYOND, SRO and BRASS ARE COMIN' (the three rarest CDs), were issued in the age when CDs were a new technology and very few people were buying the discs. The Japanese, at that time, leaders in the electronics field, wanted to take advantage of their new "toys" with software, and managed to license and produce a number of CDs at limited quantities to test the market waters.

Obviously, the results were that some discs sold well and others didn't. BEYOND happened to be a title that didn't sell all that well in the new format - it was just a near-current title in the A&M catalog that got a limited mastering to CD.

Pony Canyon, at that time, was the company licensed in japan to issue A&M product.

Harry

 

[Bernoullis]

Thanks for the info Harry! Explains Japan ....... but what about the rest of the world? And all the time since then? No re-issue? Heaven knows there must be some money in that!

On a different tack - this weekend I shall be e-mailing our 'mutual acquaintance'. Not expecting much of a response, and then a 'chat' with ebay follows, I guess .........

 

[Harry]

Thanks for the info Harry! Explains Japan ....... but what about the rest of the world? And all the time since then? No re-issue? Heaven knows there must be some money in that!

We fans of course would like to see a reissue, and there's hope someday, but back in the '80s, as CDs were becoming popular, BEYOND was fading in popularity as each year went by, so there was no interest at A&M in re-releasing the album.

Heck, if SOUNDS LIKE and NINTH, two really good selling albums never got released back then, why would BEYOND?

Harry