🎵 AotW Classics Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass - NINTH

What is your favorite track?

  • A Banda

    Votes: 5 12.8%
  • My Heart Belongs To Daddy

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • The Trolley Song

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Happening

    Votes: 3 7.7%
  • Bud

    Votes: 7 17.9%
  • Love So Fine

    Votes: 7 17.9%
  • The Love Nest

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • With a Little Help From My Friends

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • Flea Bag

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • Cowboys & Indians

    Votes: 5 12.8%
  • Carmen

    Votes: 6 15.4%

  • Total voters
    39
I have a lot of favorites here, but I went with "A Banda". In fact, by coincidence, I've played two different versions of "A Banda" in the past several hours: one by Sergio Mendes from his Favorite Things album, and the other from Astrud Gilberto's "Beach Samba".

"Cowboys & Indians" was a favorite from when I was growing up, as it led up to "Carmen". "Love So Fine", "Love Nest", "My Heart Belongs...", "The Happening"...all favorites.
 
I guess this was the first of what I could only describe as the 'watered down' TJB, mainly because of the so-called 'intimate' sound of close miking. I never had a problem with the songs themselves (except for "The Love Nest", which I completely abhor and detest) but I simply don't have the itch to hear this when I have LPs such as WHIPPED CREAM, SOUNDS LIKE, SRO, WHAT NOW or GOING PLACES to choose from... and they have plenty of echo in the horn!

Some of my preferred cuts include "My Heart Belongs To Daddy", the hauntingly beautiful "Bud", the frolicking "Flea Bag" (which I've found myself subconsciously whistling at work for reasons unbeknownst to me), "The Happening", and of course, the absolutely hilarious rendition of "Carmen" (aimed at Bizet snobs everywhere :wink:).

As for everybody's fan fave, "A Banda", my take on it is thus: I enjoy it in the confluence of the hits, but I don't single it out too often. And if that's a little too hard to comprehend, I'll sum it up this way:
"A Banda" - good, but I've heard better.

Overall, not the best, but not a bad album either. 3 1/2 stars.

Tony
 
What's weird about this album is, normally if I hear the first couple of nanoseconds of any TJB song I can instantly shout out what song it is, what album it's from and (in many cases) who wrote it, but on this album I tend to get "The Love Nest," "Cowboys and Indians" and "Flea Bag" confused. But I like all of them a lot!
 
I think "Ninth" is an excellent album. It has strong material and shows a very confident artist that has developed a lot since the early albums. The relaxed playing and close-up miking of the horn with less reverb than earlier is actually ahead of its time. There is a lot of variation arrangement wise and of course a certain tongue-in-cheek attitude displayed, especially on "Carmen". One should remember that the album is of another time. The TJB were not just a "serious music group", the humorous/show/entertainment elements were very important as well.

- greetings from the north -
Martin
 
Not a fave.

The music and arrangements are not nearly as interesting and creative as the peak period [!!Going Places!! -- to -- ...Sounds Like...]. Missing are all the twists, turns, and oddities that made TjB music unique -- making these performances far easier to duplicate by the TjB-copycat bands, which, by late 1967 were probably at their peak. Every track has essentially the same instrumentation: the entire band + marimba/vibes + sweetening here and there -- suggesting the LP is more akin to a demo or casual performance than a polished-up final release.

Herb's playing is mostly lacklustre relative to the previous 4 LPs. His tone on Love So Fine is downright awful. This may be a combination of close miking and no reverb, as Martin mentioned; it would also appear as though Herb was purposely limiting the amount of air and support through the horn which, with brass instruments, generally adversely impacts timbre,

That said, I think Bud is one of the most beautiful TjB songs committed to wax. (Aside from Herb's vocal numbers, I can think of no other TjB piece where the trumpet takes the back seat.) Although the Beatles cover goes nowhere, as Cap'n B stated, the trombone and cello harmonies are pretty + the "big band" release is cool (actually, if one would've turned down the "stomp guitar" the recording would probably come off better). The Love Nest is a good side 2 opener; but Flea Bag and Cowboys and Indians , to me, seem derivative of previously used TjB musical hooks and fragments. The Trolly Song does well to capture the darker feel of the LP; good arrangement, actually -- keeping with Herb's identifiable style of making a ballad out of an up-tempo song (as well as vice versa).

As a kid I played the grooves out of this LP -- along with all '60s TjB LPs; and it was great to finally have a full-colour TjB LP with an A+ cover to boot. However, as an adult, it's rarely played, as are the first two TjB LPs and The Brass Are Comin'.

TjB fans will like the LP, of course; but, Herb and the TjB would never have achieved a musical legacy based entirely on the quality exhibited by this LP.

(And, yes, it's plausible that the A & B sections of Love So Fine are edited. Nevertheless, that tight about-face transition is easily executed by musicians as talented as the TjB.)
 
JO said:
Not a fave.

Herb's playing is mostly lacklustre relative to the previous 4 LPs. His tone on Love So Fine is downright awful. This may be a combination of close miking and no reverb, as Martin mentioned; it would also appear as though Herb was purposely limiting the amount of air and support through the horn which, with brass instruments, generally adversely impacts timbre,

As a kid I played the grooves out of this LP -- along with all '60s TjB LPs; and it was great to finally have a full-colour TjB LP with an A+ cover to boot. However, as an adult, it's rarely played, as are the first two TjB LPs and The Brass Are Comin'.

TjB fans will like the LP, of course; but, Herb and the TjB would never have achieved a musical legacy based entirely on the quality exhibited by this LP.

I agree with you very much on the specifically quoted comments...

1. A trumpet is intended to be played with a resonant and open tone. It is a wind instrument. So, if there is a limited amount of air going through the horn, it would definitely produce a weak, closed, and and feeble sound. I do not have any idea if that was the case on this recording, but if I were to find out that such were the case, it would absolutely explain the sound you describe.

2. The album cover is very interesting and the photos are very good. Nicely done. I have examined it often - still do even nowadays.

3. I definitely agree with you on the legacy building concept. If average people who know and remember Herb and the TJB when they were a household word back in the sixties would be asked today, they would mostly not recognize this album nor its contents, nor count it as a significant part of the TJB legacy. They would doubtless recognize the sound as the TJB, but not because of anything this album offers. This is an album for fans and represents a vital part of any TJB collection, but it would not be a recognized part of the fame and legacy of the TJB. There are none of the big hits here, nor the sound that got all the radio airplay and introduced the stylistic and sonic uniqueness and originality that does, in fact, define and create the legacy.

Very good observations, JO.
 
Okay, I guess I'm in the minority, but I actually like this album far more than the two that came before it. I really can't put my finger on why, but that's just the truth. I had to vote for Carmen as my favorite song on the album. It is a true classic in my opinion.
 
Don't feel bad. I'm in the minority as well. I'm one of the few Herb fans who doesn't understand all the buzz about the WARM album. I have it, and I enjoy several cuts off of it, but if I had to pick, I'd take NINTH over WARM on any given day(I know I'm going to get some flack over this, but oh well...)

Honestly,
Tony
 
I feel I am committing a form suicide by sharing this; the cover of “Herb Alperts Ninth” (IMHO) was more creative and flamboyant than the music on the album. While I prefer it to WARM it’s almost as if Herb was in stage one of his sleep pattern with this album. There are bright spots, “The Happening” is bouncy, I like “My Heart Belongs to Daddy” but it’s almost as if Herb was running a marathon and was finally running out of gas. And “With A little Help From My Friends” I can’t relate to in a musical sense by any means.
 
Thanks, Cap'd D. We're both seasoned trumpeters who've appreciated Herb's unique playing, so I think we can both throw a trumpet-based technical angle on his music. Ultimately, however, the ears are the best test: Play side 2 of Herb Alpert's Ninth and then play side 2 of SRO or What Now My Love...the differences in playing technique and combo arrangement inventiveness are night and day.

I think one principal reason that Warm is such a beloved LP is that it is unlike any preceding TjB LP. In fact, its sound bears little resemblance to the "brass" feel of previous TjB LPs -- owing to: (1) the obvious absence of Edmonson's trombone; (2) Herb's employment of what appears to be a different electric bass player and drummer (on the majority of the selections, at least); and (3) building arrangements that emphasized a "studio orchestra" at the expense of a combo. It's really his first solo LP and as such it's an exciting listen. Additionally, the two housewife-friendly Muzaky vocal numbers fit better within the orchestral context.

Nothing wrong with committing suicide out here, David -- I did just that about a year ago, and recently came back to life...just call me the e-Zombie. As for the cover -- easily the most creative and artistically satisfying of all the TjB covers. This was around the time A&M switched graphic artists: from Pete Whorf to Tom Wilkes (check out his first Baja Marimba Band cover, Fowl Play -- indescribable!). I speculate that the prominent green and blue colours were specifically requested to represent the two songs that Bud Coleman was reportedly working on at the time of his death (discussed on another thread). I understand the working titles of each were "Blue" and "Green" and that his wife, who shares authorship, merged and edited the two songs into Bud. Perhaps some of the vets out here could further elaborate in the event I mangled the story...
 
These are singles from the Ninth album in Scandinavian pressings. The serial numbers indicate that they were released by Polydor/D.G. The covers were changed probably because money was saved by using only two colors instead of four when printing.

- greetings from the north -
Martin

3.jpg
 
I continue to enjoy this album to this day . I think at the time Herb was in the process of cranking out a couple albums a year for the TJB, I don't think that the amount of time put into this album would have equaled the time put into , say, Going Places. And as far as Herb's playing is concerned , it's been well documented that he began to have chop problems around this time. To my ears, he sounds like a guy who, at that time, was not practicing a hell of a lot. As I've stated before in previous threads on this subject, I don't think there was any conscious decision on Herb's part to put less air through his horn. He was out of practice during this period , for whatever reason. Hence the need for a really "close miked"
kind of sound. It still sounds like Herb, but he's working a lot harder.
 
I love all the TJB albums from What Now My Love to Coney Island. Every album has a different mood. I don't like one mood better than the other, I just accept the fact that each album is different, as well as enjoyable to listen to for me.

Despite what anyone might say about Herb's tone, I think the Brass was at a peak at this time, and this album is a product of that. That said, I don't care too much for the opener, Abanda. I think it's a little too corny to open an album with.

My Heart Belongs To Daddy is tight as hell, especially with Ceroli's rock solid drumming. The Happening seems to be a favorite around here, but I don't think it comes close to being the best track on the album.

Bud is just an outstanding haunting ballad.

Love So Fine is one of my favorite songs. The melody is great, and the Brass plays it beautifully.

I always felt The Love Nest was a classic TJB song. I don't like the strings on the bridge though.

Although I don't go to play Help From My Friends too often, I think it's a great arrangement. I love the color that Julius' vibes add to the tune, as well as the way the trombone was used in this arrangement.

Flea Bag is just another good TJB tune, as is Cowboys And Indians. The closer however is one of my favorite TJB tunes. I think it's rather interesting that during the whole tune, their is no key change. Herb liked to do that a lot in most other TJB songs which were about 2-3 minutes long. This piece is about 4 minutes, and the main melody gets play 3 or 4 times, and it remains in the same key all times. It's great though.

This is a very moody album, but I love it. It doesn't have to be "happy" or "bright" to be good.
 
As for the cover -- easily the most creative and artistically satisfying of all the TjB covers.
I agree with that. This album came out at the time when the "album cover" was coming into its own as an art form, which was sparked big-time by the Beatles SGT. PEPPER album. I don't know why the following couple of Brass albums didn't continue the sprit of creativity this album has...outside of THE BRASS ARE COMIN' they are pretty bland in comparison.
 
rickster said:
And as far as Herb's playing is concerned , it's been well documented that he began to have chop problems around this time. To my ears, he sounds like a guy who, at that time, was not practicing a hell of a lot. As I've stated before in previous threads on this subject, I don't think there was any conscious decision on Herb's part to put less air through his horn. He was out of practice during this period , for whatever reason. Hence the need for a really "close miked"
kind of sound. It still sounds like Herb, but he's working a lot harder.

He is having embouchure problems - I would almost guarantee you he is having what some call "blown out embouchure, or blown out lip."

That means the sensitivity and flexibility of the lips is compromised - probably due to overplaying and in need of much needed rest. This creates fuzziness in the tone, and difficulty in producing an open and resonant tone. The lips have lost flexibility, suppleness, and the ability to vibrate freely, and the tone suffers accordingly.

I know what this is like - I've been there...

After some rest and as I understand some work with Carmine Caruso, his sound and playing skills came back.
 
Captaindave said:
He is having embouchure problems - I would almost guarantee you he is having what some call "blown out embouchure, or blown out lip."

That means the sensitivity and flexibility of the lips is compromised - probably due to overplaying and in need of much needed rest. This creates fuzziness in the tone, and difficulty in producing an open and resonant tone. The lips have lost flexibility, suppleness, and the ability to vibrate freely, and the tone suffers accordingly.
This makes logical sense.

Cap'n D is right -- and I know that feeling as well...when the lips do not freely vibrate, the tone loses its elasticity. Compare his tone on And The Angels Sing or South Of The Border with Love So Fine...while the former reveals beautiful shimmering-metallic timbres, the latter is a dull, lifeless pitch. Some rest and gentle mouth piece buzzing will help to rejuvenate the lips.

I don't buy the not-practicing thing. I'm confident the guy was always playing -- he was an international star bandleader for crystsakes and his trumpet was/is his bread and butter!! Nevertheless, as he became more committed to being a businessman (and "personality"), his personal time had to become compromised -- and it would make logical sense that private work in the Arban's book would take a back seat to scheduled practice sessions with the brass. In the re-issue booklets Herb is reported as saying he likes spontaneity, suggesting LP recording session rehearsals were kept to a minimum. But the group still had to rehearse and polish up for live gigs, which appear to have included arrangement re-tooling of the older or more familiar numbers.
 
JO -- some good points as always , but there IS a difference between "always playing" , and sensible practice. I DO think his time was compromised at this point in his career, and that practicing definitely took a back seat to other concerns. There was a fullness of tone absolutely missing from his playing during this period, and between touring, and cranking out the two albums a year and everything else going on , his tone suffered. I caught the band around this time ('67) at the Yale Bowl in New Haven, Connecticut (a HUGE venue) and I would swear that Tonni Kalash was covering some of his lead parts, and Herb was right on top of the mike.
 
rickster said:
...but there IS a difference between "always playing" , and sensible practice...

Ha! I KNEW you or Cap'n D was gonna have me for lunch on that one! Jeeze.

Of course you are 100% correct-o-mundo! I play all the time (usually sitting on my couch, walkin around the seashore, in the backyard, etc.), but carrying out the disciplined regimented program needed to heighten one's playing skills (including: (1) a chair, (2) a music stand, (3) a metronome, and (4) a technical studies book) -- I simply don't do daily (i.e., as much as I should). With the organ or drums, for comparison, even if you don't play or practice, your finger and wrist muscles still receive some sort of daily activity; on the other hand, with the horn if one doesn't play, the lip muscles (embouchure) receive no workout -- as there is no other activity to challenge the lips the way a mouthpiece can (er, well, sorta, HEH-HEH-HEH...but that's a very different embouchure!). This is precisely why it takes brass players a few months to get back into shape after a lengthy hiatus -- compared to the normal "couple weeks" for a vet drummer or organist.

Excellent point, Rickster.
 
Captaindave said:
JO said:
TjB fans will like the LP, of course; but, Herb and the TjB would never have achieved a musical legacy based entirely on the quality exhibited by this LP.



I definitely agree with you on the legacy building concept. If average people who know and remember Herb and the TJB when they were a household word back in the sixties would be asked today, they would mostly not recognize this album nor its contents, nor count it as a significant part of the TJB legacy. They would doubtless recognize the sound as the TJB, but not because of anything this album offers. This is an album for fans and represents a vital part of any TJB collection, but it would not be a recognized part of the fame and legacy of the TJB. There are none of the big hits here, nor the sound that got all the radio airplay and introduced the stylistic and sonic uniqueness and originality that does, in fact, define and create the legacy.

Very good observations, JO.

Nope, can't buy it...not a legacy building album? THIS ALBUM IS HERB ALPERT'S LEGACY, at least from the TJB standpoint. It's really a symphony in 12 movements. It's the lasting testament as to just how versatile the TJB sound, as it had developed by this time, really is. There isn't a single song on this album that doesn't work...each is unique, each showcases the uniqueness of the Tijuana Brass. The sound worked on ballads, marches, show tunes, introspective tone poems and pop tunes...it even stands up to self-parody.

My sister liked this album. My mother liked this album. My grandmother liked this album. My teachers liked this album(except for my wannabe jazzman band director, you guessed it, a trumpet player...). Even my 80+ year-old great aunt liked this album.

WCAOD may have started the ball rolling, and GP certainly cemented the TJB's place in history; but those albums HAD to be groundbreakers. The variety of styles and the amount of creative effort that went into those albums is second to none, but the real hits from both those albums really don't sound a whole lot different than the songs on this album. The instrumentation is basically the same...Herb's tone may be a little brighter on the earlier albums, but that's a subjective thing...to my ears, he's more expressive here.

By 1967, the TJB sound was solidly established, and it was time to showcase it. This album does that. SRO is my favorite TJB album; I've said that many times...but this is the album I'd play to introduce or even reacquaint someone to the TJB to underscore just how much a part of our culture they had become.

It may be stale bread to some, but it's a tasty baguette to me.


Dan
 
While there is no doubt that probably Herb himself, and A & M would regard the TLB, SOTB, WCAOD and GP as more significant albums than Ninth, S.R.O and Sounds Like due to the deletion of these last mentioned titles quite early on, Ninth was still a number two album on the Billboard chart, and in that respect a big seller that deserves it place in American popular music history.

- greetings from the north -
Martin
 
Back
Top Bottom