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Kiss Me the Way You Did Last Night

ThaFunkyFakeTation

Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
MIA is sub-par. Aside from Beechwood 4-5789, Touch Me When We're Dancing & (Want You) Back In My Life Again the rest of the MIA tracks should've been left in the vault. Seriously, the rest of the tracks were lifeless and really dated for the early-1980's. And Those Good Old Dreams really doesn't remind me of Top of the World.

Seriously, why were the best tracks of the sessions left in the vault? Kiss Me The Way You Did Last Night, The Uninvited Guest, Prime Time Love, Your Baby Doesn't Love You Anymore & Honolulu City Lights feel more alive than I Believe You & Strength of a Woman.

You give "Want You Back" more credit than I do but I agree otherwise. "Want You" just feels like someone desperately trying to be current without really knowing how to be current. Richard might have had it had he not then bathed the tune in the elevator strings. They kill whatever "cool" he may have been going for. Even Karen's not good on it. She sounds utterly detached and that never happens. The incessant doubling doesn't help. Even "Touch Me", though it charted decently, is pretty "elevator", really. Those old-time strings really cheese it out. Were it not for that vocal arrangement and Karen's lead, I'd be fine without that one too.

"The Uninvited Guest" is cool were it not for the chorale. I really wish he'd just have done the stacking with another female singer. There are more than a few that could have done it. No, they aren't Karen but as I said earlier, they could have done a very good job and not sounded as dated "square" as the Chorale nearly always does. "Prime Time Love" is legit fun and it actually grooves. That vocal arrangement too is just so nailed. Richard alone in the stacking is highly listenable. He didn't overproduce that one at all and it's all the better for it. Same thing with "Baby" and the strings kinda work there too. Not everything needed strings and he nearly always used them.

"Good Old Dreams" is yet another tune that's redeemed only by the vocal arrangement. Such ear candy. That's the only thing about that tune that works. The rest is just entirely too sleepy and the lyric is all the kind of thing that no one should have been recording who had an eye on the Pop charts at that point. Maybe that would have been better aimed at the Country chart instead. The Country audience has always been more lyrically aware and it is a very sweet lyric. Still, though, it would likely have been just too much of an elevator tune for that too.

Of course, we'd said this lots of times already but there really was a very good album there or at least enough of one to make the whole experience better; they just didn't compile it.

Ed
 

Mark-T

Well-Known Member
Thread Starter
You give "Want You Back" more credit than I do but I agree otherwise. "Want You" just feels like someone desperately trying to be current without really knowing how to be current. Richard might have had it had he not then bathed the tune in the elevator strings. They kill whatever "cool" he may have been going for. Even Karen's not good on it. She sounds utterly detached and that never happens. The incessant doubling doesn't help. Even "Touch Me", though it charted decently, is pretty "elevator", really. Those old-time strings really cheese it out. Were it not for that vocal arrangement and Karen's lead, I'd be fine without that one too.

"The Uninvited Guest" is cool were it not for the chorale. I really wish he'd just have done the stacking with another female singer. There are more than a few that could have done it. No, they aren't Karen but as I said earlier, they could have done a very good job and not sounded as dated "square" as the Chorale nearly always does. "Prime Time Love" is legit fun and it actually grooves. That vocal arrangement too is just so nailed. Richard alone in the stacking is highly listenable. He didn't overproduce that one at all and it's all the better for it. Same thing with "Baby" and the strings kinda work there too. Not everything needed strings and he nearly always used them.

"Good Old Dreams" is yet another tune that's redeemed only by the vocal arrangement. Such ear candy. That's the only thing about that tune that works. The rest is just entirely too sleepy and the lyric is all the kind of thing that no one should have been recording who had an eye on the Pop charts at that point. Maybe that would have been better aimed at the Country chart instead. The Country audience has always been more lyrically aware and it is a very sweet lyric. Still, though, it would likely have been just too much of an elevator tune for that too.

Of course, we'd said this lots of times already but there really was a very good album there or at least enough of one to make the whole experience better; they just didn't compile it.

Ed
You make some good points, Ed. Tell us- What would the album look like if you chose ten cuts to compile?
 

GaryAlan

Well-Known Member
To be sure, MIA is a perplexing album. In order to assess it, I have to pretend that I have never heard the MIA outtakes.
How then to assess the MIA album without knowing what was hidden 'in the vault' ?
Did the poor USA sales of the more creative Passage album frighten the record company ?
Did the aborted-- much more creative KC solo songs-- frighten the record company ?
Judging from recently posted photos of Karen and Richard (from 1978 TV rehearsals in Germany),
it is altogether clear that, even then, Karen was in very poor physical condition (and Richard, to an extent).
I hate to trash Made In America, not because I love the album, but only
because there seems to be too much we are unaware of behind the scenes....
By the way, I am a fan of the song Because We Are In Love....as it's an interesting piece....
 

GDB2LV

Well-Known Member
It had been 5 years since A Kind Of Hush. That’s an eternity for the record buying public. Most grew up, not buying music much anymore, the young kids didn’t know who they were at all. When MIA was finally released, the interest in Carpenters had dwindled to die hard fans, little else. It’s an okay compilation, with only 1 decent hit, and several nice album tracks. I love the album btw. The radio station programmers had changed their line up. Stations splintered into dance, rock, or R&B formats. It was all over the place. No air play=no sales. It was heart breaking to say the least. A super group that had so many great radio hits, had little to no sales after 1977. Just the Singles 1969-1973. It’s all they really needed.
 

ThaFunkyFakeTation

Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
You make some good points, Ed. Tell us- What would the album look like if you chose ten cuts to compile?

Challenge accepted! LOL!

This is the best I can do given what we know based on what's out there. I cannot make an album I'm totally happy with but I can make one I'm happier with:

1. Touch Me When We're Dancing
2. I Believe You
3. Kiss Me The Way You Did Last Night
4. Want You Back In My Life Again (not my thing but it's "up")
5. Somebody's Been Lyin'
6. You're the One (I know, I know, but it wouldn't be dated for 1980 at all...LOL!)
7. When It's Gone (It's Just Gone)
8. Honolulu City Lights
9. Beechwood 45789 (I tried to avoid this one but, again, it is an "up" thing in a sea of tunes that just aren't)
10. Because We Are in Love (it's not my thing but it was written for Karen's wedding and at the end of the record, it doesn't hurt as much)

The others were kicked out of my album for a variety of reasons. "Strength..." was removed because of its horrible subject matter. We've talked about this elsewhere and it's just...ugh. If you have a woman in your life like this, she needs serious help...LOL! The others were removed because they just aren't good enough to be in Karen's mouth. Heck, a few that made it in ("Somebody's Been Lyin"). "Beechwood..." is just a production failure for me. It wants to be fun but it...isn't. It's just too leaden and Karen sounds too mechanical due to the "doubling". She wasn't free to emote so she didn't. Her vocal performance should be cute and fun but it's not.

Again, I couldn't make this totally work but for my ears, it's better.

Ed
 

ThaFunkyFakeTation

Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
Challenge accepted! LOL!

This is the best I can do given what we know based on what's out there. I cannot make an album I'm totally happy with but I can make one I'm happier with:

1. Touch Me When We're Dancing
2. I Believe You
3. Kiss Me The Way You Did Last Night
4. Want You Back In My Life Again (not my thing but it's "up")
5. Somebody's Been Lyin'
6. You're the One (I know, I know, but it wouldn't be dated for 1980 at all...LOL!)
7. When It's Gone (It's Just Gone)
8. Honolulu City Lights
9. Beechwood 45789 (I tried to avoid this one but, again, it is an "up" thing in a sea of tunes that just aren't)
10. Because We Are in Love (it's not my thing but it was written for Karen's wedding and at the end of the record, it doesn't hurt as much)

The others were kicked out of my album for a variety of reasons. "Strength..." was removed because of its horrible subject matter. We've talked about this elsewhere and it's just...ugh. If you have a woman in your life like this, she needs serious help...LOL! The others were removed because they just aren't good enough to be in Karen's mouth. Heck, a few that made it in ("Somebody's Been Lyin"). "Beechwood..." is just a production failure for me. It wants to be fun but it...isn't. It's just too leaden and Karen sounds too mechanical due to the "doubling". She wasn't free to emote so she didn't. Her vocal performance should be cute and fun but it's not.

Again, I couldn't make this totally work but for my ears, it's better.

Ed

I wanted to edit this because I forgot a few but missed the window. Allow me a revision... Hey, you let Richard do it, why can't I? LOL!


1. Touch Me When We're Dancing
2. Prime Time Love
3. Kiss Me The Way You Did Last Night
4. Want You Back In My Life Again (not my thing but it's "up")
5. Your Baby Doesn't Love You Anymore
6. You're the One (I know, I know, but it wouldn't be dated for 1980 at all...LOL!)
7. When It's Gone (It's Just Gone)
8. Honolulu City Lights
9. I Believe You
10. Because We Are in Love (it's not my thing but it was written for Karen's wedding and at the end of the record, it doesn't hurt as much)

Okay, there...LOL!

Ed
 
Hi guys, how are you doing?
Hope everyone is fine.

MIA and the solo album are always on my mind as "what could have they done"?
Talking about MIA I really spent some time on these past few months trying to get the best playlist as it as possible with the songs we get to know.

As some have talked, Karen´s poor health and image, and Richard´s surely outdated decisions are some of the biggest issues but I surely think the Richard was out of reality over here. Don't get me wrong I think he's a musical genius and surely underestimated but it sounds like he completely forgot that Karen's voice was the REAL deal about the Carpenter's success.

Karen never sounded airier, weaker, and lost on the mix than on MIA.

All things said, thinking about that the year was 1981, we are talking about an era where people listened to the vinyl records track after track and side after side, that the Carpenters public has gotten older, diversity style, musically and lyric flow, song's structure, and comercially-wise I think my MIA would be:

Side One
1 - Those Good Old Dreams
2 - The Uninvited Guest
3 - (Want You) Back in My Life Again
4 - Where Do I Go From Here?
5 - Leave Yesterday Behind

Side Two
6 - Touch Me When We're Dancing
7 - Prime Time Love
8 - Ordinary Fool
9 - Two Lives
10 - Slow Dance

I do love "Kiss Me The Way You Did Last Night", more than any other song on MIA, but musically speaking it's really too similar to TMWWD and the latter has more commercial appeal, as it's proven itself on the charts. Things that TGOD and BINLA couldn´t do.

P.S.: In this scenario, Karen had released her solo album but she's returned to keep both works as she intended to.
 

tomswift2002

Well-Known Member
“Strength of a Woman” is too similar to “I Believe You”. Really, if one track didn’t do anything on the charts, why record and release another similar track, even as an album cut? By 1980-81 Richard should’ve realized that that sort of track was not hit material, unless it was arranged differently.

Really, “Made In America” is too similar to “A Kind of Hush”. “ Passage” was different because you had the different styles from the standard ballad, to opera, to calypso-like music (it would’ve been interesting to see how the Carpenters would’ve done with a dance number, and I don’t mean a slow waltz—-not disco, but something with a pounding dance beat—-I kind of wonder if Karen tried pushing for a disco/dance song on “Passage” and Richard shot it down, so that’s why she did a few disco/dance numbers on her own!)

If I was producing Made In America in 1981 I would have this line up for the album:

Side 1

Prime Time Love
Your Baby Doesn't Love You Anymore
Don't Try To Win Me Back
The Uninvited Guest
If I Had You (but remix it so that it ended cold)
Leave Yesterday Behind
(Want You) Back In My Life Again
Remember When Loving Took All Night
The Rainbow Connection

Side 2

My Body Keeps Changing My Mind (aside from keeping Karen's lead track, and the opening drum line (but with added reverb and more stereo separation), I'd re-record the instruments and backing vocals, so that this was a very upbeat dance track, kind of like what Richard did in 1991, but eliminating the disco entirely)
Lovelines
Beechwood 4-5789
Looking For Love* (again a re-record, possible a Richard lead)
I've Got Rhythm
You're Just In Love (just as it appears on As Time Goes By, with Richard dueting with Karen)
Touch Me When We're Dancing
Slow Dance


*if it was written I might even consider Something In Your Eyes with Richard on lead.

Single Releases:

Single #1 If I Had You/Don't Try To Win Me Back (this would be issued shortly after starting the project, as aside from some light editing, they are already ready to go)
Single #2 I've Got Rhythm/Leave Yesterday Behind (to tie-into the Carpenters 1980 TV special)
Single #3 My Body Keeps Changing My Mind/You're Just In Love (this would be released within the month prior to the album's release)
Single #4 The Rainbow Connection/Kiss Me The Way You Did Last Night
Single #5 Touch Me When We're Dancing/Making Love In The Afternoon
Single #6 Prime Time Love/Lovelines
Single #7 Your Baby Doesn't Love You Anymore/The Uninvited Guest
Single #8 (non-album single) Do You Hear What I Hear? (duet with Richard)/I Heard The Bells On Christmas Day (keep Karen's vocal track from 78, but re-record the instruments, including adding bells to the track)

With Singles 4, 5 & 8, the four tracks that were not on MIA would just be single-only tracks, with a possibility of hinting at what might come in the future, with the Christmas tracks being released somewhere around October/November 1980.
 

David A

Well-Known Member
[SNIP]

As some have talked, Karen´s poor health and image, and Richard´s surely outdated decisions are some of the biggest issues but I surely think the Richard was out of reality over here. Don't get me wrong I think he's a musical genius and surely underestimated but it sounds like he completely forgot that Karen's voice was the REAL deal about the Carpenter's success.

Karen never sounded airier, weaker, and lost on the mix than on MIA.

P.S.: In this scenario, Karen had released her solo album but she's returned to keep both works as she intended to.

Your comments here touch on something I've been thinking while reading the various posts in this thread regarding MIA. A lot of the negative views relate to over-production, including the orchestration and vocal layering, among other things.

Sad as it is, I was pondering whether maybe - in the intimacy of the studio - Richard, listening to Karen lay down vocals, felt as you suggest - that Karen's voice was no longer what it was (given her state of health) and he decided to "compensate", ending up with the over-production and such.

Pure speculation of course, but it would explain some of the decision-making. Richard was never shy about over-orchestrating at times (my opinion), but it does seem really thick on MIA, to the point that - as many have said here - much of the music seems almost like a lot of pop music is today, actually - "manufactured" to the point of sterility.
 
Your comments here touch on something I've been thinking while reading the various posts in this thread regarding MIA. A lot of the negative views relate to over-production, including the orchestration and vocal layering, among other things.

Sad as it is, I was pondering whether maybe - in the intimacy of the studio - Richard, listening to Karen lay down vocals, felt as you suggest - that Karen's voice was no longer what it was (given her state of health) and he decided to "compensate", ending up with the over-production and such.

Pure speculation of course, but it would explain some of the decision-making. Richard was never shy about over-orchestrating at times (my opinion), but it does seem really thick on MIA, to the point that - as many have said here - much of the music seems almost like a lot of pop music is today, actually - "manufactured" to the point of sterility.

I thought about that for a while, but if you listen closely you'll notice that her voice sounds stronger and richer in some songs that he didn't use like Two Lives, Uninvited Guest, At The End of The Song. So it really confuses me.

Not at the same level, but the same happened on the Christmas Portrait album, the songs where you can hear her one of a kind alto were cut-off e.g. : Do You Hear What I Hear?, He Came Here For Me and I Heard The Bells and Little Altar Boy.
 

goodjeans

Well-Known Member
Your comments here touch on something I've been thinking while reading the various posts in this thread regarding MIA. A lot of the negative views relate to over-production, including the orchestration and vocal layering, among other things.

Sad as it is, I was pondering whether maybe - in the intimacy of the studio - Richard, listening to Karen lay down vocals, felt as you suggest - that Karen's voice was no longer what it was (given her state of health) and he decided to "compensate", ending up with the over-production and such.

Pure speculation of course, but it would explain some of the decision-making. Richard was never shy about over-orchestrating at times (my opinion), but it does seem really thick on MIA, to the point that - as many have said here - much of the music seems almost like a lot of pop music is today, actually - "manufactured" to the point of sterility.
Your "pure speculation" is quite interesting and something that never crossed my mind in all of these years.
Thank you.
 

motownboy

Well-Known Member
"Made In America", I thought was a pretty good album overall. I still get goosebumps from "When It's Gone." "Touch Me When We're Dancing" is a classic. "Those Good Old Dreams" is cute. The worst track for me is "Strength Of A Woman." I can't believe that Karen would sing lyrics about a woman allowing her man to cheat on her occasionally. "Sometimes it takes the strength of a woman to understand the weakness of her man." HORRIBLE! I wouldn't have used it posthumously either! Also, I wish that "Because We Are In Love" wasn't associated with her wedding to u-know-who.

I would replace "Strength", "Beachwood 4-5789", and "When You've Got What It Takes" with "Kiss Me The Way You Did Last Night", "The Uninvited Guest" (though I don't think Richard had the final arrangement he used until 1989), and "You're Baby Doesn't Love You Anymore." How nice it would have been if Karen and Richard had done their trademark stacked backing vocals on "Your Baby..."
 
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JohnFB

Active Member
I always thought this song would have fit on Karen’s solo album. Reminds me of the pop feel of If We Try and If I Had You.
Agreed - those two were the best tracks off the Solo Album - but they didn't give me a "pop" feel - I got some serious Smooth Jazz vibes from them both - "Kiss Me..." could've replaced any other song on that (except maybe "Make Believe...").
 

JohnFB

Active Member
... She's doubled to the point of robotics ...Her voice was the greatest asset by a nautical mile and it was just part of the machine... Her voice should always have been the focus but Richard lost the plot totally. He put the focus squarely on the production and anything that wasn't Karen.
...

Ed
True here, and very unfortunately far too true on far too many of their recordings - her natural voice was almost everything and should never have been doubled - duets were ok, but never with herself - as glorious as her solo voice was, it was not her anymore once she overdubbed her own lead vocals - it was a distortion of the real, natural, beautiful sound of her voice - in the real world obviously nobody sings along with themselves - the worst thing that ever happened to Richard was hearing the Les Paul/Mary Ford recordings in his youth and concluding that that recording technique was really cool and one to emulate...
 

ThaFunkyFakeTation

Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
True here, and very unfortunately far too true on far too many of their recordings - her natural voice was almost everything and should never have been doubled - duets were ok, but never with herself - as glorious as her solo voice was, it was not her anymore once she overdubbed her own lead vocals - it was a distortion of the real, natural, beautiful sound of her voice - in the real world obviously nobody sings along with themselves - the worst thing that ever happened to Richard was hearing the Les Paul/Mary Ford recordings in his youth and concluding that that recording technique was really cool and one to emulate...

Were it not for those Les Paul/Mary Ford recordings, we wouldn't have gotten the harmonies at all. Yeah, he was doing them in Spectrum but they really caught fire when it was just the two of them. Vocal arranging is Richard's true gift. His arrangements adorned her voice extremely well. Never understood why he didn't do them for others that often.

For me, it's really only the doubling on those on "Made in America" that take things too far. She's doubled on a lot of that record and because of that, she doesn't sound the least bit expressive on either tune. She just sounds like an android.

Ed
 

JohnFB

Active Member
Fixed that for you. :wink:

I, for one, love the overdubbing and Richard's production. Hearing double-Karen is a bonus, in my book.
🙂 Nice try, but no cigar...your fix needs fixed...less is more, and the only way we can hear more Karen - the real Karen - is to eliminate the double-tracking of her lead vocals. Why this is desirable can be illustrated, for example, by the difference between how she sounds singing "Superstar" on the 1971 BBC Special live and how she sounds on the official recording on the album where she double-tracks herself on the chorus. This same difference is readily apparent on her live vs. album performances of "I Need To Be In Love". She sounds so much better on the live (non-overdubbed) versions. There are a number of other examples that could easily be cited.

I was thinking of petitioning Richard and A&M to put out a new double or triple album remixed so that all of Karen's double-tracking of her own lead vocal would be eliminated - no other changes would be necessary. You might want to call it "Pure Karen" or some such...I would guess I probably couldn't count on your support for this project...
 

Harry

Charter A&M Corner Member
Staff member
Moderator
Not going to happen. Richard is pretty much proud of everything the way it was.

No, I will not throw my support to such a project. There are already enough attempts by members and fans to totally eliminate all backing instruments and just hear Karen singing a capella. They're all over YouTube and often linked here. There must be a fanbase for that kind of thing as it seems to go on endlessly. I myself have even been challenged to aid in the cause with my limited abilities to boost a vocal here and there.

But as for the doubling, I'm afraid you and I will be agreeing to disagree. I love that sound and wouldn't want it diminished in any way.
 

Carpe diem

Well-Known Member
Once again, I am learning to love another song that I initially "Poo-Pooed". Falling in love with those opening lyrics and the way Karen coos them;

Serenade me by the light of the moon
Let's sing and dance as lovers do...

And the rest of the song just flows from there.

Nice thread topic Mark!
 

ThaFunkyFakeTation

Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
Once again, I am learning to love another song that I initially "Poo-Pooed". Falling in love with those opening lyrics and the way Karen coos them;

Serenade me by the light of the moon
Let's sing and dance as lovers do...

And the rest of the song just flows from there.

Nice thread topic Mark!

I likely said this about other tunes but "Kiss Me..." is another one that could have used less production. There's never a dull moment on it. I think it's the orchestration (the oboe...UGH!) that bothers me. It's just not needed. Karen's vocal is incredible and I dearly love Richard's vocal arrangement. So much ear candy in it. Siedah was such a good idea as an additional female background voice. I said it earlier here but I'd love to have heard Richard employ other female backing singers more often.

Ed
 

ChrisCarpenterCollecter

Tomorrow Maybe Even Brighter Than Today
Not going to happen. Richard is pretty much proud of everything the way it was.

No, I will not throw my support to such a project. There are already enough attempts by members and fans to totally eliminate all backing instruments and just hear Karen singing a capella. They're all over YouTube and often linked here. There must be a fanbase for that kind of thing as it seems to go on endlessly. I myself have even been challenged to aid in the cause with my limited abilities to boost a vocal here and there.

But as for the doubling, I'm afraid you and I will be agreeing to disagree. I love that sound and wouldn't want it diminished in any way.
As for the a capella, it’s just for fun and it shows how empty a song is without Richard’s great piano and orchestrated tingles and tambourines and flutes etc etc.
I actually love the doubled vocals on all of their songs, it makes a song.... a carpenters song.
Just their recognizable sound!
 

Rumbahbah

Well-Known Member
🙂 Nice try, but no cigar...your fix needs fixed...less is more, and the only way we can hear more Karen - the real Karen - is to eliminate the double-tracking of her lead vocals. Why this is desirable can be illustrated, for example, by the difference between how she sounds singing "Superstar" on the 1971 BBC Special live and how she sounds on the official recording on the album where she double-tracks herself on the chorus. This same difference is readily apparent on her live vs. album performances of "I Need To Be In Love". She sounds so much better on the live (non-overdubbed) versions. There are a number of other examples that could easily be cited.

I was thinking of petitioning Richard and A&M to put out a new double or triple album remixed so that all of Karen's double-tracking of her own lead vocal would be eliminated - no other changes would be necessary. You might want to call it "Pure Karen" or some such...I would guess I probably couldn't count on your support for this project...

This isn't something I've seen many fans take issue with, but the double-tracking is something that has bothered me on certain songs as its effect is often to dilute Karen's vocal and make it less direct and impactful.

I don't mind the doubling on 'Superstar' as it provides a change of pace from the verses, but I've never liked it on the chorus of 'I Won't Last a Day Without You' (hearing Karen sing the chorus as part of the 1976 medley highlights how much more effective a single vocal would have been on this song) and, as you say, the live versions of both 'A Kind of Hush' and 'I Need to Be in Love' are much improved shorn of the doubled vocals of the studio versions.

In a way, the doubling of vocals was a bit like the use of the oboe on their tracks - it had its place, but it tended to become over-used as a bit of a lazy 'Carpenters' sound trademark, even when its use didn't gel well with the song in question.

The one track that I have seen fans complain about the doubling on the chorus is 'Love Me For What I Am' and ironically I don't mind it so much on there - again, like on 'Superstar', it provides an acceptable change of pace compared to the starkness and directness of the vocal in the verses.
 

newvillefan

I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Siedah was such a good idea as an additional female background voice. I said it earlier here but I'd love to have heard Richard employ other female backing singers more often.

I’m a big fan of Siedah Garrett both as a singer and songwriter and I agree, she was perfect for their sound.

The one track that I have seen fans complain about the doubling on the chorus is 'Love Me For What I Am

This is the one I was referring to earlier in the thread when I mentioned that the doubling led to a phasing sound on her vocals. It wasn’t needed, is really distracting and spoils the song.
 
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