Lovelines
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Murray
Well-Known Member
Harry said:
You're right Harry, Veronique Beliveau is French-Canadian. She started as a fashion model, and later branched out into music. She had three albums on A&M before the one with Richard. The first two were in French, and the third, "Borderline" was her English debut. It featured the single "Make A Move On Me", a minor hit in Canada.
Her fourth album (titled "Veronique") was released on A&M in 1989 (CD 9154). It was produced by Richard, and recorded at the A&M studios in Hollywood. Richard sings backing vocals on all the tracks. With the exception of "All Those Years Ago", a song written by Richard, and some of the harmonies, this album doesn't sound like a Carpenters album. It is very "eighties" sounding - uptempo, electronic percussion etc.
Two singles were released, "House Of Love" (had a promo video), and "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" (no video). The best songs IMHO are "House Of Love", "A Touch Of Paradise", and the beautiful "All Those Years Ago". Richard and Veronique performed it live only once, on a Veronique TV special taped in Toronto in the summer of '89.
This album is very hard to find, as only 10,000 copies were produced (total of all three formats). It's one of my favourites, and I listen to it quite often.
Murray
I think I still have the Scott Grimes album around somewhere. The single off it was excellent, but the rest was ehhhh, not so hot, as I remember.
There's been alot of discussion here about the merits of VOICE OF THE HEART,in contrast to MADE IN AMERICA and LOVELINES.To set the record straight,VOICE OF THE HEART hit #46 on billboard in November 1983-making it "almost" a top 40 album,and has sold approximately 900,000 copies.(it was certified GOLD in 1998).MADE AMERICA sold approximately 475,000 copies,and LOVELINES sold approximately 300,000.From a commercial standpoint, VOICE OF THE HEART was a successful album-outselling MADE IN AMERICA,LOVELINES and even PASSAGE.The fact that VOICE OF THE HEART had no top 40 singles is not an issue,because there is no contemporary "top 40" material on the album.From an artistic standpoint,VOICE OF THE HEART is a focused,cohesive album-one that highlights karen as a great VOCALIST and album artist.
Personally, I like VOICE OF THE HEART. I like all Carpenters albums. I'm the one who's always said that Karen could sing anything and make it sound good, even the phone book (darn near did too -- see BEechwood 4-5789!). My point about the album being a disappointment commercially was, that here you have a pop star suddenly dying of a previously little-heard-of condition. A posthumous album is released, and you'd think that the ever-curious pop-culture public would go hog-wild over it. (See Selena, Jim Croce, etc.) But it never made it into the top 40, let alone the top ten. By 1983, Carpenters had a serious image problem. Pop radio wouldn't touch them. They weren't 'hip.' They had 'high negatives' in research testing. I find that sad, and am almost embarassed for my countrymen who'd dismiss an album because of some ridiculous image problem.
Richard had to be scratching his head too. Big successes overseas, but fair-to-middling minor chart action here at home. THAT's the disappointment factor.
Harry
...clarifying, online...
Richard had to be scratching his head too. Big successes overseas, but fair-to-middling minor chart action here at home. THAT's the disappointment factor.
Harry
...clarifying, online...
The U.S. is too hung up on image. Back in the original days of Carpenters, it wasn't hip to be listening to music your old man dug. It's what listeners thought other listeners and friends would think of them if they were caught owning or listening to a Carpenters album.
Elsewhere in the world, they're more tuned into the music. Carpenters....hmmm...catchy arrangements, great singer, piano player's happ'nin'...OK, where do we buy it?
-= N =-
...music buyer...
Elsewhere in the world, they're more tuned into the music. Carpenters....hmmm...catchy arrangements, great singer, piano player's happ'nin'...OK, where do we buy it?
-= N =-
...music buyer...
Bruno
Member
I've found a great Carpenters website, which shows all albums connected with Richard and Karen. You will find the Scott Grimes album there, too. 
http://www.grantguerrero.com/carpenters
for example, the Scott Grimes site is:
http://www.grantguerrero.com/carpenters/scottgrimes.html
http://www.grantguerrero.com/carpenters
for example, the Scott Grimes site is:
http://www.grantguerrero.com/carpenters/scottgrimes.html
Murray
Well-Known Member
Rudy said:
The following is a quote from the final Carpenters fan club newsletter (#90 - August 1989):
"The album 'Veronique' will be released in late September in Canada and in January in the U.S."
The US release never happened, cancelled due to the very disappointing Canadian sales.
It's important to note that Celine Dion's first English album, "Unison", was released in Canada first and sold a huge number of copies, prompting Sony to release it in the US. Surprisingly, Americans liked what they heard, the album sold well, and the rest is history. A&M, seeing what happened with Celine, figured that they could repeat this success with their own French-Canadian singer, so they sent her to Hollywood to work with Richard. The problem was, Richard's sound wasn't what the American (or Canadian) public wanted to hear in the late eighties (Time, Akiko, and Scott Grimes also sold very poorly). I feel sorry for Veronique. If A&M had chosen a younger, "hipper" producer for her, she might have had a better chance at success. As a result of the commercial failure of this project, A&M dropped her from the label. She was never heard from again outside of Quebec, where she continued to record in French for an independent label.
Murray
I agree with Harry. Thing is, when VOTH was originally released, Richard didn't like the slick feel of the songs. He felt as if Ramone had ripped off the Carpenters sound--harmonies, arrangements, etc. In retrospect, after Karen had passed away, he realized the value of what she had done with VOTH. As a result, he made the decision to release the album in its entirety--a brave decision, seeing as he was still reeling from the loss of Karen.
But, as Harry said, you have to consider the times and, as I mentioned above, what Richard was going through--a very difficult, life-changing, life-adjusting, career-changing time--three big blows.
I like the later material in many ways. No, it's not the simple (yet plush) Carpenters sound for which we're accustomed. I, for one, was entranced by Those Good Old Dreams from the first spin. What a fresh, new, yet familiar sound. "This is the Carpenters!" I remember thinking at the time.
As of late, Lovelines has received considerable play in the Skinner household. We love the straight-forward approach of Ramone's arrangements. And, considering Karen's health at the time, she sounds sensational--her instrument strong, clear, right on. Retrospect is a funny thing--sometimes it comes back to hit you in the gut. If we (as Carpenters fans) should feel this way, I can only imagine what it must have been like for Richard and the Carpenter family. Hats off to all of Richard's efforts.
Brasil Nut
NP: Carpenters - Ticket To Ride
But, as Harry said, you have to consider the times and, as I mentioned above, what Richard was going through--a very difficult, life-changing, life-adjusting, career-changing time--three big blows.
I like the later material in many ways. No, it's not the simple (yet plush) Carpenters sound for which we're accustomed. I, for one, was entranced by Those Good Old Dreams from the first spin. What a fresh, new, yet familiar sound. "This is the Carpenters!" I remember thinking at the time.
As of late, Lovelines has received considerable play in the Skinner household. We love the straight-forward approach of Ramone's arrangements. And, considering Karen's health at the time, she sounds sensational--her instrument strong, clear, right on. Retrospect is a funny thing--sometimes it comes back to hit you in the gut. If we (as Carpenters fans) should feel this way, I can only imagine what it must have been like for Richard and the Carpenter family. Hats off to all of Richard's efforts.
Brasil Nut
NP: Carpenters - Ticket To Ride
Gee, looks like I made an mistake. Meant to say Lovelines, not VOTH--you're right. That's what I get for typing a message with my morning cup of coffee. Sorry for the error.
Brasil Nut
Brasil Nut
Geographer
Well-Known Member
I have heard clips of both Veronique and Akiko's material produced by Richard. Far and away, "All Those Years Ago" is a fantastic song. I do own a copy of a copy of a video of Akiko singing "Close to You" with Richard while he was in Japan promoting VOTH. It is "chilling." Other than the accent, she sounds quite a bit like Karen. And, as you all are aware, there are no Karen Carpenter impersonators out there a-la Elvis, which to me is a mark of greatness. After all, why is someone such a great singer if everyone and their brother can do a near perfect impression. That's just my opinion. But yes, Akiko does sound like Karen.
I did hear a rumor that Richard is producing Laura Brannigan. Did anyone else hear this? Confirm or deny?
Great forum here. Love it.
Geographer
I did hear a rumor that Richard is producing Laura Brannigan. Did anyone else hear this? Confirm or deny?
Great forum here. Love it.
Geographer
I like that solo album! (In its originally mixed version.) There are still remnants of the Carpenters sound (check out some of those vocal harmonies), but the "sound" of this album would have fit right in with its contemporaries had it been released. I remember Richard complaining (in the Ray Coleman biography) about a few things with this album:
1. They'd "stolen" the Carpenters sound making this album. Yes, I can see that to a point, since there are a lot of vocal overdubs with close harmonies that sound similar to some Carpenters songs. However, is there any other way to overdub Karen that she wouldn't sound like Carpenters?
2. They'd "gone disco." A few of the songs had a dance beat to it, but I wouldn't call this a "disco" album. Disco's popularity was beginning to wane, and had this been a true disco album, there would have been fewer, but lengthier, tracks on it...and there would have been a 12" remix (Tom Moulton or Bob Clearmountain, anyone?) of a couple of the dance tracks. I think "Lovelines", with a proper remix, would have been a killer on the dance floor.
3. They'd done "suggestive" lyrics. Don't recall if he had a problem with the lyrics verbatim, but more for their attempt to pointlessly make her more "adult." These lyrics are tame in comparison to what has followed in the couple of decades since!!
4. They had her singing beyond her range. That one doesn't fly with me--it's outside her usual range ("the money's in the basement"), but the fact that she sang in a higher register, in tune, and did a damn good job of it, just shows how versatile her vocals could be.
I don't think this would have been the big commercial failure everyone thought it would have been, either. There was similar, but inferior, music coming out of L.A. and New York during this era...it certainly could have held its own with proper promotion and, just maybe, a remixed/extended 12" single or two. (If Ethel Merman could do it, anyone could!)
-= N =-
1. They'd "stolen" the Carpenters sound making this album. Yes, I can see that to a point, since there are a lot of vocal overdubs with close harmonies that sound similar to some Carpenters songs. However, is there any other way to overdub Karen that she wouldn't sound like Carpenters?
2. They'd "gone disco." A few of the songs had a dance beat to it, but I wouldn't call this a "disco" album. Disco's popularity was beginning to wane, and had this been a true disco album, there would have been fewer, but lengthier, tracks on it...and there would have been a 12" remix (Tom Moulton or Bob Clearmountain, anyone?) of a couple of the dance tracks. I think "Lovelines", with a proper remix, would have been a killer on the dance floor.
3. They'd done "suggestive" lyrics. Don't recall if he had a problem with the lyrics verbatim, but more for their attempt to pointlessly make her more "adult." These lyrics are tame in comparison to what has followed in the couple of decades since!!
4. They had her singing beyond her range. That one doesn't fly with me--it's outside her usual range ("the money's in the basement"), but the fact that she sang in a higher register, in tune, and did a damn good job of it, just shows how versatile her vocals could be.
I don't think this would have been the big commercial failure everyone thought it would have been, either. There was similar, but inferior, music coming out of L.A. and New York during this era...it certainly could have held its own with proper promotion and, just maybe, a remixed/extended 12" single or two. (If Ethel Merman could do it, anyone could!)
-= N =-
Chris
Well-Known Member
Well said!!
All that coupled with those great glamour photos would have given Karen major attention in a new way. That album cover photo of her is gorgeous ( In it's orginal intended condition. What was done to that picture on the 1996 release cover is criminal! ).
Maybe one day we WILL hear a dynamite dance remix of the song Lovelines! I realize it's a long shot, but not impossible.
All that coupled with those great glamour photos would have given Karen major attention in a new way. That album cover photo of her is gorgeous ( In it's orginal intended condition. What was done to that picture on the 1996 release cover is criminal! ).
Maybe one day we WILL hear a dynamite dance remix of the song Lovelines! I realize it's a long shot, but not impossible.
Interesting debate ...for those that have not seen the newest Carpenters Documentary , UK CLOSE TO YOU , STORY OF THE CARPENTERS, Richard assets very strongly that had Karen wanted the Solo Album released , She could have put her foot down with A&M , sensing Karen's mixed feelings Herb , Jerry and other A&M Execs persuaded Karen to withdraw this Album in favour of Future Carpenters projects.
Richard is right in that if an individual wants something enough , you have to battle all opposition.However I feel that with long term backers Herb & Jerry's doubts , other A&M Execs opposition and Richard's desire to record with Karen again as soon as possible, release was never realistic.
Agree with Neil , this set could have sold reasonably well , probably better in chart / sales terms than either Passage or Christmas Portrait and a release would have improved Karen's self -confidence totally.
Shame that Karen Carpenter was not released Spring / Summer 1980 and certainly needed release in 1983 /1984 when some attention / success would have resulted
Peter
Richard is right in that if an individual wants something enough , you have to battle all opposition.However I feel that with long term backers Herb & Jerry's doubts , other A&M Execs opposition and Richard's desire to record with Karen again as soon as possible, release was never realistic.
Agree with Neil , this set could have sold reasonably well , probably better in chart / sales terms than either Passage or Christmas Portrait and a release would have improved Karen's self -confidence totally.
Shame that Karen Carpenter was not released Spring / Summer 1980 and certainly needed release in 1983 /1984 when some attention / success would have resulted
Peter
Geographer
Well-Known Member
As is often the case, I have to actually go against the Karen Solo tide here. Although I do occasionally enjoy Karen's solo work (both released and unreleased) I have to side with Richard on this one. Thinking about my age and state of mind back in 1980, my thought is that releasing her solo album would have done damage to my respect for them which may or may not have resulted in less enthusiasm on my part to purchase future Carpenter releases.
One thing I find refreshing, unique (especially by today's standards), and a mark of TRUE talent, is that the Carpenters did not have to resort to shocking thier audience into buying albums by degrading themselves to a level where they had to record sexually explicit material. And, for the time, Karen's solo material was pretty explicit....especially for her. The Carpenters can still sing about sex without painting us graphic pictures. We are smart enough to get the message in the song. There is a big difference between the material Karen was recording with Ramone and what Richard recorded with her. Richard's selection of material, especially in the later years (Made in America, VOTH, Lovelines), was "mature" while Karen's solo material was "explicit."
For example, Olivia Newton John's "Get Physical" and "Soul Kiss," although probably commercially successful (I am not much of a ONJ fan) are not considered her most memorable work, at least not to me. I am never impressed by an artist that thinks they have to resort to these tactics to boost their career. It rarely works and tends to alienate the true, loyal, fans.
I enjoy Karen's quality of naivety (did I spell that right?) and innocence in expressing her sexuality. I don't need the details.
Now, having said that, there are some great songs in Karen's solo effort. I really enjoy songs like "Midnight," "Love Making Love to You" (probably considerd an "explicit" song), "Last One Singing the Blues, "If I Had You," and "If We Try." But in retrospect, considering overall production value, I think Richard's solo work is superior to Karen's. The magic, however, is when Richard and Karen work together. And I think that is even more clear when listening to Karen and Richard's solo work and then comparing it to the later Carpenters work.
One thing I find refreshing, unique (especially by today's standards), and a mark of TRUE talent, is that the Carpenters did not have to resort to shocking thier audience into buying albums by degrading themselves to a level where they had to record sexually explicit material. And, for the time, Karen's solo material was pretty explicit....especially for her. The Carpenters can still sing about sex without painting us graphic pictures. We are smart enough to get the message in the song. There is a big difference between the material Karen was recording with Ramone and what Richard recorded with her. Richard's selection of material, especially in the later years (Made in America, VOTH, Lovelines), was "mature" while Karen's solo material was "explicit."
For example, Olivia Newton John's "Get Physical" and "Soul Kiss," although probably commercially successful (I am not much of a ONJ fan) are not considered her most memorable work, at least not to me. I am never impressed by an artist that thinks they have to resort to these tactics to boost their career. It rarely works and tends to alienate the true, loyal, fans.
I enjoy Karen's quality of naivety (did I spell that right?) and innocence in expressing her sexuality. I don't need the details.
Now, having said that, there are some great songs in Karen's solo effort. I really enjoy songs like "Midnight," "Love Making Love to You" (probably considerd an "explicit" song), "Last One Singing the Blues, "If I Had You," and "If We Try." But in retrospect, considering overall production value, I think Richard's solo work is superior to Karen's. The magic, however, is when Richard and Karen work together. And I think that is even more clear when listening to Karen and Richard's solo work and then comparing it to the later Carpenters work.
Bruno
Member
Well, you can't call the lyrics on the solo album sexually explicit. They are very, very harmless compared to other songs that were around at that time, not to speak of nowadays. This just shows once again, how prudish Richard seems to be.
On the other hand, I do agree that those lyrics don't seem to be in Karen's style, because anorectics have a disturbed attitude towards sexuality. They don't love their body, they hate it and want to destroy it by hungering( mostly unconscious, ofcourse).
Even though I love Karen's vocals and I like the songs, I wouldn't have released the solo album in 1980, because the sound quality of the recordings is very bad. But with the right remix, I think it could have been a success on the charts.
On the other hand, I do agree that those lyrics don't seem to be in Karen's style, because anorectics have a disturbed attitude towards sexuality. They don't love their body, they hate it and want to destroy it by hungering( mostly unconscious, ofcourse).
Even though I love Karen's vocals and I like the songs, I wouldn't have released the solo album in 1980, because the sound quality of the recordings is very bad. But with the right remix, I think it could have been a success on the charts.
I understand Richard had two main issues with the Solo Sessions :
1. The songs that reflected very unsubtle lyrics / messages compared to Carpenters understated songs.
2. That considering Ramone was to produce a very non-Carpenters type Album , the tracks frequently had Carpenter type flourishes / harmonies and sounds - no doubt a compliment to Richard's Arranging / Production skills -but still irratating to Richard.
Richard was not prudish , he has always loved understatement , subtlety and word skill.Remember that Karen was unhappy at the original line in Paul Simon's " Still Crazy After" and had this altered
Having heard a few of the Solo outtakes there would have been a better releasable Album as Coleman states given Ramone's career with Simon , Dylan , Joel and Bacharach , it is surprising that no new songs by these Singer/Songwriters were requested / completed
Playing this Album over the weekend, I felt Karen's vocals were great , certainly pushing herself into different areas and with a few changes of tracks , delete My Body , Remember When etc and replace with two / three outtakes and certainly this set would have enjoyed success and in no way undermined Carpenters future Albums.......
Peter...Make Believe ....and it may come true.......
1. The songs that reflected very unsubtle lyrics / messages compared to Carpenters understated songs.
2. That considering Ramone was to produce a very non-Carpenters type Album , the tracks frequently had Carpenter type flourishes / harmonies and sounds - no doubt a compliment to Richard's Arranging / Production skills -but still irratating to Richard.
Richard was not prudish , he has always loved understatement , subtlety and word skill.Remember that Karen was unhappy at the original line in Paul Simon's " Still Crazy After" and had this altered
Having heard a few of the Solo outtakes there would have been a better releasable Album as Coleman states given Ramone's career with Simon , Dylan , Joel and Bacharach , it is surprising that no new songs by these Singer/Songwriters were requested / completed
Playing this Album over the weekend, I felt Karen's vocals were great , certainly pushing herself into different areas and with a few changes of tracks , delete My Body , Remember When etc and replace with two / three outtakes and certainly this set would have enjoyed success and in no way undermined Carpenters future Albums.......
Peter...Make Believe ....and it may come true.......
Geographer
Well-Known Member
I could not agree more!
Bruno
Member
Well, let's face it, folks:
Richard was against the solo album, because he just was afraid, that Karen might start a career on her own. Because he knew, that she was the star of the duo. Richard is a great pianist, composer and arranger, but without Karen he never would have had the big success that Carpenters had.
Richard was against the solo album, because he just was afraid, that Karen might start a career on her own. Because he knew, that she was the star of the duo. Richard is a great pianist, composer and arranger, but without Karen he never would have had the big success that Carpenters had.
Geographer
Well-Known Member
I have to disagree. I don't think Richard was "against the solo album, because he just was afraid, that Karen might start a career on her own." That is always a populist position I see, hear, and read in many places. I held my judgment on this issue until I actually heard the solo album and found that I had to agree with Richard. It is a GOOD album but not nearly as great as it could have been....and quite inferior to many Carpenter releases. I don't think Phil Ramone did not quite know what to do with the voice he was given to work with and opted to try and make a "trendy" album rather than a "classic." Again, this only an opinion.
I think Richard was not keen on the project for exactly the reasons he states and not because of some conspiracy, hidden agenda, or insecurities. I know, Bruno, that this is not what you were saying (please don't take it wrong) But It is easy in this post-Carpenter-apocolytic time to make Richard the scapegoat of everything from a bad remix to Karen's death. We forget that if it were not for Richard's talent, foresight, and lack of personal ego to share the spotlight with Karen (and actually let her have it), we would not all be here having these discussions. After all, Karen would have been nothing without Richard, too.
If Karen's album was a big success, and she opted to go "solo" permenently (which I sincerely doubt she would have), we would all be bemoaning that we miss Richard's treatment of Karen's voice and wish they would get back together. Of this, I have no doubt.
As for Richard not being anything without Karen, well, possibly. But then again, maybe not. Richard, too, was offered many "solo" projects even when Karen was living. I know he was offered at least on film score to do and turned it down (Disney's Rescuers). I for one do not feel sorry for Richard and his lack of finding work sans Karen.
As Richard once said on "Behind the Music" that has since been "bleeped," "Sh** happens!" And things are what they are....without conspiracies, hidden agendas, or insecurities.
I, for one (and maybe the only one), am thankful for Richard's protective stance in regard to Carpenter material. I am glad he is in control of the music as much as he is. I think he has done a hell of a job protecting the integrity of the work.
Always defending Richard,
I think Richard was not keen on the project for exactly the reasons he states and not because of some conspiracy, hidden agenda, or insecurities. I know, Bruno, that this is not what you were saying (please don't take it wrong) But It is easy in this post-Carpenter-apocolytic time to make Richard the scapegoat of everything from a bad remix to Karen's death. We forget that if it were not for Richard's talent, foresight, and lack of personal ego to share the spotlight with Karen (and actually let her have it), we would not all be here having these discussions. After all, Karen would have been nothing without Richard, too.
If Karen's album was a big success, and she opted to go "solo" permenently (which I sincerely doubt she would have), we would all be bemoaning that we miss Richard's treatment of Karen's voice and wish they would get back together. Of this, I have no doubt.
As for Richard not being anything without Karen, well, possibly. But then again, maybe not. Richard, too, was offered many "solo" projects even when Karen was living. I know he was offered at least on film score to do and turned it down (Disney's Rescuers). I for one do not feel sorry for Richard and his lack of finding work sans Karen.
As Richard once said on "Behind the Music" that has since been "bleeped," "Sh** happens!" And things are what they are....without conspiracies, hidden agendas, or insecurities.
I, for one (and maybe the only one), am thankful for Richard's protective stance in regard to Carpenter material. I am glad he is in control of the music as much as he is. I think he has done a hell of a job protecting the integrity of the work.
Always defending Richard,
- Status
