Mr. Guder and Maybe It's You Lyrics Questions and Answers

Thanks, Chris! I knew we could count on you to clear the confusion.

But, I never even considered it could have been written as "queen." So now the rhyme with "velveteen" makes perfect sense. In fact in my "evidence" post above, I had written "3. "'Ocean king' sort-of rhymes with 'velveteen'....at least better than 'ocean came' does." But then deleted it as a weak argument. I wish now I'd left it in!
 
Can we throw California Dreamin' in this mix? Was it intentional for the duo to record "stopped into a church I passed along the way, well I got down on my knees and I began to pray"? When the lyrics are actually "I pretend to pray". It always sounded to me like "I began to pray" when the Mamas & Papas did it.






But, then again, when you listen closely to the M&P version it is clearly "pretend".
 
Can we throw California Dreamin' in this mix? Was it intentional for the duo to record "stopped into a church I passed along the way, well I got down on my knees and I began to pray"? When the lyrics are actually "I pretend to pray". It always sounded to me like "I began to pray" when the Mamas & Papas did it.






But, then again, when you listen closely to the M&P version it is clearly "pretend".


“Pretend” makes the lyric more layered too.
 
The word "pretend" connotes a bit of cynicism toward religion, whereas "began" has the protagonist participating in that religious act. It may be that in those early days, Karen and Richard were uncomfortable being cynical about religion.

Now, a reminder. There will be no discussion of religion here, so keep your comments away from that. It's tough, but I think it can be handled. If things go off the rails, we'll close the thread.
 
The word "pretend" connotes a bit of cynicism toward religion, whereas "began" has the protagonist participating in that religious act. It may be that in those early days, Karen and Richard were uncomfortable being cynical about religion.

Now, a reminder. There will be no discussion of religion here, so keep your comments away from that. It's tough, but I think it can be handled. If things go off the rails, we'll close the thread.

Another thought I had is that they too may have misheard the lyric and recorded it the way they heard it. I don’t own the original Mamas and Papas LP, so this would all be assuming that Karen and Richard owned the LP AND there was not a lyric sheet included.
 
Now, a reminder. There will be no discussion of religion here, so keep your comments away from that. It's tough, but I think it can be handled. If things go off the rails, we'll close the thread.

We were talking about lyrical content and misheard lyrics, nobody’s even mentioned religion. I’m pretty sure everyone is well aware of the rules around here.
 
I didn't accuse anyone of anything. If anyone brought up religion, it was me, as the lyrics are about a church and praying.. I'm merely trying to head off any possible problems. We're mostly all adults here and are capable of keeping the discussions where they should be. I'm hoping that will be the case.
 
Another thought I had is that they too may have misheard the lyric and recorded it the way they heard it. I don’t own the original Mamas and Papas LP, so this would all be assuming that Karen and Richard owned the LP AND there was not a lyric sheet included.


You’re correct, Chris. No lyric sheet on the original album, which I’ve owned since age 5.

😊😊
 
I would have thought that the Carpenters would have worked from a piece of sheet music, wouldn't they? I know that sheet music isn't always correct with the lyrics, but it's not always wrong either.

How does that work, anyway? If Richard wanted to so a song that he was familiar with, would he just play it by ear and have his copyist jot it down? Or would they go through the motion of finding a lead sheet or actual sheet music? Something I never thought about. Chris?
 
I think it’s appropriate on the forum to discuss the Carpenters’ intent on how the lyric was used at that time, and I agree with Harry that “pretend” is John Philips’ dig at religion during a time when America was changing drastically, and the C’s replacement of the word is an interesting reversed revisionist (is that a thing?) take in terms of how their image wasn’t just an “image”, but that their ethos was shaped in a wholly different way than the counterculture’s. It quietly signals how, on the surface, they were going to be a purified throwback to a time when old values were seemingly reinstated going into the early 70s.
 
I thought it was "Ocean Keen." It rhymes with "velveteen" and is another way to say a keen ocean! (or being keen on the ocean)
 
I would have thought that the Carpenters would have worked from a piece of sheet music, wouldn't they? I know that sheet music isn't always correct with the lyrics, but it's not always wrong either.

How does that work, anyway? If Richard wanted to so a song that he was familiar with, would he just play it by ear and have his copyist jot it down? Or would they go through the motion of finding a lead sheet or actual sheet music? Something I never thought about. Chris?

Oh sure! Usually the lyrics would be taken from the publisher, any changes or rewrites accounted for and written out alone or on a lead sheet with melody, which a copyist - in their case, Ron Gorow typically would put together prior to the session.

But remember, California Dreamin' was cut when they were still tracking stuff at Joe Osborn's studio pre-"Carpenters", so they didn't have access to publishing to the same degree and most likely did everything by rote. :)
 
I would have thought that the Carpenters would have worked from a piece of sheet music, wouldn't they? I know that sheet music isn't always correct with the lyrics, but it's not always wrong either.

How does that work, anyway? If Richard wanted to so a song that he was familiar with, would he just play it by ear and have his copyist jot it down? Or would they go through the motion of finding a lead sheet or actual sheet music? Something I never thought about. Chris?
Could it be that Karen looked away from the lyric sheet for a second, and just sang it that way? Since wouldn’t Karen have been playing drums at Magic Lamp as well, at the same time as she was recording her vocal?

Also, I find when I just say the words “I began to pray” vs “I pretend to pray”, the began rolls off better, since the pretend you tend to have the two ‘p’ words close together.
 
I think it’s appropriate on the forum to discuss the Carpenters’ intent on how the lyric was used at that time, and I agree with Harry that “pretend” is John Philips’ dig at religion during a time when America was changing drastically, and the C’s replacement of the word is an interesting reversed revisionist (is that a thing?) take in terms of how their image wasn’t just an “image”, but that their ethos was shaped in a wholly different way than the counterculture’s. It quietly signals how, on the surface, they were going to be a purified throwback to a time when old values were seemingly reinstated going into the early 70s.

I don't think I read too much into the social commentary, even for that time, in the lyric change. In the M&P's version ("pretend"), I read it as an excuse for the singer to get out of the cold...slip into the church to escape the cold; once, there, going through a motion to not look out of place. In the C's version ("began") it's more a natural inclination...perhaps to "pray" to be delivered from the cold to a warmer California. It's natural for people to pray for things they dream about. But that's just me...
 
I don't think I read too much into the social commentary, even for that time, in the lyric change. In the M&P's version ("pretend"), I read it as an excuse for the singer to get out of the cold...slip into the church to escape the cold; once, there, going through a motion to not look out of place. In the C's version ("began") it's more a natural inclination...perhaps to "pray" to be delivered from the cold to a warmer California. It's natural for people to pray for things they dream about. But that's just me...

I certainly could be reading into something that wasn’t originally intended, but I do think the social commentary angle does make sense in the context of these eras and two contrasting images of the M&P and C’s.
 
Karen and Richard were uncomfortable being cynical about religion.

Now, a reminder. There will be no discussion of religion here, so keep your comments away from that. It's tough, but I think it can be handled. If things go off the rails, we'll close the thread.

Could I get an Amen from the congregation.
 
What the ---? Lol
I'm so confused. haha

"Ocean came" vs. "Ocean King" and "clock in" vs. "walk in" ??

Either or can make sense, imo.

An Ocean can come in and
"walks along the shore of velveteen" can be a separate idea referring to seeing the love interest walking on a sandy beach.

I imagined a video like Karen singing out across the water and in the distance you see this hunky guy cross-fade in walking along with her.
Then, he disappears as she continues to sing into the second verse.

"Ocean King" can refer to a ship... Or it is taken from "Sea King" which means: any of the greater Viking pirate chiefs who led raids on the coasts of early medieval Europe - Collins English Dictionary.

If it was originally written as "Ocean Queen" that makes no sense either.
There isn't a reference anywhere to that term... it could mean Sea Godess, but The Carpenters wrote mostly secular music.
We weren't going mystical or supernatural until "Calling Occupants"... or so I thought.

And in terms of Mr.Guder... their second establishment song (next to Your Wonderful parade) "walk in" is simply easier to sing as opposed to "clock." I always thought Richard would typically go for more easier open-vowel sounds in their music.

Hmmm

Maybe we got a Carpenters Mandela Effect going on... :laugh:
We need Bettis or Rich to clear this up ASAP. We need all Carpenter-ologists on deck to solve this.
Big mystery going on in Carpenter-ology today. :razz:
 
"Queen" does make sense. If the song is being sung by a male voice, it would be:

Rising on the shore, the ocean queen
walks along the waves of velveteen
Her only thought, is love for me

....which makes total sense.

Another thought I had is that they too may have misheard the lyric and recorded it the way they heard it. I don’t own the original Mamas and Papas LP, so this would all be assuming that Karen and Richard owned the LP AND there was not a lyric sheet included.

Heck *I* always thought it was "began" to pray. I suppose it just seems that when the word "church" is mentioned, "began to pray" just seems to follow. But "pretend" makes sense too - a lot of meanings could be planted into that one small lyric.
 
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