New Carpenters Project For Richard - Ideas?

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Mike Blakesley said:
Well no, it sounds like an unfinished recording.

...

So I think it's safe to say that if you were to suggest to Richard to do away with all of the multitracks in an effort to showcase Karen's pure unadulterated voice, he might have a hard time deciding whether to laugh at the suggestion or just haul off and slug you.
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It sounds like an "unfinished recording" because it is - what's missing is some instrumentation, the layered background vocals of Richard and Karen (with which I have no problem) and, of course, Karen's doubled lead - when I said that this sounds better I was making specific reference to the sound of Karen's voice quality on that lead vocal without her doubled track - not to the overall recording. Her lead part only "sounds" unfinished because we're used to hearing it doubled. If we had never heard it that way we wouldn't think so.

Now, take this "single" lead and add in all the rest of the arrangement (instruments, background vocals as multi-layered as you please) and one has the perfect recording.

As far as Richard goes, he might get a tad disgruntled and call me everything but a gentleman and go stomping off in a huff - or he might be so surprised and stunned by the simple and obvious truth of the suggestion that he might ask me for a list of songs that I think should be made "unadulterated" (yes, I know - even I'm chuckling at that one. Two chances, slim and none)..
 
If you think the first lead is sparse, wait until you hear the second overdub by itself. I’ll put something together as a demonstration which will help drive the point.
 
I did a mix of "We've Only Just Begun" a while back that is stripped down but not completely that is linked below... It would be great if Richard did a similar concept, and maybe even with newly recorded stripped down arrangements. Richard playing piano and the curated choice of a handful of accompanying musicians in new arrangements would be heavenly!

 
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JohnFB said:
It sounds like an "unfinished recording" because it is - what's missing is some instrumentation, the layered background vocals of Richard and Karen (with which I have no problem) and, of course, Karen's doubled lead - when I said that this sounds better I was making specific reference to the sound of Karen's voice quality on that lead vocal without her doubled track - not to the overall recording. Her lead part only "sounds" unfinished because we're used to hearing it doubled. If we had never heard it that way we wouldn't think so.

Now, take this "single" lead and add in all the rest of the arrangement (instruments, background vocals as multi-layered as you please) and one has the perfect recording.

As far as Richard goes, he might get a tad disgruntled and call me everything but a gentleman and go stomping off in a huff - or he might be so surprised and stunned by the simple and obvious truth of the suggestion that he might ask me for a list of songs that I think should be made "unadulterated" (yes, I know - even I'm chuckling at that one. Two chances, slim and none)..
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can we please let this issue rest? these recordings are art created by richard and karen carpenter. if you don't care for the way monet used depth perception in one painting, don't buy that painting. carpenters captured the world with THEIR craft. herb alpert saw fit to let them explore and create; respect his judgement. i know and appreciate your position, you have eloquent presented your case, but this is not a court, the procedures and product will not change.
 
I know this is in vain but I'd love to see a release of songs they sang on TV appearances that have Never been officially released like the live stuff from Make Your Own Kind Of Music , the live Thank You For The Music from Johnny Carson., the Carol Burnett show duets, the stuff with John Denver...so much still gathering dust. I know there are new fans coming up but a lot of us are in our late 50's and up. I hope you get my drift
 
motownboy said:
I did a mix of "We've Only Just Begun" a while back that is stripped down but not completely that is linked below... It would be great if Richard did a similar concept, and maybe even with newly recorded stripped down arrangements. Richard playing piano and the curated choice of a handful of accompanying musicians in new arrangements would be heavenly!

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Like a Carpenters unplugged? That would be awesome
 
KarenFan2020 said:
Like a Carpenters unplugged? That would be awesome
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Saw this before somewhere here recently and was going to search for it - great job motownboy, really like this!

Here's what someone said in a comment to the video: Woah, This is some kind of wonderful- to hear her singular voice with out it being doubled, and without the backing vocals. Her voice is so wonderfully intense without belting into the microphone.. just exquisite.
Nothing here to argue with...
 
JohnFB said:
Thanks much Chris! This sounds great! It's what I've wanted to hear for many years. It's what I've always imagined. And yes, I understand about the "puzzle pieces", but they didn't really have to make them so numerous or complex.

And yes, I will say without reservation that it does sound better than the doubled lead - much better. And it does so because it's her, just her, and only her - her real, wonderful, natural, unadulterated voice! And if she was in fact holding back in anticipation of doubling the lead later, then think of how much stronger and resonant this sample would have been if she wasn't "holding back".

There is not now, never was and never would be any possible, rational musical reason to ever F*** with that voice in any way - doing so is tantamount to committing a "musical sacrilege" (ok, that's a tad melodramatic, but you must get my passion here...).

But, I blame them both - Richard for pushing that artificial recording technique so forcefully and for so long, and Karen for meekly going along with his program and not protesting vehemently and refusing to cooperate - after all, she possessed the power to make or break them...she could have prevented this, and why wouldn't she - it was her voice...
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Maybe you should stick with the "live" performances where it's only one Karen voice?
 
Geographer said:
Maybe you should stick with the "live" performances where it's only one Karen voice?
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Maybe - but that would be very limiting, wouldn't it? And there are a lot of maybes possible. For example, maybe if they had recorded the songs like they performed them live there wouldn't be a problem here

They all were good enough that maybe they really didn't need to record the various components of an arrangement piecemeal - maybe they could easily have recorded every song live with all parts at once. And maybe Karen & Richard didn't really need to provide multi-layered background vocals - the band members (including Richard) did that just fine in concert. And maybe they really didn't have to employ all sorts of strange, artificial recording tricks and techniques just because they could.
 
Harry said:
Ugh. I - and Richard - are on record as really hating the way Carpenters sounded live. If they'd maybe had a few girl singers along, it might have been better.
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I think a large part of the problem was that the backing singers were all male - which meant some of the harmonies had to be sung in forced falsetto. It didn’t sound natural. I agree female singers would have been much better.
 
Harry said:
Ugh. I - and Richard - are on record as really hating the way Carpenters sounded live. If they'd maybe had a few girl singers along, it might have been better.
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He wanted their live concerts to sound exactly like their records, but there was just no way in hell that was going to happen, because as beautiful as it often was it wasn't real or natural - but they could have gotten a lot closer - yes, I agree that one or two girl singers would have made a big difference - the right singers, with contrasting voices that still blended well with Karen - in the beginning even a couple of friends who were in the choir with them at Cal St. - Long Beach (who might have been thrilled with the chance) - or if they could have worked it out, Leslie Johnston who sang with them in Spectrum - in fact, I think they actually offered her the role near the start but she turned them down because she knew she'd always only be a harmony/backup singer (smart girl) - it's not as if after a couple of hit records that they couldn't afford to carry an extra singer or two in the traveling entourage...and what was the name of that one girl singer who did sing on one (or more) of their records later on and sounded real good?
 
Harry said:
Ugh. I - and Richard - are on record as really hating the way Carpenters sounded live. If they'd maybe had a few girl singers along, it might have been better.
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Wow, strong words. I enjoy them live in some videos but, having never actually been to a concert (a lifelong regret), I feel I have less opinion to work with than those who have.

As for the female background singers - I cannot imagine that was not at least talked about/considered, but for whatever reason the choice was made not to include them on tour. One thought - Karen's voice was so singularly unique that it made it more difficult to find singers that blended well with her, or didn't over-power her. Using male backing vocals may have caused some issues in terms of sounding "exactly like the record", but it also contrasted the beauty of Karen's voice, methinks.
 
I never understood the desire of artists to make their concerts sound just like the record. A concert is the perfect opportunity to stretch and bend your sound a little. If you want to sound just like the record, then what's the point of playing live -- you could just lip sync it.

A lot of people go to concerts hoping to hear the exact same thing they're hearing on the record, but I feel like I've been cheated if the band doesn't stretch a little on the stage. Sergio Mendes is one of the best examples of this.... many of the live versions of his songs are vastly different from the studio counterparts. That's a plus, not a minus, in my book.

The reason Richard wanted their concerts to sound like the recordings is, he considered Carpenters to be "creatures of the studio," meaning they didn't feel their true showcase was in their concerts. It was on their records. The fact that he keeps tweaking their recordings to this day indicates why he was probably NEVER completely satisfied with their sound in a particular concert.
 
This is a subject that fans come down on both sides of. I've noted many fans who would be eager to support all kinds of live releases since they know that Richard has tapes of all of them. But I can also see Richard's point - when they've already released great studio recordings, why would anyone want to hear the sub-par live recordings? The balances between the instruments and the vocals are often way off, there's all kinds of echoes from the live venue, not to mention the audience noises.

If there's already a great recording of "Superstar" out there on many CDs and records and tapes, why would anyone want to hear how "Superstar" sounded in Podunk in 1974? It's probably not all that different from how they did "Superstar" in Japan - which is readily available.
 
Harry said:
This is a subject that fans come down on both sides of. I've noted many fans who would be eager to support all kinds of live releases since they know that Richard has tapes of all of them. But I can also see Richard's point - when they've already released great studio recordings, why would anyone want to hear the sub-par live recordings? The balances between the instruments and the vocals are often way off, there's all kinds of echoes from the live venue, not to mention the audience noises.

If there's already a great recording of "Superstar" out there on many CDs and records and tapes, why would anyone want to hear how "Superstar" sounded in Podunk in 1974? It's probably not all that different from how they did "Superstar" in Japan - which is readily available.
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This is spot on.

One thing that most people don’t realize about Richard is that he is very hard on himself in terms of the majority of their catalog. He pictured something going in to each and every arrangement and production. More often times than not, he feels he somehow missed the mark because it wasn’t EXACTLY what he pictured.

He beats himself up often about a number of posthumous recordings of him and Karen that he’s released. Many he says Karen would have laid into him over if she knew he’d released them.

So the last thing he’s about to do is strip things down, when he’s already feeling like what was there still wasn’t right.
 
Chris May said:
This is spot on.

One thing that most people don’t realize about Richard is that he is very hard on himself in terms of the majority of their catalog. He pictured something going in to each and every arrangement and production. More often times than not, he feels he somehow missed the mark because it wasn’t EXACTLY what he pictured.

He beats himself up often about a number of posthumous recordings of him and Karen that he’s released. Many he says Karen would have laid into him over if she knew he’d released them.

So the last thing he’s about to do is strip things down, when he’s already feeling like what was there still wasn’t right.
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The last three sentences make me a bit sad. Richard is a musical genius and their recordings are nothing less than works of art. I hope he understands that one day.
 
Chris May said:
This is spot on.

One thing that most people don’t realize about Richard is that he is very hard on himself in terms of the majority of their catalog. He pictured something going in to each and every arrangement and production. More often times than not, he feels he somehow missed the mark because it wasn’t EXACTLY what he pictured.

He beats himself up often about a number of posthumous recordings of him and Karen that he’s released. Many he says Karen would have laid into him over if she knew he’d released them.

So the last thing he’s about to do is strip things down, when he’s already feeling like what was there still wasn’t right.
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I'm not surprised to read this, sad as it is. Creative people in general are harder on themselves than any fan or critic could ever be.

I hope Richard knows that the vast majority of fans have a deep affection for all he has done, both during and after the Carpenters "heyday", and experienced endless hours of enjoyment through his work.

As for Karen, of course I cannot speak for her, but I suspect that she would be very happy that so many people still love their music and the caretaking that Richard has painstakingly worked on since her passing.
 
Chris May said:
He beats himself up often about a number of posthumous recordings of him and Karen that he’s released. Many he says Karen would have laid into him over if she knew he’d released them.
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I can’t think of much from Lovelines that is sub-par but I’d venture a guess that about half the tracks he released on Voice Of The Heart falls into that category.
 
JohnFB said:
Maybe - but that would be very limiting, wouldn't it? And there are a lot of maybes possible. For example, maybe if they had recorded the songs like they performed them live there wouldn't be a problem here

They all were good enough that maybe they really didn't need to record the various components of an arrangement piecemeal - maybe they could easily have recorded every song live with all parts at once. And maybe Karen & Richard didn't really need to provide multi-layered background vocals - the band members (including Richard) did that just fine in concert. And maybe they really didn't have to employ all sorts of strange, artificial recording tricks and techniques just because they could.
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i guess we aren't going to let this go.
 
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