Pronunciations

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I don't believe anyone has said that any pronunciations diminish the works of the Carpenters in any way. It's all been the way it is for 50+ years. We have all of their wonderful recordings, most of us many times over, and enjoy them to this day. I just bristle a little when I encounter people who say that Richard most emphatically had a lisp and yet they don't hear or see the same (to a lesser degree) in Karen. They are and were human - we all have our "faults" if you choose to look at this as a fault.

Remember, this started in the "almost perfect" thread and branched off.
 
I don't believe anyone has said that any pronunciations diminish the works of the Carpenters in any way. It's all been the way it is for 50+ years. We have all of their wonderful recordings, most of us many times over, and enjoy them to this day. I just bristle a little when I encounter people who say that Richard most emphatically had a lisp and yet they don't hear or see the same (to a lesser degree) in Karen. They are and were human - we all have our "faults" if you choose to look at this as a fault.

Remember, this started in the "almost perfect" thread and branched off.
Alright. I understand that. Got it. Thanks for the clarification, Harry. :)


I find it kind of amusing sometimes on fan boards when randomly threads pop up about everything you should expect from the artist.
It's almost like saying "Gee, Carpenters make rock that is soft and easy to listen to, huh?"
I mean, well yeah that's the way they are. :razz:

I've seen fans on Michael Jackson message boards talking about Michael Jackson's accent.
And well of course he was born and raised in Gary, Indiana. Like umm of course he has words that he might say differently...
Then board members go around finding clips and song parts where he says things.
I guess I just personally don't see why all the fuss about it. It is what it is. That's the makings of who the artist is.

"Boy, Dolly Parton has a southern accent and sings country music doesn't she?" .... umm yes of course she does. haha
Why would anybody expect anything other than that? If she suddenly sounded Cockney British then we might have a problem.
I guess Dolly may not be the best example because she just finished making a rock album, but you know what I mean. Lol

I'd be a bit worried if there wasn't any kind of lisp, accent or 'soft' ways about The C's. It wouldn't make a ton of sense at this point.
It's part of their character and Karen's delivery is what makes it recognizable. I can't imagine Karen singing in a generic way.

I mean, they did sing in a traditional way, yet Karen had her own way of sneaking in these little things that reminded you of who she was. Part of that intimacy and one-on-one connection that she had. The Carpenters may not have seen the success they had if they were going after a more generic radio sound. Sometimes those blemishes or faults can be blessings in disguise.
 
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As a middle-aged male stammerer (not severe, though) for about 50 years, I'm acutely aware of
ANY difficulties in how a speaker/singer forms and utters words.

Re: Karen

In my first post, I gave We've only Just Begun as an example.

A far more prominent lisp (probably, the most clear-cut), however, can be found on From this
Moment On
(Tonight Show, hosted by Steve Martin, 1977.)

When the lyrics (towards the end of the song) are: "When every care is gone", Karen, instead,
sings: "When every care ith gone".

In other words, the word "is" was replaced by "ith" (the soft 's' was replaced by the harder, but
redundant, 'th'.)

The song concludes with the titular words: 'From this Moment On'; however, Karen, again,
sings the harder 'th' - so that "this" sounds like "thisth".

If you don't believe me, please play the said version of From this Moment On, and, if necessary,
press the 'Play Back' button.

The reason why I broached the subject of diction/pronunciation at all is that I'm firmly of the
view that the way that Karen (negatively) viewed both her appearance (anorexia) and the
difficulties she, sometimes, faced in forming/uttering words, contributed to her alleged
lack of self-confidence
.

In Ray Coleman's biography (The Untold Story), Justin Heywood (of the Moody Blues) was
somewhat surprised by Karen's lack of self-confidence (She was 31 at the time) when he
met her at a party arranged to launch Made in America.

If I've got my facts straight, Heywood said that, in his view, Karen lacked the confidence of
a 'normal 31 year old woman'.

What caused this lack of self-confidence? (No-one knows. Did Karen?)

Obviously, it wasn't:

(i) lack of wealth.

Karen was, apparently, pretty frugal - although spending $ 400,000 on her
aborted solo album, no doubt, played on her mind.

Is that why she "insisted" on Beechwood 4-5789 being included on the
said album?

Did she hope that the song would emulate Please Mr. Postman in sales
- and re-coup her money?

(ii) lack of talent (Hardly! For she had talent in spades - and she knew it!)

(iii) her (and Richard's) parents (Agnes and Harold)?

Agnes, in particular, has received a lot of flak, over the years (for allegedly,
being "cold"/"unemotional.")

As if being "cold"/"unemotional" was ever a crime!

Karen, after all, heeded Agnes' words of counsel (regardless of how
blunt they were) to go ahead with the marriage to Tom Burris.

Karen may very well have thought that she was in control of her weight (by purging; etc)
- but what she certainly wasn't in control of was how she formed/uttered words (Is it too
harsh to say that she had a speech impediment - albeit very slight?)

You may think that I've blown this matter out of all proportion - but, please, take it from me
... having a lisp/stammer has life-long detrimental effects (resulting in, amongst other things,
embarrassment, low confidence levels, difficulties in obtaining employment, making
friends, meeting members of the opposite sex; etc.,) and shouldn't drive people "nuts",
grate on their nerves, or for them to pity us (which is the last thing we'd want.)

I hope you all enjoy this sober (but speculative) post.

I know that Agnes and Richard have been vilified (especially, on You-Tube) for allegedly
contributing to Karen's lack of self-confidence (some of the posts are obnoxious and
probably libellous); however, I repeat, I hold, in good faith, the view that Karen's
lack of self-confidence resulted from what may be deemed a speech impediment.

Any thoughts?

I hope to send you all a far more light-hearted post, soon.

All the best,

Steve.

Well thought out. I can't say that I know exactly from experience, but I appreciate posts like this. Thanks for sharing your story.

In the 1977 performance of From This Moment On I passed it off as either poor quality of the footage or just Karen's styling.
Once pointed out yes you can argue it is a slight lisp.
Honestly, I have good ears, but amazingly enough I never really noticed it or thought about it as much.

It's ambiguous and never occurred to me. I've always heard Richard had his lisp highlighted and to me it wasn't an issue. It didn't distract me from his genius as a producer, pianist, composer, arranger, etc.

Perhaps in the 1970s people were more cruel towards persons living with speech impediments or tourettes or OCD (otherwise known as doubting disorder).
Actually an Eating Disorder is really an off-shoot of OCD in terms of diagnostics. It is an anxiety disorder and perhaps had something to do with Karen's level of confidence.

I don't think a lisp would have been a significant contributing factor to her self-esteem. It hasn't been mentioned in books or documentaries as much as other areas of her life. On that note, I don't think Richard ever thought of his as having any effect or hinderance on his career either. Nor should it.

I find it sad that there are people living with such conditions that feel so self-conscious about it. In today's world I think there's been more efforts to create more tolerance for such conditions. Both having respect for those who may have corrected their speech impediment, but also providing a sense of dignity for those who may still live with one.

In all honesty, as a fan for about 20 years, Karen having a lisp, accent, vocal fry or such things didn't occur to me as being any issue or anything. That's not really the focal point. I think her ability to carry long phrases and her magnificent tone was up front and centre.

Who knows maybe it was part of her early discomfort being encouraged out to front the band. Her lack of confidence will remain a mystery, but I think that has more to do with the complications from the distortions from her form of OCD or Anorexia Nervosa.

That part we all know too well she was trying to put into a state of remission by the early 80s. The mental health factor has more to do with how she saw herself and how she didn't feel she deserved credit. As well her environment likely played a part which maybe didn't leave her feeling so great. But I won't rehash all of that for now. In such a complex case, it is difficult to point to any one thing in how she saw herself.

It is this mystery that is exactly another reason we're still talking about her today.
How could such a sweet, lovely person feel so low as she did? If only she could have seen herself the way many of us fans do. I would've wished her all the best in the world and that she found peace and wellbeing.
 
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Adding my two bucks (pennies are essentially completely workless now heh)...just last night I was watching Netflix and noted that one of the female characters had the exact same "lisp" I've heard at times with Karen. For me, it is clearly heard on certain "s" words when Karen sings.

@Harry's post explains why this happens in terms of physiology; I happen to find Karen's type of lisp minimal and just enough to be a bit sexy; just as I did the actor in the Netflix show last night.
 
Adding my two bucks (pennies are essentially completely workless now
:laugh: Good one @David A

I re-read this thread a couple of times because I was afraid that maybe my comments or someone else’s comments came across as fault-finding toward Karen, RIchard or anyone else and that would have really weighed heavily on me because that just couldn’t be further from the truth.

I’m pretty new here. I have only been a member for a few months, but long enough to know that everyone in the thread, including myself, has this one thing in common. We all have the utmost respect and admiration for both Karen and for Richard or we wouldn’t be here.

The thing about this forum is knowing that people won’t always agree, but you are among others that all share the same passion you do. Yes, passion occasionally leads to things getting a little crazy once in a blue moon, however our Admins are absolutely celestial.

Keeping it light. Time for me to reset and listen to some Richard Carpenter’s Piano Songbook.
 
Not to beat it into the ground here, but simply for the sake of the discussion, listen to Karen in this interview from ‘70. Her lisp was definitely present and more prominent in the early days:

 
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