Pronunciations

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Mike Blakesley

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One tiny thing that has always driven me nuts is on "A Song For You," at the end where Karen repeats "and when my life is over," she slurs over the "S" in the word "is", so it comes out like "when my life ithover." And then the same thing repeats on the reprise. I'm a bit surprised they never fixed that, since it doesn't seem like something that would have been intentional.
 
One tiny thing that has always driven me nuts is on "A Song For You," at the end where Karen repeats "and when my life is over," she slurs over the "S" in the word "is", so it comes out like "when my life ithover." And then the same thing repeats on the reprise. I'm a bit surprised they never fixed that, since it doesn't seem like something that would have been intentional.

That’s always grated on me too. At another point in the song, she almost doesn’t pronounce the “s” at all, so it becomes “when my life i-over”.
 
One tiny thing that has always driven me nuts is on "A Song For You," at the end where Karen repeats "and when my life is over," she slurs over the "S" in the word "is", so it comes out like "when my life ithover." And then the same thing repeats on the reprise. I'm a bit surprised they never fixed that, since it doesn't seem like something that would have been intentional.
If not intentional then are you saying that that's not how she sang it, but that's how the recording apparatus or mixing process somehow picked it up?

But maybe it was intentional. Maybe consciously or sub-consciously she sang this Blues-laced song exactly like she had heard any number of other songs of the Blues genre sung by many female Jazz/Blues artists on the countless records she listened to over and over while growing up. After all, Karen was renowned for - among several other things - her perfect diction, and these "listening sessions" in their basement as kids were her primary training ground as a vocalist/song stylist.

So, I've always been under the impression that there was something fundamentally different in how she sang this particular song - and that that was intentional.
 
I feel compelled to reply to comments (by Mike Blakesley and newvillefan) re: Karen's alleged slurring ("and when my life is over" sounding like "and when my life ithover".)

This "slurring"couldn't be helped, I'm afraid, as Karen had a slight lisp (in particular, with words that have a 's' in them.)

Have to disagree I’m afraid. Of the 100+ tracks they ever committed to tape, this wasn’t the case on 99.9% of them. Otherwise her diction wouldn’t have been clear on their entire recorded catalogue.
 
I've always had a penchant for correct pronunciation and diction. And I've always maintained that Karen had a slight lisp, just like her brother, but not quite as pronounced.

In Karen's case, her S sounds usually came out sounding largely correct, but when I watch her mouth as she sings or speaks, I can detect a slight lisp in the way she forms her S's.

As one who occasionally watches Jeopardy! on TV, I detect an even more pronounced lisp from Ken Jennings, but if I just listen, it's barely detectable. But when I watch him speak, I can see his tongue getting in the way of his S sounds.

Now, regarding "and when my life is over", that lighter "s" is a jazzy, stylistic way of pronunciation. I've heard that style on many jazz or soul type recordings, though I can't name one at the moment, but I'm thinking someone like an Al Jarreau.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
One tiny thing that has always driven me nuts is on "A Song For You," at the end where Karen repeats "and when my life is over," she slurs over the "S" in the word "is", so it comes out like "when my life ithover." And then the same thing repeats on the reprise. I'm a bit surprised they never fixed that, since it doesn't seem like something that would have been intentional.
Karen actually had a slight lisp that improved as she got older. Although often times what you’re describing was caused by her resting her top teeth onto her lower lip when she would form an “s.” It also sounds as if she pulled back from the mic slightly. Either of these could have easily caused this.
 
Yes, they both had a similar lisp when speaking (Richard’s was more noticeable). But interestingly enough - at least according to what my ears tell me - Karen’s lisp was gone whenever she sang, while Richard’s remained, whenever his voice was heard by itself (“and yes we’ve just beguuuun”), but I kind of like the sound of it. It’s what makes RC’s singing style unique.
 
...

Now, regarding "and when my life is over", that lighter "s" is a jazzy, stylistic way of pronunciation. I've heard that style on many jazz or soul type recordings, though I can't name one at the moment, but I'm thinking someone like an Al Jarreau.

...
So, I'm lying awake at 3 this morning thinking about this song and this discussion. I get up, put on my headphones, go to YouTube and call up the "lyric version" (to avoid all distractions of the images of Karen) and listen over and over. I hear absolutely no lisping from her - neither on the phrase "...and when my life is over..." nor anywhere else in her rendition. What I do hear is the obvious pronunciation of the word over as ova, exchanging the a ending for the er ending. And she does this throughout the song. For example, in this section:

You taught me precious secrets
Of the truth withholding nothing
You came out in front and I was hiding
But now I'm so much better
And if my words don't come together
Listen to the melody because my love is in there hiding,

the word better is sung as betta and together as togetha...also, all ing words have the g dropped throughout the song (nothin', hidin', etc.).

All of which is indicative of a woman singing a Blusey song in the Blusey style (the Jazzy style Harry mentioned above) that has long since been ingrained in her subconscious mind as the way these types of songs could be and should be sung (after all, that's how Billie or Ella or Sarah would have sung them). There is no other song where she does this. In other songs her diction, her pronunciation, is letter perfect.

She might not have gotten away with a version like this today. The hyper-sensitive "woke" crowd would be condemning her and cancelling her for "trying to be Black" and for "cultural appropriation".
 
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Most singers are taught that the "r" sound in songs should be de-emphasized, so a word like "over" should be sung as "ova".

Regarding the "lisp", I found this on a quick Google search for what it's worth. It's from a Quora page by someone who claims to have a Masters in Speech-Language Pathology:
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Synthia McBride - Master's degree in Speech-Language Pathology

I just watched a interview done in 1981 with Joan Lunden. It was very hard to watch because it was obvious just how sick Karen was at that time.
To correctly produce an /s/ in English the tip of the tongue is held against the back of either the top or bottom front teeth and a tiny opening is made with the tongue in which air is forced through the top ridge of the teeth.
There are two types of lisps that can occur when speaking in English. There are 4 sounds that can be lisped: /s/, /z/, /sh/, /zh/ (as in azure). In my experience the /s/ is the most common sound that is affected by a lisp.
A “frontal lisp” occurs when the tip of the tongue protrudes to some degree between the front teeth.
There is also a “lateral lisp” is when the tongue stays behind the teeth but the air is allow to escape out of the sides of the tongue, not the front. This type of lisp is harder to correct.
From what I can tell by watching the grainy interview, I think the siblings had lateral lisps.
I do not have enough information to tell why they both have the lisp. I do not know if it is shared familial facial anatomical structure, learned from a parent who has a similar lisp, an affectation, or other reasons.

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As I mentioned above, and using this as a reference, I believe Ken Jennings on Jeopardy! has the "frontal lisp" type as I can often see his tongue getting in the way.
 
Most singers are taught that the "r" sound in songs should be de-emphasized, so a word like "over" should be sung as "ova".

If I might say so, that’s why his leads sound at times contrived. He over-emphasises a lot of his consonants/vowels when he sings, particularly “t” and “o”. Examples:

I’m Still Not Over You: “Dooo I really have to say”
Druscilla Penny: “you’re very pretty”

His daughter Mindi also has the same singing style, over-emphasising the lyric on “little altarrr boy”.

Karen always avoided that.
 
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Most singers are taught that the "r" sound in songs should be de-emphasized, so a word like "over" should be sung as "ova

This is an interesting topic. I also have wondered before about the missing r's and I kind of chalked it off to being raised in New England. Karen's speaking voice sounds to me is an interesting combination of dialect rooted in influences of Baltimore sub-variety of Philadelphia English/New England/Southern California.

Karen and Richard of course were born and raised in New Haven, CT and transferred to Downey, Ca however their mother Agnes Carpenter and her family were from Baltimore, MD and this is where Karen could have naturally picked up part of her dialect. This is near where I was brought up and I hear remarkable similarities in dialect from time to time in different interviews.

But now your reference to singers purposely de-emphasizing the "r" makes a lot of sense. The absence of r’s in ASFY seems to be more of a chosen style and after all Karen was consummate in her diction. Still at other times, I can't help but hear for example when Mr. Guder is sang Mr Gouda, it sounds like a normal pronunciation in the Northeast to me. Regardless, as @newvillefan said, whatever her influences were, Karen was on her own unique plateau and we bought it (still buying it).
 
Fascinating debate. At times I wish we could do an online webinar to discuss stuff like this. I’d really enjoy that.
 
I was taught that "r" thing back in high school chorus, and we still try to do that in my community chorus.

Though I really like the song, The Cranberries "Linger" has the most OVER-emphasized "r's" I've ever heard. It's probably Delores O'Riordan's natural Irish brogue, but it's really noticeable. "I'm such a fool ferrrrrrr you."

 
Though I really like the song, The Cranberries "Linger" has the most OVER-emphasized "r's" I've ever heard. It's probably Delores O'Riordan's natural Irish brogue, but it's really noticeable. "I'm such a fool ferrrrrrr you."



Yeah I think it’s her natural Irish accent but it is overdone a bit, the Irish don’t talk like that :laugh:. This is one of my all time favourite songs. It brings back memories of being a student abroad during my gap year in 1994. We’d been on a long day out and on the way back in the car, as we were all falling asleep, this came on the radio.
 
it is overdone a bit, the Irish don’t talk like that :laugh:
In fact, it MAY have been an attempt to have a hit in the US. I've noticed that when British actors try to sound "American" they often exaggerate their R's. The British of course tend to minimize their R's, the way we were taught in chorus singing.
 
Sorry Steve, but as often and as closely as I've listened to Karen sing I've never heard a lisp. Richard yes, and a pronounced one, which helped to diminish the appeal of his singing. But, Karen - never heard that in there.

Guess I'll have to listen a little closer - if that's at all possible...

She definitely had one. It wasn't intrusive the way Richard's often was but it was there. The aforementioned "white lace and promises" line in "We've Only Just Begun" is definitive proof that she had one. As the years progressed, there was less of it. For my part, it never bothered me. That's just her humanity coming through and it never took me out of her performances.

Ed
 
She definitely had one. It wasn't intrusive the way Richard's often was but it was there. The aforementioned "white lace and promises" line in "We've Only Just Begun" is definitive proof that she had one. As the years progressed, there was less of it. For my part, it never bothered me. That's just her humanity coming through and it never took me out of her performances.

Ed
Ed - I just listened over and over and I can truly say that I still don't hear a lisp there...very soft "s" sounds yes, but not what I would call a lisp. Maybe my old ears just aren't sensitive enough anymore...but if you hear one I'm glad it doesn't effect your appreciation of the beauty and brilliance of her singing on those 1st two verses of this great song.
 
Stop "listening" for the lisp. Watch for it in videos. It's not something that's audible, since it wasn't all that pronounced. But if you just watch her mouth as she sings or talks, and you can SEE it.
 
Well, Harry, with all due respect, if that alleged lisp is virtually inaudible - if I can't HEAR it - then for all intents and purposes IT DOESN'T EXIST - as far as I'm concerned.

So, it really doesn't matter what her lovely mouth is doing (and believe me, I've watched that very closely over the years).If her mouth forms the shape that would normally create a lisp but one can't hear that lisp then we don't have a lisp.

A lisp is only a problem for a singer if it can be HEARD - if it's a problem at all.
 
Well, that's just it. No-one has said through this thread that it was a problem. It mostly cannot be detected by listening (except for those of us who are sensitive to that sort of thing). You are obviously not, and that's a good thing for you. So what I believe is a familial lisp affected her, but not seriously.
 
Stop "listening" for the lisp. Watch for it in videos. It's not something that's audible, since it wasn't all that pronounced. But if you just watch her mouth as she sings or talks, and you can SEE it.
It is extremely rarely noticed in the singing, but yes one can see it in her videos as she moves her lips. But, for some of us, certainly for me, it has actually become a feature of hers that makes her unique, interesting and beautiful, and that I have come to love.
 
I never really noticed it as much until this thread. I thought A Song For You was regarded as a really nice rendition.

It's very subtle and I think it's more closely related to her style and the technology at the time than a mispronunciation.
That's just my opinion. Some of these things were fixed in later remixes like "Tumtimes" in Crystal Lullaby (during the beginning of verse 2).
Karen should say "Sometimes when I listen to..." but her "S" was cut off by mistake and this was corrected years later.

You could argue perhaps ever-so-slightly there's something off on the pronunciation, but that's because Karen sang at an almost whisper-like level.
So if you try to sing where your voice is barely audible, in an almost hypnotic or sleepy state, then when you try to pronounce everything to a Tee you can't really. That's part of the style.

I'm saying that it's not something I've associated with any lisp from Karen. It's more like pillow-talk than it is a speech impediment.

There's nothing wrong with a speech impediment even if she did have one. As far as what I've picked up over the years, I never heard any lisp from KC. Richard definitely has one, but it's also the Carpenters technique and the way they make it easy-listening records.
If it wasn't soft-rock, easy listening, then I might expect more diction and an attack on the constants.

My question for this thread is: Would you rather Karen to act as if she's on broadway and in your face with each constants and exact pronunciation? That's kind of off-brand is it not?
I'd be more put off if it was even more broadway style than it is.
It's bizarre to see a thread like this only because Carpenters were criticized for "Calling Occupants" and their pronunciation being too spot-on.

So which is it?

I think they're human and indeed they might have accents come through their recordings, mispronunciations, a lot of vocal fry, musus-y tone, sing off the beat and slight errors in their phrasing, etc.
I never found it all that bothersome and think it's a very, very fine record. A special one indeed because of how it closes "The Karen Carpenter Story" as well. It's a hauntingly beautiful sound.

I agree when Karen said how an audience won't let artists grow a little. Is she not allowed to try something different? Maybe it was something maybe a bit jazz inspired, but in her own way?
She's singing so soft that yeah she's barely hitting some of those constants but that's part of her artistry. I guess at that time she felt A Song For You should be sung that way. Again I don't think there's anything bothersome about her stylistic/artistic choices.

In an age where everything's computerized and set exactly on the beat on a grid in music software, it worries me how many folks have become accustomed to absolute perfection when it comes to music.
That's what I think this comes from is how much we're used to everything being corrected by a computer to the point where people are bothered by regular natural singing or vocalizations.

I absolutely adore the C's records as they are and appreciate the remixes too where Richard tried to address some of these issues. But there's a point where I think the nitpicking goes too far. I'm guilty as much as any fan for finding tiny details.
I've noticed "Uninvited Guest" has more of a problematic sound in different parts only because it was left unfinished on Karen's part, but very glad we have it for our collections. I might point to something like that before saying anything about a title track, hit single or much loved song. I've never taken issue with Karen's accent or pronunciations. That's what makes it Karen.
 
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