Ralph Carmichael

[richard_sloat]

Speaking of LeadSister.com:

http://amcorner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=102040#102040

It bringed back to my mind something I was always curious about:

http://www.leadsister.com/forums/in...ype=topics&highlite=+surrender+lyrics+changed

http://www.leadsister.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8980&hl=surrender+lyrics+changed

"Love Is Surrender" was written by Ralph Carmichael who was a Christian songwriter and choir director. I believe this may have been a song that Karen and Richard sang when they performed in choirs in high school. They changed one line, "You must surrender to His will..." and made a pop song out of it...

Then I Google searched it:

http://www.google.com.br/#hl=pt-BR&...ender"&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&fp=8be7758d8d6384a1

http://www.ralphcarmichael.com/

You may have heard songs I created for musicals from "Tell It Like It Is" and "Natural High"; such as, Tell It Like It Is, Love Is Surrender, Brother Let me Take Your Hand, and My Little World.

Well, in fact I don't know exactly how I was misleaded into thinking Love is surrender was such an obscure and hard to find song in its original lyrics and started this thread to ask about whether it was recorded before by another artist... or was it staged only. Google search has provided me with at least one source to the original song but recorded decades after the Carpenters did:

http://www.google.com.br/#hl=pt-BR&...+will"&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&fp=8be7758d8d6384a1

http://www.namethathymn.com/hymn-lyrics-detective-forum/index.php?a=vtopic&t=210

The hymn is by Ralph Carmichael, and was adapted into a popular song recorded by the Carpenters in the early 1970's. A recording of the song is available on this CD:

Ralph Carmichael and Friends CD

I hope this helps. Here are the lyrics:

1.
Talk about love
how it makes life complete
You can talk all you want
make it sound nice and sweet,
But the words have an empty ring,
and they don't really mean a thing,

Chorus:
Without Him love is not to be found;
not to be found.
For love is surrender,
Love is surrender to His will
Love is surrender to His will

2.
Sing about love
and the strength it can give
You can sing how you're ready
to face life and live,
But you know as the days go by
that no matter how hard you try,

Chorus

3.
Shout about love
and the wars will all end
You can shout we're all brothers
and even pretend
But you can't cover up the past
just pretending we'll never last,

Chorus

OK, so these were/are the original Carmichael lyrics as written by Mr. steveliu from wherever as posted online and Richard has changed a little bit more than just one line. The second verse also sounds very nice to be sung and Richard deleted it, I wonder why... maybe he wanted the song to be shortened down, just that. I'm curious now to know whether he has altered the melody as well, perhaps I'll try to listen to Mr. Carmichael CD and check it out.

In reality the final lines from those lyrics got me a bit confused... I have read online that the lyrics to the Carpenters version were "just PRETEND WE WERE NEVER LOST". That would make much more sense in a Christian music context to me because of Adam and Eve, as they were threw out of Eden, humanity was "LOST", so to speak, and that one would the "PAST" people would try to "COVER UP" in the song. "But you can't cover up the past / just pretending we'll never last" sounds a bit misterious to me, how can pretending we'll never LAST (future) make a "cover-up" for the "past"? Unless "pretending we'll never last" refer to the Christian belief that each human individual has in immortal soul and we can't pretend we don't and that we won't "LAST", I suppose. The "PAST" reference is still obscure to me. Of course the lyrics Mr. steveliu has provided may just be wrong.

Funny that Get together (by the Carpenters) was played in my Winamp Carpenters playlist while I was typing this and that one is a song that surely sounds like a Christian song. However I couldn't find a specifically Christian reference to it in Google search:

http://www.google.com.br/search?hl=...ungbloods+"get+together"&aq=f&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Youngbloods

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Together_(Chet_Powers_song)

Except for this:

However, renewed interest in the Youngbloods' version came when it was used in a television public service announcement as a call for brotherhood by the National Conference of Christians and Jews. The Youngbloods' version, the most-remembered today, was re-released in 1969, peaking at #5 on the Billboard Hot 100, and has been featured in several films, including Purple Haze, Forrest Gump, Stephen Kings Riding the Bullet; and Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

I simply always assumed Get together was a Gospel-written song because it seems to clearly refer to Christianity in the lines "when the one who left us here / returns for us at last", this seemed to be totally about the return of the Messiah/Second Coming of Christ!! I guess I was wrong! Or perhaps not... perhaps Chet Powers just never has said it officially so.

EDIT: So Mr. mtstaft has mentioned this subject as well...

http://amcorner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=86678#86678

This Ralph Carmichael tune is just the vehicle to show the duo's versatility, taking on a contemporary Christian song for a new spin. The rhythm track shines with playful vocals, making me a believer.

Interestingly, Mr. mtstaft, I believe Richard has changed the lyrics to make the song suitable for a wider audience than the believers audience. I assume you feel like that about the song because you had previous knowledge about where it came from. I quite like it as well.

 

[Mark-T]

^^ I really didn't know anything about this song, just read about the original version somewhere. Funny, I have been listening to the CTY album, thinking it is still amazing after 40 years!

 

[richard_sloat]

You just can't beat their take on Baby, it's you, Richard did the most amazing transformation to this song.

 

[Calvin R Murty]

I always thought the lines were:

But you can't cover up the past
just pretending will never last,

Meaning: you may have made mistakes in the past, but you have to deal with them and not pretend that they don't exist or have no consequence, because that will not last - your mistakes may come back and haunt you (or something to that effect).

 

[Mark-T]

Thanks, richard. I just heard it again yesterday, and I remain stunned by its beauty.

 

[richard_sloat]

I always thought the lines were:

But you can't cover up the past
just pretending will never last,

Meaning: you may have made mistakes in the past, but you have to deal with them and not pretend that they don't exist or have no consequence, because that will not last - your mistakes may come back and haunt you (or something to that effect).

Good one, Mr. Murty, you may be right. So now we have three options, "just pretend we were never lost", "just pretending we'll never last", "just pretending will never last", I can't pick up either one though I like the first one better. I'll have some more listenings of this song, as well as of the live BBC version.

EDIT: I listened carefully to these both versions and Karen is clearly NOT saying "WE WERE NEVER LOST" in the BBC live version, she is definitely saying "PRETENDING WE'LL/WILL NEVER LAST". I think it was the album version that confused anyone who may have written the lyrics "just pretend we were never lost" online because it's harder to tell from that version, but since there are no reasons to suppose the lyrics are different on those two versions, it's really "pretending we'll/will never last", whichever one it is.

 

[richard_sloat]

Oh... and how about the song And when I die, Mr. mstaft, how do you feel about it? I think it's an outstanding beautiful song and Karen's teenage singing is amazingly well done. How could they have decline her in the auctions she has applied for to that whatever group, according to Mr. Schmidt's book?? So how can Richard insist that Karen's head voice was not worth recording??

It would make a nice Christian music medley of songs, Love is surrender in its original lyrics, Get together (it fits) and And when I die. My aunt, who gets very touched by Karen's voice everytime she hears it, said once she would not be fast enough to attend a church where Karen and Richard were doing the music and she's no by-the-Bible Christian, IF she's a Christian at all, because she holds some VERY unusual beliefs. In fact... I can't really consider her a Christian woman... although she can't help but cry everytime I play the Carpenters' Ave Maria for her. She's a kind of a Marian instead of Christian, lol.

 

[Calvin R Murty]

Hi Mr Sloat,

I actually have a really 'ancient' Carpenters book of music for the piano, and I recall it had the 'unaltered' piano music and lyrics for Love Is Surrender (ie, the lyrics as written by R Carmichael). I am at the office now - will go home and check what the actual lyric is supposed to be

best,
Calvin

 

[Gordo]

Hi Mr Sloat,

I actually have a really 'ancient' Carpenters book of music for the piano, and I recall it had the 'unaltered' piano music and lyrics for Love Is Surrender (ie, the lyrics as written by R Carmichael). I am at the office now - will go home and check what the actual lyric is supposed to be

best,
Calvin

I have the original sheet-music book for the "Close To You" album. It contains the original Ralph Carmichael version of "Love Is Surrender" (copyright 1968 by Lexicon Music, Inc.).

According to this sheet music, the lyrics in question are as follows:

But you can't cover up the past / just pretending'll never last

One of the book's previous owners transposed the music to Carpenters' key and wrote in Carpenters' lyrics. Interestingly, this person's interpretation of Carpenters' lyrics is as follows:

But you can't cover up the past / just pretend it'll never last

***

Other interesting tidbits:

1) In the first verse, the original lyrics were, "You can talk all you want / make it sound nice and sweet".

2) The original lead-in to the chorus was, "Without Him love is not to be found".

3) The original chorus was, "For Love Is Surrender, Love Is Surrender to His will. Love Is Surrender to His will."

4) There is a middle verse:

Sing about love and the strength it can give
You can sing how your [sic] ready to face life and live,
But you know as the days go by / that no matter how hard you try

***

When I was a kid, my parents had a Ralph Carmichael record & songbook set. (The singers were nondescript.)

...I think I was exposed to Carpenters' version first -- I think I remember hearing the original Carmichael version and commenting that they must've borrowed the song from Carpenters!

 

[richard_sloat]

Thank you, Mr, Gordo, for reposting the tidbits I already had mentioned in my starting post, in case someone has forgotten about them, hehe.

And so we have two more versions for that line. The first one is essentially identical to Mr. Murty's try and I bet he's very much right. "Just pretend IT'LL NEVER LAST" is a new one however I doubt it is accurate. "But you can't cover up the past / just pretend it'll never last", the audience was suppose to PRETEND, imperative, "it" will never last, "it" what?? I'll stay with "pretending will never last" for now.

Mr. Murty, if your ancient book is not the same as Mr. Gordo's, it would be interesting to know some more, thank you.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I have the song cranked up on my computer right now and it is quite clearly "pretending will never last."

 

[richard_sloat]

That's it then. "Shout about love / and the wars will all end / you can shout we're all brothers / and even pretend / but you can't cover up the past / just pretending will never last". Just pretending we're all brothers will never last, sooner or later it will shatter off. In Mr. Carmichael's lyrics, it segues to "without Him you are not to be found", meaning that without Christ/the Christian God, it is pointless to pretend we're all brothers and shout about love. The "past" the song refers to would be Adam and Eve's banishing from the Garden of Eden and the original sin resulted from the fall of man, which would require from all humanity that we'd turn to God/Christ in search of salvation. The adaptation made by Richard erases this aspect of the song.

"Without love you are nothing at all" seems then like a line written by Richard alone, with no equivalent in Mr. Carmichael's lyrics, there doesn't seem to be any "without Him you are nothing at all" line, though it would fit perfectly as well.