Okay. Now, objectively, tell me what bias it was that kept Carole King from being inducted until two years ago.
Rock & Roll Hall of Fame: "Carpenters"
- Thread starter Chris May
- Start date
Okay. Now, objectively, tell me what bias it was that kept Carole King from being inducted until two years ago.
Amen.
Again, guys---it's just math. Six or seven inductees a year.
And there's no time limit. It's not like the Grammys, where your album gets one shot the year it's released and if it doesn't make it, it never will.
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
Poor Pat - no one takes him seriously or gives him any respect - he's like the Rodney Dangerfield of Pop music - no, I didn't send out any invitations for a serious debate on the relative merits of Pat Boone vs Carpenters - it was just a tame little jest highlighting the idea that just about anyone can make it into the RNRHOF - but if you really want a debate, lets get it on! You have the floor...
You highlight the idea that “just about anyone can make it into the RNRHOF” by citing someone who’s not?Poor Pat - no one takes him seriously or gives him any respect - he's like the Rodney Dangerfield of Pop music - no, I didn't send out any invitations for a serious debate on the relative merits of Pat Boone vs Carpenters - it was just a tame little jest highlighting the idea that just about anyone can make it into the RNRHOF - but if you really want a debate, lets get it on! You have the floor...
Portlander
Well-Known Member
I'm just hoping that if the Carpenters do eventually get inducted it's while Richard is still with us and in good health to enjoy the ceremony with his family. Artists normally perform at the event if they are physically able and it would be amazing to see Richard at the piano with Karen on the video screen similar to their Hollywood Bowl enshrinement.
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
That was the point - the jest - he's not there, but why not? Everybody and their brother can be. So, where is he? (my original question) - really bad when you have to explain them - sorry about the confusion, Michael.
Geographer
Well-Known Member
Personally, it doesn't matter, to me anyway, if ever Carpenters are in the RNRHOF or not. Really, what would change? We still have the music regardless. Also, it seems an out-of-touch pretentious bunch that seems to decide. Why is their opinion important? Might actually be a badge of honor and counter-culture to NOT be in the RNRHOF. But again, why does it matter either way? Carpenters music still sells with each new generation that discovers them. We still listen to their music throughout our lives whether they are in the RNRHOF or not.
That's pretty much my opinion - it really doesn't matter one way or the other. But at least by re-opening this old topic, we got some good information on the why's and why not's. Thanks as always to Michael for his indefatigable research abilities.
Vinylalbumcovers
Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
Much of what's been written in this thread (aside from @Michael Hagerty's research) is "I'm mad because Carpenters aren't in the RRHOF." As has been said, it really doesn't matter all that much. It doesn't diminish Karen's gifts in the slightest, neither should it affect how their fans feel about them. If you love them, you still can. They were never critical darlings so their absence from the RRHOF should surprise no one.
Ed
Ed
But there has been a number of "street cred" artists in recent years who've finally admitted that they loved Carpenters music - or at least Karen's voice or drum work - so it "feels right" that an entry might finally right a wrong that's been many years coming.
Again it doesn't matter to me really, it's just that it seems that they've been slighted way too long and it's about time to fix that. If it happens, fine. If it doesn't - well, it doesn't matter to me anyway.
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
I've wondered sometimes why some people felt compelled to hide their love of the Carpenter's music - to be in the closet about it. It wasn't just other artists, but a number of ordinary people. They listened secretly and didn't have the courage to admit it publicly. Fear of ridicule lead to fear of standing up for your preferences, your choices, your taste in music.
Even more difficult to comprehend is the emotional motives or faulty thinking of those few rare individuals who claim to not like Karen's voice - they do exist (although the numbers are very small) and I can't figure out if they are suffering from some cerebral shortcoming, or being dishonest, or just trying to "be different". That sound which eminates from her vocal apparatus is so stunningly warm and welcoming and compelling that it boggles the mind and defies all reason to realize that there are a few who don't absolutely love it with passion. What ARE they thinking?
Yes, the time is right to correct a wrong - a wrong that has been running since 1995 or so...the voting committee of "500 experts" need to finally come out of their closets...
But it does matter and if it happens, yes, fine & dandy - I'll drink a virtual toast with everyone. Any "bubbly" will do. If not, then the gross injustice continues and the committee remains in denial, in their stuffy closet, smoking whatever they're smoking...
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Without A Song
Well-Known Member
Until ABBA was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame I agreed with people who said the Carpenters didn't belong there. But if ABBA is in the hall, Richard and Karen deserve to be inducted as well. Same genre: soft rock-pop music.
Personally I think ABBA benefited from their career starting in the mid-70s, rather than the more turbulent late '60s-eatly '70s when the Carpenters made their debut. ABBA didn't receive anywhere near the negative press the Carpenters did. Plus their roots were in Europe, not America, which was less critical of soft rock music. And the Carpenters could be considered, along with Bread, the vanguard for the soft rock acts that followed them, including ABBA and the Captain and Tennille.
One question I'd like to hear hall reps answer: How is it that ABBA merits induction but not the Carpenters?
Personally I think ABBA benefited from their career starting in the mid-70s, rather than the more turbulent late '60s-eatly '70s when the Carpenters made their debut. ABBA didn't receive anywhere near the negative press the Carpenters did. Plus their roots were in Europe, not America, which was less critical of soft rock music. And the Carpenters could be considered, along with Bread, the vanguard for the soft rock acts that followed them, including ABBA and the Captain and Tennille.
One question I'd like to hear hall reps answer: How is it that ABBA merits induction but not the Carpenters?
Jack A.
Well-Known Member
Here’s my two cents on everything…
IMHO, the main reason for why the C’s haven’t been inducted when other soft-rock groups have still has to do with the image. A “goody-four-shoes” duo who lived a conservative, all-American lifestyle is just going to automatically be very low on the priority list of artists to get inducted - as sad and BS of a reason as that may be. And despite the increasingly positive reviews the C’s have garnered retrospectively in the decades following Karen’s death, I think the negative reviews they received back in the day have still had a lasting impact on how music critics may view them nowadays. Because of this, they are not really given enough of a chance when considering whether they are worthy to be inducted - they are judged too quickly.
Plus, I think some of it comes down to the musical tastes of the committee responsible for nominating new artists. Why did it take Chicago almost 50 years to get inducted when they were making hit after hit all through the 70’s and well into the 80’s, most of them considered “rock?” Maybe 70’s jazz-rock was just out of style and beyond the interests of the nominating committee. Similarly, 70’s orchestral progressive pop/soft rock doesn’t seem to be on all that many people’s radar anymore either.
But that all shouldn’t matter! As was mentioned previously, Richard essentially invented the power ballad. The C’s were arguably the first group to popularize the art of overdubbing vocals. Karen’s love of playing the drums inspired numerous females to take up an instrument that was normally occupied by males (Sheila E + other well-known drummers?). That sounds to me like a group that deserves to have a place in the musical legacy of the RRHOF, regardless of what kind of life they lived or what a few critics thought of their music.
Anyway, that was my rant. 🙂
IMHO, the main reason for why the C’s haven’t been inducted when other soft-rock groups have still has to do with the image. A “goody-four-shoes” duo who lived a conservative, all-American lifestyle is just going to automatically be very low on the priority list of artists to get inducted - as sad and BS of a reason as that may be. And despite the increasingly positive reviews the C’s have garnered retrospectively in the decades following Karen’s death, I think the negative reviews they received back in the day have still had a lasting impact on how music critics may view them nowadays. Because of this, they are not really given enough of a chance when considering whether they are worthy to be inducted - they are judged too quickly.
Plus, I think some of it comes down to the musical tastes of the committee responsible for nominating new artists. Why did it take Chicago almost 50 years to get inducted when they were making hit after hit all through the 70’s and well into the 80’s, most of them considered “rock?” Maybe 70’s jazz-rock was just out of style and beyond the interests of the nominating committee. Similarly, 70’s orchestral progressive pop/soft rock doesn’t seem to be on all that many people’s radar anymore either.
But that all shouldn’t matter! As was mentioned previously, Richard essentially invented the power ballad. The C’s were arguably the first group to popularize the art of overdubbing vocals. Karen’s love of playing the drums inspired numerous females to take up an instrument that was normally occupied by males (Sheila E + other well-known drummers?). That sounds to me like a group that deserves to have a place in the musical legacy of the RRHOF, regardless of what kind of life they lived or what a few critics thought of their music.
Anyway, that was my rant. 🙂
Nemily
"I'm goin' way down south to Baton Rouge, tonight"
Avant-garde, yes. Carpenters didn’t fit the mold, they broke it. And their success broadened the landscape for many others.
Richard and Karen experimented in music originated in the 60’s, but it was in 1970 when Carpenters music morphed into a new fulfilled sound, a genre that mainstream radio didn’t initially quite know how to group or label. They were at the forefront of a softer and more melodic sound, lush and layered. Not rock, but not 60’s.
It seems to me that whether you like Carpenters or not, their place in music history is at the very least, salient.
If the ABBA songbook hadn't been turned into a hit Broadway musical and film (MAMMA MIA!), I don't think they'd be there.
Look at the timeline: Broadway debut 2001 (it ran for 14 years and touring companies and anniversary productions keep it alive), the movie (made for $52 million and grossing nearly $700 million) premieres in 2008 and ABBA is inducted in 2010.
You've just argued against yourself.
Carpenters became eligible for induction into the Hall in 1994.
So did Chicago, who got in 22 years later--seven years ago. A band that dedicated its second album to "the Revolution, in all its forms", and had a mock phone booth on the stage for one tour called the "Snortitorium", where they could do lines of coke without actually having to leave the stage.
What they have in common:
Both released their first albums in 1969, and neither were inducted the year they became eligible.
Very few artists are.
There's a very strong tendency to assume Carpenters aren't in because of their image. No one in a position to know or vote has ever said that on the record, and there is no evidence to support it.
Again---hundreds of acts, six or seven inductees a year, and until recently, a founding member who has now outed himself as having a low opinion of female artists.
It's math.
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Now, of course, if anyone sends the nominating committee copies of this, all bets are off:
crescentnoon
Well-Known Member
The complete lack of a nomination is where the insult comes in, can't just be a math thing at that point.
Sure it can. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds of acts who are eligible but haven’t been nominated yet.
Again—-14 nominees a year, 7 inductees.
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crescentnoon
Well-Known Member
Chic has been nominated 11 times. Sheryl Crow got in on her first nomination. The White Stripes have already been nominated. 2023 alone saw 14 nominees. Something just doesn't add up.
Jack A.
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it seems like the standards for getting inducted have gone down by a lot, considering some of the artists who have been nominated in recent years. It doesn't seem like it's as big of an honor as it used to be.
To be honest, just "Close To You" to me would be a reason for the C's to be at least nominated. It's arguably one of the most recognizable songs of the 20th century (many people say they don't know who the Carpenters are, but they will recognize CTY when they hear it), and it was noted for showcasing Richard's genius arranging skills as well as being perfect for Karen's beautiful voice. Then the fact that they continued that formula for two more number ones plus a multitude of other Top 40 hits proves that the two of them really had something special about them.
To be honest, just "Close To You" to me would be a reason for the C's to be at least nominated. It's arguably one of the most recognizable songs of the 20th century (many people say they don't know who the Carpenters are, but they will recognize CTY when they hear it), and it was noted for showcasing Richard's genius arranging skills as well as being perfect for Karen's beautiful voice. Then the fact that they continued that formula for two more number ones plus a multitude of other Top 40 hits proves that the two of them really had something special about them.
LyndaK
Well-Known Member
I always wonder why they haven't already been inducted, seriously.
...and ignoring some fundamental facts now in evidence.
Murray
Well-Known Member
But only one of them was the top-selling American act of the 1970s!
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