Solo Album and Single Success

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The overall quality of the record is also something very noticeable, this album doesn´t only sound louder, but brighter and more "alive".

A couple of reasons for that. Billy Joel’s band weren’t old school studio musicians, they were looser and more maverick in their playing style, which I guess complemented Phil’s style of producing. Also, the tracks are mixed almost totally dry (including Karen’s vocals). In other words, they aren’t drenched in reverb or overproduced with too many strings. During the mixing stage an audio engineer can “sweeten” the sound, making adjustments at the mixing desk to create a bigger, fuller sound and giving the finished tracks a more professional polish. Karen’s album doesn’t have that. That’s why it sounds more “raw”.
 
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August 1980
Single #2: My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
B-side: Steel Een Luv Weeth Yoo
Comment: Get 'em dancin'!

All the singles I’ve seen from artists similar to Carpenters in that era wouldn’t have paired those two together. The formula is almost always uptempo b/w ballad or vice versa.
 
Barbara Dickson nails ‘It’s Really You’ with what I think might be a live vocal, around the same time Karen Carpenter recorded the song for her solo album. I feel this song was probably the best composition recorded for Karen’s solo project and could have turned out quite well, if she’d completed her recording.

Barbara Dickson reaches the low notes at the beginning of the first verse with ease and hits the highest notes in the chorus right at the end, after the key change, strongly and with no trouble. Seems she can sing as low as what Karen could. She has quite a range, actually.

 
I did some extra reading about 'It's Really You', from Karen Carpenter's solo sessions.

The song was written by Alan Tarney, Trevor Spencer and Tom Snow.

It had appeared on The Tarney-Spencer Band's A&M album, 'Three's A Crowd', recorded in London and Los Angeles in 1977.

It also appeared on Barbara Dickson's 1980 album, 'The Barbara Dickson Album', and was released as a single from that set.

Some of the songs that Alan Tarney wrote or co-wrote and produced that I heard a lot on the radio in my youth, or owned, and that were hits in various parts of the world, included 'We Don't Talk Anymore', 'Dreaming', 'A Little In Love', 'Wired for Sound' and 'Some People', all by Cliff Richard, 'Orchard Road' 'Once In a While' and 'Living In a Fantasy', by Leo Sayer, and 'January, February', by Barbara Dickson. He also produced 'Take On Me' and a lot of the other singles by A-Ha, as well as producing for The Hollies and a UK band that I like, Squeeze.

Alan Tarney and Trevor Spencer had a few connections with Karen Carpenter, some of them vague and coincidental, apart from having co-written one of the songs that she recorded. The other strongest connection was probably that they recorded for the same record company at the time she was recording her solo album. (They had a 1979 album on A&M, 'Run For Your Life'). Trevor Spencer also played drums on some early Olivia Newton-John tracks and on some recordings by John Farrar, ONJ's producer.

Alan Tarney wrote or co-wrote a few album tracks for Olivia NJ, over the years.

Tom Snow has been connected with many hits and artists over the years, including ONJ, and so has Trevor Spencer. Trevor Spencer is said to be associated with sales of 20 million records, as writer, performer or producer.

Alan Tarney and Trevor Spencer both grew up in Adelaide, South Australia.
 
Very interesting - i am a huge fan of Barbara Dickson and know the guy who runs her website.
He was doing an album of Dickson 'covers' and I sent him Karen's version of ' It's really you'.

I also have family in Adelaide so for me quite a connection - I also love that 80's pop sound that Alan created for Cliff and Barbara Dickson amongst others you mentioned.

Thank you for this interesting post
 
Very interesting - i am a huge fan of Barbara Dickson and know the guy who runs her website.
He was doing an album of Dickson 'covers' and I sent him Karen's version of ' It's really you'.

I also have family in Adelaide so for me quite a connection - I also love that 80's pop sound that Alan created for Cliff and Barbara Dickson amongst others you mentioned.

Thank you for this interesting post

Thank you for your response, LondonRobert!

Yes, there's something uplifting about the sound that Alan Tarney created. One album that he produced, which I had when it first came out in my teens and still listen to from time to time, is Leo Sayer's 'Living In a Fantasy'. Despite including a lot of songs about heartbreak and separation, it somehow has a very 'happy' vibe.

I bought Barbara Dickson's 'Another Suitcase in Another Hall' and 'I Know Him So Well' in the mid 80s and used to play them a lot. In the last ten years or so, I've taken to collecting her albums and have been enjoying them. I have five or six now, including an early one featuring folk songs and her tribute to Gerry Rafferty.

I'm drawn to listening to 'January, February', with that distinctive Alan Tarney sound, every now and then and her version of 'It's Really You' has really grown on me. I like it a lot.
 
Barbara Dickson nails ‘It’s Really You’ with what I think might be a live vocal, around the same time Karen Carpenter recorded the song for her solo album. I feel this song was probably the best composition recorded for Karen’s solo project and could have turned out quite well, if she’d completed her recording.

Barbara Dickson reaches the low notes at the beginning of the first verse with ease and hits the highest notes in the chorus right at the end, after the key change, strongly and with no trouble. Seems she can sing as low as what Karen could. She has quite a range, actually.


After hearing this makes me wonder why Phil Ramone had Karen's range too high on this track. It really sounds so much better with this slightly slower tempo where you can hear her interpreting the lyrics, while Karen sounds likes she's rushing through the song.

The song really works better in her lower register, "for all the things we ever wanted to be...the time is right and your here tonight so hold my hand and know that you'll understand" Barbara's version is spot on with this slower tempo and lower vocals while Karen's feels like she's reaching too high...unnecessarily.

The sad part is that Karen would have nailed this in her lower register and this slower tempo. It's very interesting that she recorded this in 1980. I wonder if Karen heard Barbara's version. Did anyone notice how her outfit looked similar to Karen's on the 1980 medley from MMM with the flower/or accessory on her side waist.

Thanks for posting!!
 
After hearing this makes me wonder why Phil Ramone had Karen's range too high on this track. It really sounds so much better with this slightly slower tempo where you can hear her interpreting the lyrics, while Karen sounds likes she's rushing through the song.

The song really works better in her lower register, "for all the things we ever wanted to be...the time is right and your here tonight so hold my hand and know that you'll understand" Barbara's version is spot on with this slower tempo and lower vocals while Karen's feels like she's reaching too high...unnecessarily.

The sad part is that Karen would have nailed this in her lower register and this slower tempo. It's very interesting that she recorded this in 1980. I wonder if Karen heard Barbara's version. Did anyone notice how her outfit looked similar to Karen's on the 1980 medley from MMM with the flower/or accessory on her side waist.

Thanks for posting!!
You're right, Rick. Barbara Dickson's version actually seems to be set at a faster tempo than Karen's because it has the drum keeping the beat, but Karen's is actually at the faster tempo. Also, Karen's version is in just a slightly higher key than Barbara's - if the versions on Youtube are set at the correct speed.

Having said that, Karen's version seems to be set about as low as her range would manage. Her lowest note is often said to be the 'E' below 'Middle C', but on 'It's Really You', she begins lower than that - on the 'E Flat' below 'Middle C', (I think).

Anyway, whatever the case, I think that not completing the recording with a polished lead vocal was a lost opportunity. But, given the circumstances at the time, I shouldn't get too selfish in what I wish Karen had done at the time!
 
After hearing this makes me wonder why Phil Ramone had Karen's range too high on this track. It really sounds so much better with this slightly slower tempo where you can hear her interpreting the lyrics, while Karen sounds likes she's rushing through the song.

The song really works better in her lower register, "for all the things we ever wanted to be...the time is right and your here tonight so hold my hand and know that you'll understand" Barbara's version is spot on with this slower tempo and lower vocals while Karen's feels like she's reaching too high...unnecessarily.

The sad part is that Karen would have nailed this in her lower register and this slower tempo. It's very interesting that she recorded this in 1980. I wonder if Karen heard Barbara's version. Did anyone notice how her outfit looked similar to Karen's on the 1980 medley from MMM with the flower/or accessory on her side waist.

Thanks for posting!!

I may have stated this elsewhere, either in this thread or another - if so, apologies for the repeat.

I suspect that one of the reasons a fair amount of Karen's solo album efforts recorded in her higher register was a component of the "not Carpenters" mentality that existed when she was working on her solo album. The "money is in the basement" was something they were trying to avoid - and explore more of Karen's vocal range. Purely a guess; but it makes sense to me given everything I've seen/heard/read.

This could also explain, to some extent, why the playback at A&M was, at best, received somewhat "tepidly" (being diplomatic with that phraseology).
 
Do you think the remix being better has something to do with the fact they were done almost 10 years later KC solo was recorded? If Richard had picked the solo album and worked on it right in 1980-81, before MIA, wouldn't we have ended with a lot of the OK Chorale in and a lot of a more syrupy sound?
 
Having said that, Karen's version seems to be set about as low as her range would manage. Her lowest note is often said to be the 'E' below 'Middle C', but on 'It's Really You', she begins lower than that - on the 'E Flat' below 'Middle C', (I think).
You're close - It's actually the D below Middle C ( a half step below Eb) - she sings this at two places in "Where Do I Go From Here", once each in the 2 verses - her longest and most gorgeous demonstration of sustained "cruising in the basement" in any song - one of their most under-appreciated songs and one of her most beautiful vocal performances.
 
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(I am pulling these recent posts from the "Voice of the Heart" album thread, as I feel my response is better suited to this thread.)

The only song she really recorded from scratch in 1980 was ‘Lovelines’.

Considering Temperton had massive success with "Rock With You" Nov/Dec '79 by which point her solo sessions in New York were presumably over, you get the feeling the powers at A&M got him back in Jan '80 with hopes of scoring a hit with Lovelines which was recorded in LA.

Reading between the lines I think that’s pretty much what happened. They didn’t feel the album had a strong enough song to open it (which was an ominous omen in itself) and that’s how ‘Lovelines’ came to be.

It may also explain the sky-high cost of the album coz he must've cost a fortune to get back on board.


Lovelines is a nice vocal and rhythm piece, so the powers that be were on to something. It feels like an opening track, and the edited version Richard did for the "Lovelines" album could of been a single. I always felt that (the outtake) "Love Makin' Love to You" would of made a great second track on the solo album, and help build the momentum of side one, replacing "All Because Of You." Not that I hate that song either, just don't think it fits where it was placed on the album (CD).

Do we know what (opening) track was considered originally when playback was done for the West Coast listening? Maybe it was Love Makin' Love To You? Since that song seems absolutely completed and then shelved. I don't think it would of been the best opening (track) to introduce the world to Karen as a solo artist! But as the second track? It's sad it was finished and not used on the album.

As far as the expense, yeah, they recorded or partially recorded at least 20 tracks, plus the LA session for the track "Lovelines" But historically, wasn't it worth it? It shows another aspect of her range as an artist, and it's part of the legacy of the Carpenters, as well as Richard's solo work.
 
Do we know what (opening) track was considered originally when playback was done for the West Coast listening?

I’m guessing here, but before ‘Lovelines’ came along they probably had settled on the ten other tracks they already had, which was pretty standard for LPs at the time. The other material, for the most part, hadn’t even passed the rough demo stage so was never even considered for inclusion.

The issue with that batch of ten tracks is I don’t think any of them had the right vibe for an opening number, or was strong enough to create the right impact for Karen’s first ever solo venture. Remember, this was being hyped up at the label as a potential summer blockbuster album. They probably wanted it to open with a bang or something with the “wow” factor. There must have been a series of partial playbacks at least with A&M management before the final official one, for them to form the view that it still didn’t have a strong enough opener. It’s ironic that Karen and Phil went away and came up with something that I feel was good enough, had the right vibe and set the scene nicely - and the album was still rejected outright.
 
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Don’t Try To Win Me Back was also completed. However, I don’t think the title would’ve been good as first track of a new solo album. Maybe they could’ve retitled it.
 
(I thought this might be an interesting listen for some of the Forum gang, if you haven't heard this previously.)




From YouTuber Phil F:
"One of my pandemic hobbies is audio editing and DJ software. I discovered Algoriddim's Neural Mix Pro (macOS) which lets you separate components of a track (ie, vocal, instruments, and drums.) I felt up to the challenge to remix this song. Neural Mix Pro is a cool product but it isn't perfect resulting in some parts of the instrumentals sounding muddled. I added a drum beat loop and increased BPM from 117 to 123. I feel good about my edits. I hope you do, too."
 
(I thought this might be an interesting listen for some of the Forum gang, if you haven't heard this previously.)




From YouTuber Phil F:
"One of my pandemic hobbies is audio editing and DJ software. I discovered Algoriddim's Neural Mix Pro (macOS) which lets you separate components of a track (ie, vocal, instruments, and drums.) I felt up to the challenge to remix this song. Neural Mix Pro is a cool product but it isn't perfect resulting in some parts of the instrumentals sounding muddled. I added a drum beat loop and increased BPM from 117 to 123. I feel good about my edits. I hope you do, too."


Listening to this remix reminded me of a thought I've had in the past but don't believe I've expressed - although others may have expressed similar musings.

Disco music was nearing it's end in 1979, and the anti-disco backlash had been in full swing for some time. There were still disco songs and some big disco hits, even a couple of songs into the very early '80's, but the writing was on the wall for disco.

Had Karen's album been released, and she had a sizeable "disco hit" (and ONLY a disco-oriented hit), it would likely have led to an even more ferocious assault by critics, on Karen directly, and indirectly pushed Karen (and the Carpenters) further outside the musical scene that would become the 80's. Of course this point would become irrelevant given Karen's passing, so this is from a 'what-if' perspective.

There were other female vocalists who had disco hits and survived well into the 80's (or even beyond), but most if not all of them had already established themselves long before the disco phenomenon (Streisand, Diana Ross, et al). This was Karen's first solo effort.

Summarizing; would a big disco hit from Karen's solo album have had an adverse affect on her chance of having further solo success in the 80's (assuming she chose a solo path in some form)?
 
Wow, that’s exactly what Larry Flick from Billboard Magazine begged for someone to do when the Lovelines album was released. That could have been a club hit for sure. Probably some airplay as well. A bit too long, but back then would’ve been okay. John, please ask him to do Dancing In The Street and Lovelines too. It would be fun to hear them remixed, and extended. Thank you for sharing.
 
Listening to this remix reminded me of a thought I've had in the past but don't believe I've expressed - although others may have expressed similar musings.

Disco music was nearing it's end in 1979, and the anti-disco backlash had been in full swing for some time. There were still disco songs and some big disco hits, even a couple of songs into the very early '80's, but the writing was on the wall for disco.

Had Karen's album been released, and she had a sizeable "disco hit" (and ONLY a disco-oriented hit), it would likely have led to an even more ferocious assault by critics, on Karen directly, and indirectly pushed Karen (and the Carpenters) further outside the musical scene that would become the 80's. Of course this point would become irrelevant given Karen's passing, so this is from a 'what-if' perspective.

There were other female vocalists who had disco hits and survived well into the 80's (or even beyond), but most if not all of them had already established themselves long before the disco phenomenon (Streisand, Diana Ross, et al). This was Karen's first solo effort.

Summarizing; would a big disco hit from Karen's solo album have had an adverse affect on her chance of having further solo success in the 80's (assuming she chose a solo path in some form)?

Maybe David, (this also being from a what-if perspective) Karen's vocals as "lead sister" of the Carpenters was pretty established in the 1970's. Her voice is the main reason I could listen to an extended (mock-up) club mix like this. Along with real singers like Donna Summer, Streisand etc. who survived the 80's and beyond. I don't think this would be my 1st choice for a debut single, it would be "If I Have You." The single mix of MBKCMM could of been the B-side and maybe some dance stations might of played that on the radio too! But I do believe had the solo album been released in 1980, a promo only Extended Mix could of been issued prior to the album's release for Dance/Disco play. Her vocals really make it come alive!

I don't think Karen would of wanted to be remembered for her one and only "disco" hit that was a fluke. She was a gifted vocalist suitable for all kinds of contemporary pop music, country or standards. But you were right, disco was a trend and it was ending and evolving into the next big thing, although the early 80's was off to a slow start in finding out exactly "what" that was. Wasn't AC really big in the early 80's? Karen's voice though, could of been a bigger part of that. Or perhaps not.
 
Maybe David, (this also being from a what-if perspective) Karen's vocals as "lead sister" of the Carpenters was pretty established in the 1970's. Her voice is the main reason I could listen to an extended (mock-up) club mix like this. Along with real singers like Donna Summer, Streisand etc. who survived the 80's and beyond. I don't think this would be my 1st choice for a debut single, it would be "If I Have You." The single mix of MBKCMM could of been the B-side and maybe some dance stations might of played that on the radio too! But I do believe had the solo album been released in 1980, a promo only Extended Mix could of been issued prior to the album's release for Dance/Disco play. Her vocals really make it come alive!

I don't think Karen would of wanted to be remembered for her one and only "disco" hit that was a fluke. She was a gifted vocalist suitable for all kinds of contemporary pop music, country or standards. But you were right, disco was a trend and it was ending and evolving into the next big thing, although the early 80's was off to a slow start in finding out exactly "what" that was. Wasn't AC really big in the early 80's? Karen's voice though, could of been a bigger part of that. Or perhaps not.

Good points. I certainly agree that Karen's voice was established and well-recognized (and adored, for the most part). I think there's a question of whether her first SOLO effort would have been viewed in the same light as many other females vocalists who went solo after being well-known as part of a band or group - say, a Diana Ross post-Supremes, or Marilyn McCoo post 5th Dimension - because Karen's voice was so intimately linked to the unique Carpenters "sound."

Ultimately, you've changed my mind on this. I agree that had Karen lived and was healthy, her options - from musical genre to musicals, big duets, acting, etc. - would have been there for her, whether she had a big "one-off" disco hit or not. She was simply too talented not to have had some form of success in the 80's, had she pursued it - with and/or without "Carpenters".
 
Good points. I certainly agree that Karen's voice was established and well-recognized (and adored, for the most part). I think there's a question of whether her first SOLO effort would have been viewed in the same light as many other females vocalists who went solo after being well-known as part of a band or group - say, a Diana Ross post-Supremes, or Marilyn McCoo post 5th Dimension - because Karen's voice was so intimately linked to the unique Carpenters "sound."

Ultimately, you've changed my mind on this. I agree that had Karen lived and was healthy, her options - from musical genre to musicals, big duets, acting, etc. - would have been there for her, whether she had a big "one-off" disco hit or not. She was simply too talented not to have had some form of success in the 80's, had she pursued it - with and/or without "Carpenters".

We'd do well to remember that when Karen was recording her solo album, Carpenters meant nearly nothing. "Passage" didn't do much and no one was really checking for Carpenters' music. I'm not certain that her solo album would have gotten the attention many here think it would have. I also think this song in particular would have gotten many a "side eye". Like..."Close to You girl is now doing disco...what??" and it probably would have elicited quite a bit of laugher - no matter how good she sounds on it (and she does sound excellent, of course).

In short, the record would have to have been phenomenal to not only get the public's attention but to make people take Karen seriously. Carpenters had long since been written off as square and "Passage" did nothing to change that. Karen's solo record was facing quite the uphill battle and while I've always liked it, it probably wouldn't have done much to turn the tide. I'm grateful that it came out so we could hear it but in terms of chart action, it likely would have done very little. I also doubt a "dance mix" of "My Body..." would have garnered much interest unless they did the "Donny Osmond/Soldier of Love" trick where they put the tune out without telling anyone who the artist was at first. This would very much have been very much the same situation and Karen's solo record would have needed similar creative marketing to get it over.

Ed
 
We'd do well to remember that when Karen was recording her solo album, Carpenters meant nearly nothing. "Passage" didn't do much and no one was really checking for Carpenters' music. I'm not certain that her solo album would have gotten the attention many here think it would have. I also think this song in particular would have gotten many a "side eye". Like..."Close to You girl is now doing disco...what??" and it probably would have elicited quite a bit of laugher - no matter how good she sounds on it (and she does sound excellent, of course).

In short, the record would have to have been phenomenal to not only get the public's attention but to make people take Karen seriously. Carpenters had long since been written off as square and "Passage" did nothing to change that. Karen's solo record was facing quite the uphill battle and while I've always liked it, it probably wouldn't have done much to turn the tide. I'm grateful that it came out so we could hear it but in terms of chart action, it likely would have done very little. I also doubt a "dance mix" of "My Body..." would have garnered much interest unless they did the "Donny Osmond/Soldier of Love" trick where they put the tune out without telling anyone who the artist was at first. This would very much have been very much the same situation and Karen's solo record would have needed similar creative marketing to get it over.

Ed

My original premise/question was based on the "what-if" Karen found lightning in a bottle with a disco-song from her album, and how that may have impacted her solo career, since disco was winding down and was reviled by many. Your "side-eye" is exactly what I was referring to, and definitely would have happened.

But as @John Adam points out, and I agree - even if that had happened (a disco hit), she was simply too talented not to have had some form of 80's career success, in one form or another.

Sadly, of course, we'll never know.
 
My original premise/question was based on the "what-if" Karen found lightning in a bottle with a disco-song from her album, and how that may have impacted her solo career, since disco was winding down and was reviled by many. Your "side-eye" is exactly what I was referring to, and definitely would have happened.

But as @John Adam points out, and I agree - even if that had happened (a disco hit), she was simply too talented not to have had some form of 80's career success, in one form or another.

Sadly, of course, we'll never know.

See, that's what I'm not so sure of. Again, Carpenters meant almost nothing to the marketplace by 1977. I'm not sure she would have found success anymore than Carpenters had. The best they managed to do was #16 for "Touch Me" a year later. Not awful but not great either with a comeback album after a three-year absence. While Karen was a known entity in Carpenters, breaking her as a solo artist is a whole other thing. She would have to have been promoted in a whole new way to get her over. She was in a duo that played it incredibly safe the entire time and "Karen Carpenter" isn't a safe record - especially those Javors tunes. It would have required quite the interesting marketing campaign to make it work if it could work at all. Her voice wouldn't have been enough to do it; it certainly hadn't been from 1976 on, really.

Ed
 
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