Solo Album and Single Success

[tomswift2002]

It was a first attempt at a solo album for Karen. There might of been a multitude of styles, compare that to the Carpenters album "Passage." I'm sure she was also anxious to branch out stylistically. I see where you are trying to go with the upbeat style pop album, but just like on a country album, there is room for ballads alongside up-tempo material. It might just be the placement of that ballad material, so the mood doesn't change so drastically as to lessen the listening experience.

She may’ve been trying to branch out stylistically, but those slower songs should’ve been reserved for B-side 45 release. The tracks are simply out of place and Ramone should’ve exercised more authority as producer. It may’ve been alright to have had 1 slow song on the album, but to have 4 was ridiculous. Also there was already “Guess I Just Lost My Head” which is a slow song, not as slow as Try, MBIYFT, ABOY & Still Crazy. Or those tracks could’ve been released as a seperate Extended Play to test the waters.

 

[newvillefan]

Karen and Phil were trying too many styles. In a way, the tempo comes across as that of a greatest hits album’s tempo, rather than a cohesive studio album’s tempo. For Karen’s solo debut, they should’ve stuck to one type of music for the album. If it was an uptempo pop, then uptempo pop; if it was country then country.

It may’ve been alright to have had 1 slow song on the album, but to have 4 was ridiculous.

The album I always equate Karen’s to, in terms of approximate timing of its recording, style and artist is Olivia’s Totally Hot. Although Karen and Olivia were on different trajectories by the late 70s, that album was a similar attempt to move Olivia forwards into the disco era whilst holding on to her country audiences of the early 70s. The album is just as eclectic as Karen’s, veering from the disco sound of the opening track Please Don’t Keep Me Waiting, to the light rock style of Gimme Some Lovin’ and straightforward pop on A Little More Love, sprinkled with no less than four country-style ballads. It works brilliantly and creates that ebb and flow I was thinking about in my earlier post. Karen’s album is no different in this respect, although I agree with many that some of the material needed to be stronger. But the overall concept and format is standard for artists of her genre. Very few pop albums contains ten uptempo pop songs.

 

[Rumbahbah]

She may’ve been trying to branch out stylistically, but those slower songs should’ve been reserved for B-side 45 release. The tracks are simply out of place and Ramone should’ve exercised more authority as producer. It may’ve been alright to have had 1 slow song on the album, but to have 4 was ridiculous. Also there was already “Guess I Just Lost My Head” which is a slow song, not as slow as Try, MBIYFT, ABOY & Still Crazy. Or those tracks could’ve been released as a seperate Extended Play to test the waters.

Why would 'slower' songs be a problem on the album? She wasn't recording a 'disco' album, so it didn't have to be all uptempo.

In any case, there is only one out-and-out ballad ('Make Believe It's Your First Time') on the whole album. 'All Because of You' and 'Still Crazy After All These Years' were slower songs, but both in a different style from each other and from 'Make Believe...'. 'If We Try' and 'Guess I Just Lost My Head' are mid-tempo tracks, not ballads. There was plenty of variety on there in terms of tracks that weren't necessarily uptempo.

It's also worth bearing in mind how 'ballad'-heavy some Carpenters albums were - they accounted for all but three tracks on Horizon, for instance.

 

[tomswift2002]

Why would 'slower' songs be a problem on the album? She wasn't recording a 'disco' album, so it didn't have to be all uptempo.

In any case, there is only one out-and-out ballad ('Make Believe It's Your First Time') on the whole album. 'All Because of You' and 'Still Crazy After All These Years' were slower songs, but both in a different style from each other and from 'Make Believe...'. 'If We Try' and 'Guess I Just Lost My Head' are mid-tempo tracks, not ballads. There was plenty of variety on there in terms of tracks that weren't necessarily uptempo.

It's also worth bearing in mind how 'ballad'-heavy some Carpenters albums were - they accounted for all but three tracks on Horizon, for instance.

Sorry but “If We Try”, “All Because of You” & “Still Crazy” are slow ballads, while “Make Believe” is a slow waltz. And on this album, all 4 cause the album to be herky jerky, like someone slamming on the brakes and sending all the occupants through the front windshield when each song comes on. And Karen was trying to distance herself from the Carpenters formula, and Ramone should’ve said to leave those 4 off and replaced them with 4 others.

 

[Rumbahbah]

Sorry but “If We Try”, “All Because of You” & “Still Crazy” are slow ballads, while “Make Believe” is a slow waltz. And on this album, all 4 cause the album to be herky jerky, like someone slamming on the brakes and sending all the occupants through the front windshield when each song comes on. And Karen was trying to distance herself from the Carpenters formula, and Ramone should’ve said to leave those 4 off and replaced them with 4 others.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of what counts as a 'slow ballad' - to my ears, none of the three tracks you mention (and especially 'If We Try') would fall into that category.

I don't agree either about them affecting the pacing of the album. Most albums by popular artists at the time (and especially by female singers) would have a mix of ballads, uptempos and mid-tempos unless there was a particular 'theme' behind the album that meant all the tracks followed a more specific style/tempo. Karen's album was very much in line with the majority approach of her contemporaries here rather than being some form of exception.

As for 'distancing herself from the Carpenters formula', I don't understand what you're getting at here. The only one of the four 'slower' songs that even sounds vaguely like a song the Carpenters would have recorded is 'Make Believe It's Your First Time' - the other three are very different in style from the Carpenters output, particularly that released both directly before and after the solo album was recorded.

Perhaps it would have been better if the Carpenters had recorded songs in this style, but they didn't. Even when they did their own version of 'Make Believe It's Your First Time', it sounded almost nothing like the solo version! The crossover between the solo album and their work as a duo was essentially non-existent, other than Karen featuring as the singer on both.

 

[John Adam]

Sorry but “If We Try”, “All Because of You” & “Still Crazy” are slow ballads, while “Make Believe” is a slow waltz.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of what counts as a 'slow ballad' - to my ears, none of the three tracks you mention (and especially 'If We Try') would fall into that category.

To my understanding If We Try and Still Crazy come across as mid-tempo pop/ballads. Make Believe is unquestionably a beautiful, slow ballad. I've never been sure exactly what All Because Of You, is? Good, bad, it does get your attention! But I am glad these recordings were made, even if they were not made under the best circumstances.

Again, it's amazing how we hear, and have different, unique listening experiences as human beings. It makes for interesting discussion. I don't claim to be "right." This is just my own interpretation with this particular terminology.

 

[John Adam]

I wanted to share this thought too.

Although there is massive controversy over Karen having recorded a solo album for personal and professional reasons. Ultimately, it was her decision. If she were alive today would she regret a decision she made when she was in her 20's? Or was it just something she wanted to experience?

From everything I've read in my research concerning recording the solo album sessions, it seems Karen really enjoyed the experience, and she was for the most part happy with the outcome. After the decision not to release it, she had no idea "if or when" the public would ever hear her solo effort. She died NOT regretting this experience, and she dedicated it to her brother with all her love. Sounds like it was a great experience! I don't want to take any of that positive energy away. It was another slice of Karen Carpenter. It is part of her multi-faceted legacy.

It's a personal choice to embrace or dismiss it. I chose to embrace it along with the Carpenters legacy. I have room for both.

 

[Mark-T]

I wish the darned thing would have just been released in 1980. It would have been interesting to see the promo materials, what was chosen for artwork, final tracks, and singles- and then to see the public's response. Our speculation would have had some answers.

 

[newvillefan]

I wish the darned thing would have just been released in 1980. It would have been interesting to see the promo materials, what was chosen for artwork, final tracks, and singles- and then to see the public's response.

I bet the artwork for the singles would have been stunning given the gorgeous images from the photo shoot that have been released since then.

And so what if the response to it had been tepid, as John Bettis likes to point out that it would have been. It certainly wouldn’t have been any less so than Passage and the fact this was Karen on her own being produced by Phil Ramone would have been enough to make a lot of people at least curious.

Richard has always maintained its cancellation was nothing to do with him, but I have often wondered whether, deep down, he feels he may just have dodged a bullet back then.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I bet the artwork for the singles would have been stunning given the gorgeous images from the photo shoot that have been released since then.

And so what if the response to it had been tepid, as John Bettis likes to point out that it would have been. It certainly wouldn’t have been any less so than Passage and the fact this was Karen on her own being produced by Phil Ramone would have been enough to make a lot of people at least curious.

Richard has always maintained its cancellation was nothing to do with him, but I have often wondered whether, deep down, he feels he may just have dodged a bullet back then.

Hard to say really. One one hand, Richard's success would never have been without Karen. He's a very good musician/arranger but he'd can't sing lead so without Karen, he'd never have been an artist. He'd have to have operated behind the scenes. Further, his preferred sound never would have gotten over without Karen. He seemed to largely prefer the "elevator" approach and it only worked for as long as it did because his sister just happens to be the single greatest Pop singer the world has ever known. She was every bit of their "calling card" and there's no way he doesn't know that.

On the other hand, Carpenters' were "ice cold" commercially at that point. Their approach was no longer remotely interesting to most so a Karen solo record likely wouldn't have mattered much - no matter who produced it. They were thought of as hopelessly square at that point and Karen's record likely would have done nothing to change that. It's really not that shocking a record. There are some mildly intimate things there but nothing overtly sexual. Most of all, music had changed and there was simply no place for them anymore, really. While I'm glad we got her solo record, I'm not sure it would have meant much anyway, honestly. It likely wouldn't have done anything and she'd have gone back to working with Richard anyway.

Thought that doesn't fit anywhere: "Love Makin' Love to You" is one I just don't buy coming from Karen. Yes, it absolutely does make a really good-sounding record (thank you, Phil Ramone and Rod Temperton) but Karen just wasn't that kind of lady. She tried to sound intimate but it felt like acting to me. The lyric is way over the line for her and it would have been met with chuckles had it made the track listing and had the album actually come out in 1980. Likely, Phil and Karen knew that it just wasn't believable and left it off the record. Smart move, IMHO.

Ed

 

[David A]

This thread is always a fascinating read for me. The opinions - ranging from song choices, released/not released, this one good, this one bad, outtakes, etc., in many ways reflect the nature of the album itself.

All over the map.

Her solo album was, in my view, a rudderless effort. While Karen (supposedly) had control over which songs to record and/or include, she was inexperienced (and I'd imagine, a bit insecure) and I'm confident she relied on the people around her - seasoned, veteran musicians and song-writers, Ramone, etc. - to help guide her.

No one - including Ramone - seemed to know what to do with her. "Not Carpenters" was the right idea, but it wasn't a plan. Where was the plan?

There are several songs I really like and several I don't, most of them I feel tepid about. I have said in the past here, and reiterate again; I think it should have been released. But IMO it could have, and should have, been so much more than it was.

 

[John Adam]

"Love Makin' Love to You" is one I just don't buy coming from Karen. Yes, it absolutely does make a really good-sounding record (thank you, Phil Ramone and Rod Temperton) but Karen just wasn't that kind of lady. She tried to sound intimate but it felt like acting to me. The lyric is way over the line for her and it would have been met with chuckles had it made the track listing and had the album actually come out in 1980. Likely, Phil and Karen knew that it just wasn't believable and left it off the record.

This thread is always a fascinating read for me. The opinions - ranging from song choices, released/not released, this one good, this one bad, outtakes, etc., in many ways reflect the nature of the album itself.

Remember this is the woman who says, "augh, I have to get into a serious mood here."
Isn't singing in a way playing a role, acting as they are the person depicted in the lyrics. Or being able to relate to another's experiences which the singer might have observed and channeling that emotion? I can understand a singer just not relating to a song's vibe. Are you saying that Karen's acting in this singing role just didn't hit the mark?

What if this song had been chosen to be in the "Lovelines" album for example, as another Karen track. Wouldn't it have fit right alongside "Remember When Lovin' Took All Night?" Another good sounding record.........

 

[newvillefan]

What if this song had been chosen to be in the "Lovelines" album for example, as another Karen track. Wouldn't it have fit right alongside "Remember When Lovin' Took All Night?" Another good sounding record.........

I’ve never even considered that before but you’re absolutely right - what a great thought. In 1980 it might not have been considered appropriate but by 1989, with the benefit of several years’ hindsight, it would have sat perfectly on that album. The lyrics are no more risqué than those on Remember When Lovin’ Took All Night.

 

[Mark-T]

Various thoughts- On LMLTY, “baby get it while it’s hot” sounds cliche but I like the song more than RWLTAN.

The worst of the solo sessions to me is It’s Truly You. The stanzas are fine (and in hindsight sound autobiographical) but the chorus is just too high.

I think if All Because of You came later in side one, it’d go down easier. It’s definitely different but not bad.

There’s so much on the album I like. Not more than the duo, just different. Karen’s voice in most any form is very appealing to me, and I love the smooth jazz/horn/late night radio vibe on this disc.

 

[tomswift2002]

Hard to say really. One one hand, Richard's success would never have been without Karen. He's a very good musician/arranger but he'd can't sing lead so without Karen, he'd never have been an artist. He'd have to have operated behind the scenes. Further, his preferred sound never would have gotten over without Karen. He seemed to largely prefer the "elevator" approach and it only worked for as long as it did because his sister just happens to be the single greatest Pop singer the world has ever known. She was every bit of their "calling card" and there's no way he doesn't know that.

On the other hand, Carpenters' were "ice cold" commercially at that point. Their approach was no longer remotely interesting to most so a Karen solo record likely wouldn't have mattered much - no matter who produced it. They were thought of as hopelessly square at that point and Karen's record likely would have done nothing to change that. It's really not that shocking a record. There are some mildly intimate things there but nothing overtly sexual. Most of all, music had changed and there was simply no place for them anymore, really. While I'm glad we got her solo record, I'm not sure it would have meant much anyway, honestly. It likely wouldn't have done anything and she'd have gone back to working with Richard anyway.

Thought that doesn't fit anywhere: "Love Makin' Love to You" is one I just don't buy coming from Karen. Yes, it absolutely does make a really good-sounding record (thank you, Phil Ramone and Rod Temperton) but Karen just wasn't that kind of lady. She tried to sound intimate but it felt like acting to me. The lyric is way over the line for her and it would have been met with chuckles had it made the track listing and had the album actually come out in 1980. Likely, Phil and Karen knew that it just wasn't believable and left it off the record. Smart move, IMHO.

Ed

I have to wonder if it was their choice or a choice by Richard or Herb or someone else to remove Love Making Love To You, since the song was finalized and was clearly meant to be included on the album (same with Don’t Try To Win Me Back—-both songs could be released on a compilation with no mixing or recording necessary). Whoever made the decision made a poor decision, as both songs should’ve been on the album and the waltz and ballads should’ve been left off.

But there seemed to be a split at A&M at the executive level over the album. Remember A&M’s New York executives approved it before Lovelines and the other January 1980 recording sessions took place, but then it was the LA executives and Richard who started throwing up issues with the album (could Love Making Love To You have been the original opening track? Remember, as Ramone wrote in the liner notes, their aim with the album was to appeal to the Carpenters current fans, but also attract an all-new audience that wasn’t listening to the standard Carpenters album and wouldn’t be interested in picking up a standard Carpenters album). Also, considering that It was Herb Alpert who recommended Ramone, a producer who was reaching the top of the charts at the time with Billy Joel, Paul Simon and Kenny Loggins, there was some political move going on in LA, to where Alpert would later backtrack. Also, Phil Ramone had produced Kenny Loggins first solo album (1977) after his split from Loggins and Messina, an album that had Loggins record a couple songs that sounded like his L&M work, but then the rest of the album was a departure from the L&M mold. And the album landed in Billboard’s Top 30 (#27). Same situation as with Karen’s album, but it was never released in 1980 because of office politics.

But then we also had Karen, a day before she died tell Phil that they made a good record. It seems like in 1983, Karen was still wishing that the album had been released. Plus then in 1989 If I Had You was issued as a Karen solo single and hit the charts!

 

[newvillefan]

But there seemed to be a split at A&M at the executive level over the album. Remember A&M’s New York executives approved it before Lovelines and the other January 1980 recording sessions took place, but then it was the LA executives and Richard who started throwing up issues with the album

Nothing I have ever read or heard in interviews, documentaries or bios has ever explained what went so wrong between the playback sessions in New York and LA - or why. It’s very bizarre that the NYC session was celebratory, with everyone celebrating with champagne and bouncing off the walls (wasn’t this how it was described in the authorised Coleman bio?) and then fast forward a couple of months to the LA playback which resulted in it being declared “unreleasable”. It just doesn’t make any sense to me, unless fear of its potential, office politics and a pincer movement to shut down the album and protect Richard were at play here. I’m not having a dig at anyone involved and I don’t think I’m over-analysing stuff. It just doesn’t add up logically. I remain convinced to this day that there is still far more to this entire episode than we will ever know.

 

[John Adam]

And maybe at the time the best way to handle whatever situation they had with Karen's solo album, was to not release it.
It's just hard when you care, and you don't understand. But it's possible no one felt any need to explain it further. That was their decision at the time.

We got what we wanted in 1996 when Karen Carpenter was released, and the unreleased material was available on-line a few years later. Maybe there is no story, or all the parties involved (many that are no longer with us) have forgotten exactly why it was shelved in 1980. What an artist/record company considers releasable may be very different from a listeners point of view. Perspectives change in time, as several selections were released via Carpenters before 1996. I speak for many of us, we just want to hear everything (Karen recorded) in good quality. Period.

 

[JohnFB]

Do you guys think if we try was single material? If so why....

Its a great song- having been a Smooth Jazz fan for decades IF WE TRY caught my attention immediately as a classic example of that appealing genre - and it's so easy to understand why since the great SJ pianist/composer Bob James was deeply involved in it's production - this is the direction she should have been moving to musically, and if the 2nd rate Disco songs on the album had been replaced with more like this (and IF I HAD YOU, which is fairly SJ itself) it would have been a much better album and certainly worthy of release then and there...

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Remember this is the woman who says, "augh, I have to get into a serious mood here."
Isn't singing in a way playing a role, acting as they are the person depicted in the lyrics. Or being able to relate to another's experiences which the singer might have observed and channeling that emotion? I can understand a singer just not relating to a song's vibe. Are you saying that Karen's acting in this singing role just didn't hit the mark?

What if this song had been chosen to be in the "Lovelines" album for example, as another Karen track. Wouldn't it have fit right alongside "Remember When Lovin' Took All Night?" Another good sounding record.........

It is - I totally get you and I agree. However, she just never felt like the "sex kitten" to me. The "come hither" thing is about as convincing coming from Karen as it is coming from Richard. Okay, nothing is less convincing than "come hither" coming from Richard but still, it's in the same ballpark, IMHO. LOL!!

Ed

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I have to wonder if it was their choice or a choice by Richard or Herb or someone else to remove Love Making Love To You, since the song was finalized and was clearly meant to be included on the album (same with Don’t Try To Win Me Back—-both songs could be released on a compilation with no mixing or recording necessary). Whoever made the decision made a poor decision, as both songs should’ve been on the album and the waltz and ballads should’ve been left off.

You've mentioned that "Make Believe..." several times as a waltz but waltzes are in three. How is "Make Believe" a waltz? What am I missing?

Ed

 

[Mark-T]

It is - I totally get you and I agree. However, she just never felt like the "sex kitten" to me. The "come hither" thing is about as convincing coming from Karen as it is coming from Richard. Okay, nothing is less convincing than "come hither" coming from Richard but still, it's in the same ballpark, IMHO. LOL!!

Ed

To me, Olivia never seemed the sex kitten type but instead a beautiful, wholesome country pop girl next door. Then Grease hit. Made all of us rethink her.

Karen's solo look was certainly eye catching, so maybe the new look would have sparked interest. Who knows?

 

[John Adam]

To me, Olivia never seemed the sex kitten type but instead a beautiful, wholesome country pop girl next door. Then Grease hit. Made all of us rethink her.

Grease started it, but Totally Hot cemented it! Olivia over the early years gave us a glimpse of that side. Just took a while to get there!

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

To me, Olivia never seemed the sex kitten type but instead a beautiful, wholesome country pop girl next door. Then Grease hit. Made all of us rethink her.

Karen's solo look was certainly eye catching, so maybe the new look would have sparked interest. Who knows?

"Grease" absolutely changed ONJ's career but she had the ability to entirely change up her look. Sadly, Karen was just way too thin to really "go there." Had she been healthier, I'm not even sure she could have pulled it off. If "Love Makin'..." is any indicator, it may not have worked (IMHO).

Ed

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

And maybe at the time the best way to handle whatever situation they had with Karen's solo album, was to not release it.
It's just hard when you care, and you don't understand. But it's possible no one felt any need to explain it further. That was their decision at the time.

We got what we wanted in 1996 when Karen Carpenter was released, and the unreleased material was available on-line a few years later. Maybe there is no story, or all the parties involved (many that are no longer with us) have forgotten exactly why it was shelved in 1980. What an artist/record company considers releasable may be very different from a listeners point of view. Perspectives change in time, as several selections were released via Carpenters before 1996. I speak for many of us, we just want to hear everything (Karen recorded) in good quality. Period.

The award for most balanced comment goes to...

Ed

 

[Rumbahbah]

Hard to say really. One one hand, Richard's success would never have been without Karen. He's a very good musician/arranger but he'd can't sing lead so without Karen, he'd never have been an artist. He'd have to have operated behind the scenes. Further, his preferred sound never would have gotten over without Karen. He seemed to largely prefer the "elevator" approach and it only worked for as long as it did because his sister just happens to be the single greatest Pop singer the world has ever known. She was every bit of their "calling card" and there's no way he doesn't know that.

On the other hand, Carpenters' were "ice cold" commercially at that point. Their approach was no longer remotely interesting to most so a Karen solo record likely wouldn't have mattered much - no matter who produced it. They were thought of as hopelessly square at that point and Karen's record likely would have done nothing to change that. It's really not that shocking a record. There are some mildly intimate things there but nothing overtly sexual. Most of all, music had changed and there was simply no place for them anymore, really. While I'm glad we got her solo record, I'm not sure it would have meant much anyway, honestly. It likely wouldn't have done anything and she'd have gone back to working with Richard anyway.

Thought that doesn't fit anywhere: "Love Makin' Love to You" is one I just don't buy coming from Karen. Yes, it absolutely does make a really good-sounding record (thank you, Phil Ramone and Rod Temperton) but Karen just wasn't that kind of lady. She tried to sound intimate but it felt like acting to me. The lyric is way over the line for her and it would have been met with chuckles had it made the track listing and had the album actually come out in 1980. Likely, Phil and Karen knew that it just wasn't believable and left it off the record. Smart move, IMHO.

Ed

How the solo album would have fared if it had been released in 1980 is the million-dollar question really, as we will never know. There are points that can be made to support both sides of the argument, but none of them are definitive.

From my own perspective, I agree that the Carpenters were in a bad place commercially at the time, which might have hindered the solo album's chances. How Karen's 'image change' on the solo album would have been promoted is also a tricky one to envisage, given A&M's fairly poor track record on marketing her and the duo effectively in the past.

However, given that 'Touch Me When We're Dancing' managed to get a reasonable level of radio attention in 1981 due to it a) being something of a 'comeback' single and thus having an element of novelty about it but more importantly b) taking a more 'contemporary' approach than Carpenters tracks had done for a while, I see no reason why tracks like 'If I Had You' (which I would argue was even more contemporary-sounding than 'Touch Me When We're Dancing' and would also have had that element of novelty as a 'solo single') couldn't have done likewise - or perhaps even better - in 1980.

Also, there were plenty of other more 'contemporary' tracks on the solo album that could have been follow-up singles. Part of Made in America's problem was that 'Touch Me When We're Dancing' was the exception rather than the rule in terms of the style of songs on there, so aside from the 'image problem', they didn't have much else to release as a single to show they had continued to move with the times. 'Back in My Life Again' was too timidly executed to really convince on this front and 'Those Good Old Dreams' and 'Beechwood' were both ill-suited to be singles in 1981/1982.

Personally I quite enjoy Karen's performance on 'Love Makin' Love to You', although I think it would have been too 'risque' to have been included on the album in 1980 - she could perhaps have tackled it a couple of solo albums in if she'd wanted to, but it was probably a step too far for a debut solo album with the public image that she had going into it.

What I can say with certainty is that, in terms of quality, the album was most certainly releasable and there were clearly other factors at play in its shelving. And I will say that in hindsight, giving Karen the 'silent treatment' during the West Coast playback seems an incredibly cruel way to have dealt with the situation, regardless of whether they really believed it to be 'inferior' or not. I assume they didn't think through how such behavior would be received, but to me it seems they could hardly have picked a more devastating and damaging approach to have taken - particularly as they'd never done so before in relation to anything the Carpenters had released, even when they were aware it was below par.