Solo Album and Single Success

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Yes, chart success would of been a plus, but having it released "period" after it was completed would of been the biggest plus! We all realize the Carpenters by the later 70's weren't the hit makers that they once were. Seems like Karen just wanted it released knowing it may not fare better than recent Carpenters albums. She was willing to risk that, and I admire her courage with taking a risk at solo success or failure.

It could of became a cult classic, or it could of spawned some attention due to "that voice" venturing out a slightly out of her safety zone. It was obvious it meant a great deal to her, and to her fans that knew of it. Karen died the better part of 40 years ago. Richard and Karen have not recorded anything new in almost 40 years. We haven't had any "new" music released in 20 years. Yet we are looking forward to a wonderful new book release this fall. We are still having conversations about the Carpenters music in general dating back over 50 years. And those solo sessions are a part of that legacy. :)
 
See, that's what I'm not so sure of. Again, Carpenters meant almost nothing to the marketplace by 1977. I'm not sure she would have found success anymore than Carpenters had. The best they managed to do was #16 for "Touch Me" a year later. Not awful but not great either with a comeback album after a three-year absence. While Karen was a known entity in Carpenters, breaking her as a solo artist is a whole other thing. She would have to have been promoted in a whole new way to get her over. She was in a duo that played it incredibly safe the entire time and "Karen Carpenter" isn't a safe record - especially those Javors tunes. It would have required quite the interesting marketing campaign to make it work if it could work at all. Her voice wouldn't have been enough to do it; it certainly hadn't been from 1976 on, really.

Ed
Considering when Music, Music, Music was being recorded in February-March 1980, it’s possible that Karen could’ve planned to have sung a song from the solo album, such as Make Believe It’s Your First Time (which might explain why that song was re-recorded) to promote the album. And MMM would’ve been expected to be a ratings hit, seeing how their 4 previous specials, including their most recent, the 1978 Christmas Portrait had all placed in the Top 25 out of 56 shows for the various weeks. So there could’ve been a song on the drawing boards, like MBIYFT which would’ve been the best fit for the special.
 
See, that's what I'm not so sure of. Again, Carpenters meant almost nothing to the marketplace by 1977. I'm not sure she would have found success anymore than Carpenters had. The best they managed to do was #16 for "Touch Me" a year later. Not awful but not great either with a comeback album after a three-year absence. While Karen was a known entity in Carpenters, breaking her as a solo artist is a whole other thing. She would have to have been promoted in a whole new way to get her over. She was in a duo that played it incredibly safe the entire time and "Karen Carpenter" isn't a safe record - especially those Javors tunes. It would have required quite the interesting marketing campaign to make it work if it could work at all. Her voice wouldn't have been enough to do it; it certainly hadn't been from 1976 on, really.

Ed

I'm not sure if Karen, with or without Richard, would have had musical success in the 80's in the "pop star" way they were in the 70's. That would have required an image makeover, and adoption of 80's music sensibilities, that she/they might not have been able to make.

Vegas? Yes, I think they could have had long runs in Vegas, at least for a while.

BUT - I cannot imagine a world where Karen is healthy and vibrant and that voice isn't heard somewhere. Musicals, duets, movie soundtracks, even prominent background singing perhaps (Toni Tennille sang back-up on a number of Elton John songs, including Don't Let the Sun go Down on Me, for example).

Her voice was legitimately one-of-a-kind, and I think she'd have had numerous opportunities in the 80's, if she wanted them.
 
Just like Ordinary Fool should not have been shelved, I feel the same about Love Making Love To You. It has the Chorus that musically hooks you, especially with Karen’s voice selling it. But that’s how I see it looking back. In 1980, I think I would have been shocked at the lyrics, and it would have made me question things a bit. I sometimes think that’s what was heard at A&M. The shock factor. They are not suggestive lyrics by today’s standards but in 1980, her fans would have wanted to hear her singing A Song For You type of music, exploring the more intimate nature of truth with more “serious music”. After all, Karen was a perfect ballad singer that few could touch. Today, we follow artists into different paths but in those days they had to know how to categorize you, and a stack of catalog sales of Carpenters music was in the balance, too. After all, it took time and effort of life’s sweat to create them. (I think the Manhattan Transfer dealt with some of that. Who are they, pop or jazz? But fans liked that part of their identity.) Today, we appreciate the artist more for their exploration.

In our own lives we often try to diffuse the real reason we decide something so we turn it into a logical excuse reason that’s easier for someone to hold onto. I think some of that played here, too.

To me, the songs are good and great if you take away the Javor songs. I also feel it was ahead of it’s time in many respects. On the other hand I feel, had she been well, the songs would have more “spring or bite” to them and when people closest to you know your potential, they don’t want to see you release a product sub par. So it becomes, it really could have been better in their minds.

We are hooked, so we love it all.

sorry to ramble
 
I feel the same about Love Making Love To You. It has the Chorus that musically hooks you, especially with Karen’s voice selling it. But that’s how I see it looking back. In 1980, I think I would have been shocked at the lyrics, and it would have made me question things a bit. I sometimes think that’s what was heard at A&M. The shock factor. They are not suggestive lyrics by today’s standards but in 1980, her fans would have wanted to hear her singing A Song For You type of music, exploring the more intimate nature of truth with more “serious music”. After all, Karen was a perfect ballad singer that few could touch.

Nicely stated Craig. I was a toddler when this album would of came out. By the time I became interested in the Carpenters I was nearly 10 years old. I really didn't listen to lyrics much then, but her vocals really got me hooked. By the time the album was released in it's 12 track form in 1996 I never heard anything lyrically that would of hindered my interest. She was a grown woman singing about everyday things and thoughts someone would have at that age. But to someone who grew up in the 60's - 70's I can understand the shock factor. Every generation thinks they are the most radical, then the next generation tops that in some way. I also wish Love Making Love was included on the album. It's rhythmic, sensual, and Karen brings it to life!
 
Here are a couple of questions that occurred to me recently about Karen’s album. In the September 1979 newsletter, Rosina wrote that “all the material apart from one oldie will be original (No Disco!)” [the last two words obviously added at Richard’s request].

1. Why was the “no disco” comment even added, when it must have been obvious to the family by the autumn (when this newsletter was written) that the album did actually contain some light disco material? We know that Karen had played some tracks to them by then, so this comment confuses me.

2. Which track was the newsletter referring to as an oldie? It surely can’t have been “Still Crazy After All These Years”, because that was only released four years earlier. Maybe the plan at that stage was to develop “Jimmy Mack” into a track for the album, which Karen and Phil later decided against.
 
My guess would definitely be Jimmy Mack. The recording is the weakest of all the solo tracks for me. Far more light weight than Beechwood 4-5789. I’m glad they left it off the final master. There are 100’s of better oldies she could have sang, like Baby I’m Yours. It would have melted my heart.
 
There are 100’s of better oldies she could have sang, like Baby I’m Yours.

The question is though, why was she even considering a track like “Jimmy Mack” in the first place, when it would have been so out of place with the rest of the material on the album? The whole point of recording with Phil was to break away and do something different. If he was responsible for steering her away from the idea, then that’s one thing he can be credited for. That’s what Carpenters were doing in 1973 and what they doggedly returned to in 1981 once she was back in the fold - which I think was a mistake.
 
Do you think Karen could have pulled off a video to Jimmy Mack like this in one of her or Richard’s old cars in 1980?

Sheena’s version sounds like the same tempo as Karen’s demo.

 
There was definitely a concerted effort to have a "remake" hit with "Jimmy Mack". Even Herb's wife, Lani Hall, tried her hand at it in the early 80s:

 
The problem is like Stephen mentioned it just doesn’t fit with the rest of the material on her solo album. Jimmy Mack to me has a oldies soul sounding vibe. I can see it as a hidden bonus track on her album…deeply hidden lol 😂
 
Here are a couple of questions that occurred to me recently about Karen’s album. In the September 1979 newsletter, Rosina wrote that “all the material apart from one oldie will be original (No Disco!)” [the last two words obviously added at Richard’s request].

1. Why was the “no disco” comment even added, when it must have been obvious to the family by the autumn (when this newsletter was written) that the album did actually contain some light disco material? We know that Karen had played some tracks to them by then, so this comment confuses me.

2. Which track was the newsletter referring to as an oldie? It surely can’t have been “Still Crazy After All These Years”, because that was only released four years earlier. Maybe the plan at that stage was to develop “Jimmy Mack” into a track for the album, which Karen and Phil later decided against.

Of the 21 tracks that at least demo vocals were recorded, I think Jimmy Mack was one of the weaker efforts. I know it wasn't nearly finished, but Phil must of had a good reason for not continuing the work on that track. I guess in all fairness, like all the others. But you know, we all love things that were recorded and at that time left off of Carpenters albums too. Good examples are some of the tracks recorded for, but not on Made In America.

But it would be fun to find out the reasons why things were not used or finished. I'm assuming "Carpenters - The Musical Legacy" is not going to be covering the solo album sessions, just the (joint) Richard and Karen recording sessions?
 
Of the 21 tracks that at least demo vocals were recorded, I think Jimmy Mack was one of the weaker efforts. I know it wasn't nearly finished, but Phil must of had a good reason for not continuing the work on that track. I guess in all fairness, like all the others. But you know, we all love things that were recorded and at that time left off of Carpenters albums too. Good examples are some of the tracks recorded for, but not on Made In America.

But it would be fun to find out the reasons why things were not used or finished. I'm assuming "Carpenters - The Musical Legacy" is not going to be covering the solo album sessions, just the (joint) Richard and Karen recording sessions?
Thats a great point you make john. Even if the tracks were not all good it would still be nice to have them finished and released. My favorites of these are something's missing and love making love to you.
 
But it would be fun to find out the reasons why things were not used or finished. I'm assuming "Carpenters - The Musical Legacy" is not going to be covering the solo album sessions, just the (joint) Richard and Karen recording sessions?
Correct. However, the discography does list solo tracks if they were included on an official Carpenters release. :)
 
My favorites of these are something's missing and love making love to you.

I’ve read lots of messages in support of “Love Makin’ Love To You” on various solo threads over the years, it’s probably my favourite track from the sessions after “If I Had You”. It’s far better than some of the material that made the final cut but I also agree that had Karen included it and the album had been released, she would have been laughed out of town in some places, because it’s just so at odds with her image. I wish Richard would release it on a future compilation though as a treat for the fans, because it’s finished and ready to go. It’s sad to think that such a great effort - backing vocals and all - is just sitting gathering dust.

The litmus test for me with this album and whether it would have been a success is the part Quincy Jones played near the end of the story. If the material was as poor as some people state, he would not have wanted to get involved and have his name associated with it, because he doesn’t associate himself with ashtray material.
 
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^^^ Yeah that’s a fake account in Richard’s name. Many of the tracks have been spruced up using pro tools or similar, to make them sound complete or “official”.
 

It can sometimes be easy to forget amongst the elevator things Richard arranged that he really is one heck of a jazz player. Karen was too. That take on "Ipanema" proves it definitively. I would love to have heard them cut a jazz record. I wonder if that would have happened at some point had she lived and had she gotten healthier to get behind the drums again.

Ed
 
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I remember really clearly when I first ever heard those leaked tracks from Karen’s solo sessions. It was back in 1993 when I was at university, three years before the album was released. All I had at that point were the six available tracks from Lovelines and From The Top, although I knew there were more in the vaults. Sure enough, all six were on this cassette I had been sent, along with all of the other solo material, including the outtakes.

On first listen the main issue I quickly discovered, much to my chagrin, was that the audio recordings were (obviously) bootlegged, but also many generations away from the leaked A&M source tapes, so not only was the sound quality poor but also sped up - Karen sounded borderline chipmunk, but I still fell in love with what I heard. I thought of all ways of slowing the audio down to get a better idea of how they really sounded, but couldn’t think of anything. They were in no particular order and because the solo album hadn’t yet been released, I had no way of knowing which other tracks had made the final cut - although I spent many fun hours trying to guess the missing tracks and creating my own “official” tracklist and sequencing.

You can imagine my joy when the official solo CD finally dropped through the letterbox on October 8, 1996 - the day of its release. I peeled off the wrapping and flipped it over to check how close I’d gotten to the real running order - I wasn’t too far off, but remember thinking mine was better :laugh: . I put on my headphones, pressed play and heard the long-awaited prize come to life in its true form, all its glory and in sparkling stereo.
 
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The Karen solo outtake "Truly You" sure sounds enhanced.
Makes me wish the other outtakes had been finished further! (With Phil or Richard's involvement.)
 
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I was always struck by Richard's comment in the Coleman book that there wasn't a hit single on Karen's solo album..."with the possible exception of 'If I Had You'".

I always interpreted this as a begrudging acceptance by Richard that the album did indeed contain a hit song, just that he didn't like to admit it. Had the album been released, what do you think the chance of single success would have been? I think it's fun to speculate. What other songs do you think would have fared well? What do you think the B-sides would have been?

Assuming Karen had gone ahead and released it in May 1980 instead of cancelling it, here are mine:

May 1980
Single #1: If I Had You
B-side: If We Try
Comment: Lead Single

August 1980
Single #2: My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
B-side: All Because Of You
Comment: Great summer single!

November 1980
Single #3: Make Believe It's Your First Time
B-side: Lovelines
Comment: Reflective autumn/winter single
I think If I Had You is a vocal masterpiece, but I'd have led with My Body Keeps Changin' My Mind. SUCH an infectious melody and vocal. Numero Uno. Wish they'd have given her at least a single release. Then they could have adjusted course as needed...
 
I think If I Had You is a vocal masterpiece, but I'd have led with My Body Keeps Changin' My Mind. SUCH an infectious melody and vocal. Numero Uno. Wish they'd have given her at least a single release. Then they could have adjusted course as needed...

I think "Body" would of been a fluke surprise hit or a total chart bomb, no in-between.
But "If I Had You" might of had more crossover appeal, and been a more memorable first solo single.
That said, vocals on both tracks are outstanding for the type of songs they were.
Definitely should of released a solo single, then made the decision on the album's release or not.
 
Do you guys think if we try was single material? If so why. I thoroughly enjoy this song as well as all because of you.

Yes, and no. It is one of my favorites. If We Try could of been a potential follow-up to a successful single (had there been one!) It is more Carpenteresque, it might of done well on AC stations. All Because Of You, I've grown to like, but I don't like it as the 2nd track of the album. It interrupts the flow. But when I move the song elsewhere I enjoy it!

Disclaimer: I love the solo album and outtakes, as well as the body of work from Richard and Karen. Its equally relevant to me.
 
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