THE LONELY BULL - Your Reviews

How would you rate this album?

  • ***** (Best)

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • ****

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • ***

    Votes: 10 43.5%
  • **

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • * (Worst)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    23
Status
Not open for further replies.

Harry

Charter A&M Corner Member
Staff member
Site Admin
Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass
THE LONELY BULL




Song Listing:

The Lonely Bull (El Solo Toro) {Sol Lake} [2:29]
El Lobo (The Wolf) {Lake-Green} [2:58]
Tijuana Sauerkraut {Alpert-Moss} [2:44]
Desafinado {Jobim-Mendonca} [3:42]
Mexico {Bryant} [2:36]
Never On Sunday {Hadjidakis-Towne} [2:38]
Struttin' With Maria {Alpert} [2:10]
Let It Be Me {Becaud} [2:55]
Acapulco 1922 {Eldon Allan, aka Dave Alpert} [2:38]
Limbo Rock {Strange} [2:05]
Crawfish {Lake-Doran} [2:20]
A Quiet Tear (Lagrima Quieta) {Alpert} [2:23]

The new SHOUT! Factory CD is out so let us know what you think of it. Let's keep this discussion to ONLY this album.

Harry
 
I did an a/b comparison on THE LONELY BULL this morning.

My first observation is that the new disc is not all that much 'louder' than the A&M CD from 1988, if at all. I used my Phillips CD recorder to play the old disc, and my Sony single-disc CD player to play the new disc. The Sony has a "fade" feature that will lower the output in increments of 1db, so I use that to make the two signals sound just as loud as each other, intuitively, and then make my comparisons. On some new re-issues in the past I've had to lower that Sony by as much as 8-10db to sound like the older one - not so on THE LONELY BULL. At most it's 2 or 3db difference.

The biggest difference I hear in the new mastering is the stereo separation. If you recall, THE LONELY BULL was an early stereo creation, with a lot of hard left, and hard right sounds on virtually every track. This mastering preserves that - in fact, so much so, that listening with headphones is not the best way to hear this album.

The old A&M album had some kind of processing on it to minimize the two-room stereo effect somewhat, whereas the new one seems to be a straightforward pressing from the way I remember my LP to be - without any vinyl distortion.

If anything, the new disc sounds cleaner in many places. Listen to the isolated "Ya-ya-ya-ya" vocal track the first time through on "Tijuana Sauerkraut." At the end of the singing, one guy says something, which is almost buried in the mix on the A&M CD. Here it jumps out at you.

Now, is this a good thing or a bad thing? My personal opinion is that it's good - just not with headphones. If I planned to listen to THE LONELY BULL with headphones, I'd probably choose the A&M disc. But if I'm listening on a boombox or a full-blown stereo system, the new disc really shines, showing off the separation.

One other thing I noticed is the increased time between tracks. The old A&M disc seemed rushed to get from track to track. This new one has longer pauses between tracks, resulting in a disc that's at least 30 seconds longer than the old one.

Dropouts that I noticed on the new disc are largely evident on the old disc too - just not as pronounced. The new separated stereo masternig seems to bring out the existing flaws more.

I noticed no attempt at noise reduction. Hiss, hum, and other tape noise anomalies are all there. Listen to the opening of "A Quiet Tear" and hear all of that muck in the left channel while the music begins on the right.

If I could be granted a wish, it would be that this album also got a mono treatment as well, since so many of these tracks sound more 'together' in mono.

Harry
...with his two cents on LONELY BULL, online...
 
hey everyone. well first I guess herb is showing us that he cares for us fans. he is releasing all of the tjb albums, on cd, thank you Herb. now I got the lonely bull yesterday and the sound is a lot cleaner and a bit louder. and the symbols and maracas is cleaner. but I was a bit surprised on acapulco 1992 at the beginning for it being remastered as I was listing through my headphones you can still hear a bit of tape hiss. and all of the rest of the songs are done great. now for the booklet, on page 6 we see herb in a picture from the 50's holding his trumpet, and it tell of the history of from the beginning. with great pictures through out the 18 page booklet. like from the studio ones and with herb and a bunch of girl at a party playing the trumpet. but my surprise no credits showing who were the musicans that played on each track. is it this way on the other cds as well? but anyway the remastering is great and the sound is better separated. worth the buy.
bob
 
Tape hiss is good. :agree: If it were gone, that would mean they used noise reduction, which would have killed the sound of it. Digital noise reduction should be outlawed in my opinion--too many classic recordings reissued on CD in the past 10-15 years have been destroyed by it. (Don't even get me started on EQ and brick-wall digital limiting... :rolleyes: )
 
I believe that if the offending noise is first sampled alone and then applied inversely to the track, no degradation of the original sound occurs; in fact the music will shine through more clearly. Listen to Judy Garland at Carnegie Hall (Bob Norberg) for a stunning example of sound restoration work.

On the other hand, the late fifties Sinatra stuff (also Bob Norberg) is a sad example of heavyhandedness. He was led into temptation by the early three track tapes, which provided opportunity to screw with the orchestra separately from the vocal track. The orchestra became a shell of it's former self, sounding as if it went out in the hallway for a cigarette break.
 
Some engineers get obcessed with having NO hiss at all, and wind up chopping bits of the real music out along with the hiss.
 
Update:

I ran the two songs Mexico and El Lobo through Wavelab. I took the tape hiss down a notch with Waves X-Noise running with a custom made restoration setting, and ran a process which I call "centerfill", to set a soundstage on severely separated stereo recordings. The results are spectacular! Bright, fat sound! Just how I had hoped the recordings would be. The original 1988 CD doesn't hold a candle to the reissues, as far as the solid, fat and clean bass.

One thing, the reissued Acapulco 1922 sounds as if it was run through a cheese grater. What up?
 
There's a comment on the liner notes that say HAlpert never listened to Mariachi music. I've never owned a Mariachi record but living in Phoenix my whole life is where I've absorbed the South of the border nuances (and my father would play his records/mex stuff etc.) But HA being raised in LA, I believe he was absorbing everything around him...when he sings in Spanish... I don't even hear an accent! :bandit: I'd like to know if 40 or 45 years ago he wasn't going into music venues in East LA and studying what was goin' on with the ethnic rhythms etc. Hey amigos...........just thinkin' out loud here in the sunny Southwest:cool: Paz.........Jay
 
I agree with Jay on this. Really, the only thing about the album that really says "Mexico" (besides the song titles) is the twin trumpets and to a lesser extent, the percussion. The influence is clearly there though, not just in the OLE's but in those trumpet harmonies.
 
My evaluation of LONELY BULL is that it is a bit louder and more detailed in most places than the A&M CD. On, both though, what the heck is with Julius Wechter's marimbas on DESIFINADO? Herb and the percussionists are bright and clear and Julius sounds like he's coming through an alarm clock speaker in the next room. There is also audible distortion on both discs in that passage. I haven't dug out my stereo LP to see if it's just tape degredation or was it really recorded that poorly. Otherwise the sound is pretty good. I don't know if we're rating sound quality or music content or both so I'll hold off on voting till someone answers the question.

David,
anxiously awaiting WCAOD.......
 
After listening to TLB, my impression is that it sounds "messy." I'm guessing this is because of the age of the original recordings and the fact that recording equipment then was primitive compared to what is used today. Haven't listened to my LP in a long time so can't really compare the two. And I never had the CD release of TLB so that doesn't factor in my opinion.

Am I dreaming it or did I read somewhere -- a long time ago -- that Herb recorded this album in his GARAGE?
 
manifan said:
After listening to TLB, my impression is that it sounds "messy." I'm guessing this is because of the age of the original recordings and the fact that recording equipment then was primitive compared to what is used today. Haven't listened to my LP in a long time so can't really compare the two. And I never had the CD release of TLB so that doesn't factor in my opinion.

Am I dreaming it or did I read somewhere -- a long time ago -- that Herb recorded this album in his GARAGE?

This is what is perplexing. Are these master tapes, or stereo mixdowns?

The tapes, if masters, must have been stored very poorly. One can purchase Verve or Capitol reissues going back to the early fifties and hear pristine sound with no dropouts.

I believe these albums were recording at Gold Star. Does anyone know which equipment and tape was used there? No such information on the Gold Star Website: http://www.goldstarrecordingstudios.com
 
Initial thoughts:

As El Capitan observes, there are now not two but three credits for composer of "Acapulco 1922." Makes you wonder how ASCAP knows whose mailbox gets the royalty checks.

Harry: If you recall, THE LONELY BULL was an early stereo creation, with a lot of hard left, and hard right sounds on virtually every track. This mastering preserves that - in fact, so much so, that listening with headphones is not the best way to hear this album.

Exactly right. With some exceptions (such as "A Quiet Tear"), this album offers two almost entirely different listening experiences, depending on whether or not one is listening with headphones. Of the two, I much prefer listening with headphones off—with one notable exception.

thetijuanataxi complains about the muddiness of Julius's marimbas in "Desafinado." When I first listened to the reissue on my regular speakers, I laughed out loud in rueful agreement: The sound resembles what comes out of my alarm clock, too. However, when I listened again last night with headphones, the quality of sound was unbelievably better. I wonder if it has to do with the bass marimbas Mr. Wechter was playing and the less-than-state-of-the-art speakers I own. Whatever the reason, when I listen to the reissue's track of "Desafinado," my headphones are going back on!

carlito asks about the studio in which The Lonely Bull was recorded. On my LP and A & M CD, credit is given to Conway Recorders in Hollywood. Messrs. Alpert and Moss had not yet made the move to Gold Star. manifan asks about the garage in which Mr. Alpert originally recorded the single—or at least the trumpet parts of the single—"The Lonely Bull." This, I think, is true. Certainly it has become part of TJB lore. The ace moderators of the site can speak to its veracity, and can probably descibe for the rest of us the layout of the house behind which the garage was located.
 
Numero Cinco said:
manifan asks about the garage in which Mr. Alpert originally recorded the single—or at least the trumpet parts of the single—"The Lonely Bull." This, I think, is true. Certainly it has become part of TJB lore. The ace moderators of the site can speak to its veracity, and can probably descibe for the rest of us the layout of the house behind which the garage was located.

To read the story in the words of those involved, check out this old post where I quoted the chapter from A&M RECORDS: THE FIRST TEN YEARS: A FAIRY TALE about the events of 1962:

http://www.amcorner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=765

There's even a picture of the house where the 'garage' was.

Harry
...looking through old posts, online...
 
Yes, Harry, thank you so much for looking this up for us. It does one's heart good to know sometimes that the memory doesn't always fail!
 
Harry said:
If I could be granted a wish, it would be that this album also got a mono treatment as well, since so many of these tracks sound more 'together' in mono.

Funny you should mention this, Harry. I had the same thought while listening to TLB this morning. Dad's first copy of this album was an Lp, not a reel-to-reel, which became an eventual hobby of his. That said, I recall hearing the Lp far more than the reel. Being the completest Dad was, he bought the reel version to complete his collection. When it came to TLB, he usually played the Lp -- or a copy he'd made from the record itself.

Interesting, considering that was well over 40 years ago, and we're here talking about the same comparisons all these years later.

Jon
 
I will agree that the sound on this disc is low, but I think that's largely due to complaints from fans about high equalization on reissues. Not that there's anything wrong with that, because I'm trying to enjoy the music, not get my eardrum busted! I never heard the original '80s-era CD reissue, so I can't make a comparison. The song "The Lonely Bull" sounds like the master used on DEFINITIVE HITS, brought down to a much lower frequency, again, not complaining, because as Mr. Alpert said then, "The original tape of the song 'The Lonely Bull' has been lost. You're hearing an enhanced monaural version". The rest sounds like the master tape to what I assume the stereo mix of the album sounded like. I'm glad for the liner notes. Wish there was a song-by-song remembrance, but that's splitting hairs. I think what's there says enough. I just have a question about the black and white photo of Mr. Alpert with the other musicians (the same question I think others have as well): Are these the people who played on this album? I'm just happy that this CD is finally here, that the little imperfections it may have seem a bit trivial at this point. :thumbsup:

Thank you to Mr. Herb Alpert and the folks at Shout! Factory for getting these reissues out for old and new fans to enjoy.
 
The B&W photo, originally on the back cover of TLB was just a "Stock" photo done I guess to make the band look Mexican. The only for sures as far as musicians go on TLB are Julius Wechter and Bob Edmonson. The rest are anybody's guess. The mandolin is probably Ervan "Bud" Coleman and the drums could be Hal Blaine of Frank De Vito but that's just a guess. We know the guitar is not John Pisano because he didn't come along till the SOTB sessions. Unfortunately we will probably never know for sure who the musicians are.

David,
NP The Lonely Bull (Remastered)
 
A great album of course, ***** all the way.

This reissue is enjoyable, but problematic. First of all, while I'm detecting some NR use on SOTB, this one seems to have pretty much been left alone: whatever inherent imperfections and hiss are on the master tape are turning up here.

For all intents and purposes, this stereo mix 'is what it is': twin-track, essentially, and so remixing, even if possible, would probably have been to the music's detriment, since the logical inclination would have been to tighten up the hard left/right separation. As it is, if anything, this remaster has even more separation. As Harry points out, this sort of thing is disconcerting on headphones. On my big system, it works very nicely. Primitive, but effective. And since the hiss is obvious here, the NR, if any, was kept to a minimum. That is good!

On the negative side...this is an album that works best in the original mono, since these are the original mixes, whereas some cuts on the stereo Lp have added instrumentation to turn them into stereo mixes. There was more than enough disc space to offer both mono and stereo, and I'm disappointed there are not, at the least, bonus tracks for the single mixes. Didn't really expect to get them, but still......

I'm glad I bought both discs, but can't honestly rate either as 100% what they could have been. But they ARE listenable, and we all know that didn't have to happen.... :|

:ed:
 
alpertfan said:
The song "The Lonely Bull" sounds like the master used on DEFINITIVE HITS, brought down to a much lower frequency, again, not complaining, because as Mr. Alpert said then, "The original tape of the song 'The Lonely Bull' has been lost. You're hearing an enhanced monaural version".

The stereo version was on the master tape, right where it's always been.
 
The record sounds much as you'd expect 40-year old tapes to sound. Lots of hiss, but it's quite probable that some of Herb's multi-tracking was done simply by overdubbing twin track recordings, so some parts on the tapes may be second or third generation elements to start with.

The album doesn't sound as clean and perfect as other re-releases from this period simply because it hasn't been subjected to any noise reduction. You can (as some here have already done) add your own if you want!!

The only thing that I find a little unpleasant is the extreme separation (understandable, given the way the album was recorded). I've remastered a number of recordings from this period and have tended to bring the stereo stage "in" a bit to make it sound more pleasant on headphones. But that's just a subjective bit of sound balancing.

Unlike quite a lot of people here, I really love the digipaks. I hate jewel cases (carry a pile of them and watch the chaos when they start to slip apart) - only this morning I had one arrive in the post with a little pile of broken bits in the bag. Digipaks are the nearest thing to vinyl packaging (Unless you go for a straight careboard sleeve, but that's just a little sparse for me) and I like the look and feel of these albums. Although of course being British, I'm accustomed to vinyl sleeves being glossy laminated, but I guess most of you on the other side of the pond don't mind a matt finish!!
 
:o I waited so long for this? :sad:

I'm sorry to anyone who may be offended about my comments but overall, the Lonely Bull reissue is a mess. :mad: As was noted above, headphones are definitely not the medium for listening to this album. And what's up with that anyway? I just thank my lucky stars that South of the Border and Lost Treasures didn't turn out like this!

Technically, my gut feeling has no merit I'm sure but what it says to me is that they were so pleased to be getting more sound off those tapes, they wanted to let you know. I noticed immediately that in digging deep for sounds the original '88 recordings didn't get, they pulled up a lot of audio sludge as well. In my humble opinion they should have left well enough alone.

I have no sympathy for the view that we should hear everything there was on the original tapes if getting to that degree of realism means hearing a lot of grunge that was never part of the music. If I had done this album, I would have tried to get a recording that simulates what we would hear if the TJB walked into the studio today. And I don't care what audio techniques would have been necessary to do it.

We should be realistic about our national energy problems, the war in Iraq, nuclear weapons in North Korea, and Social Security. When it comes to the Lonely Bull, I'm not interested, I want good sound.

Fortunately, there are about 3-5 tracks that are of passable to good quality and definitely listenable but whoever did this album should be made to stand in the corner for 10-15 years.

I'll probably make a recording of the best tracks from both albums and listen to that from now on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom