THE LONELY BULL - Your Reviews

[JMK]

I'm really surprised by the level of defensiveness on this Board so I think I'll just retreat back to the good old Sergio Board where there doesn't seem to be this sort of emphasis on blind, unswerving adulation of an artist (witness the comments on the, dare I say it, lackluster "Magic Lady" thread from a few weeks ago). I never "dissed" Herb, I never said he wasn't a good trumpet player or an important figure in pop music, or indeed that I didn't like him (I have several favorite TJB recordings, Lonely Bull just isn't among them). I stand by my comments that, to me, Lonely Bull is a relatively unpolished and obviously hurriedly recorded album. I would note that the majority of those who voted in the poll on this album gave it either 2 or 3 stars. It's been fun.

 

[Harry]

Tough crowd, huh Jeff?

Harry

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Don't mess with the Herb mafia!

David,
ROFL

 

[thetijuanataxi]

JMK wrote: I would note that the majority of those who voted in the poll on this album gave it 2 or 3 stars.

Yes, and we know where they live!

David,
trying to inject some levity, online..........

 

[Mr Bill]

Holy Crap! I can't believe the level of animosity in this thread the last two days! Everyone take a Midol/Pamprin/Premsyn or loosen up your maxi-pads! (At least it looks like our cycles are in sync, though)

I think every TJB album is someone's favorite! And so what if TLB isn't the overall winner in such a popularity contest. For its historical significance alone, it's a great LP.

--Mr Bill
wondering if the TLB lovers will retalitate against the Warm lovers after that album gets reissued...

 

[Steven J. Gross]

I rated it "BEST".
It's the first TJB album. It doesn't get much better. Essential.

 

[Dave]

Well, yeah! It seems we're expecting an LP, that's 40+-years-old to live up to CONTEMPORARY STANDARDS, just because it's on CD!

I mean if this were the first time ...Lonely Bull were ever issued would we STILL feel this way? EVERYBODY has beginnings... Yeah, Sergio's debut and 2nd LP are a bit "primitive" sounding too--AND Magic Lady is a bit "overproduced" (and still to me, "lackluster", if we're going to pin that term here & there; it CAN apply to ANYTHING in terms of "content", can't it?!--not just "an evolution of sound...") but this is just a DEBUT when not much was expected, but the statement Herb wanted to make musically, for the times!

OK, just really wanted to say, through the up's and down's of this thread, at least we're still CIVIL on this topic... (Even though the "...Those of you who gave this album 2- and 3-stars, We know where you live!!" statement has me feeling WARY! )

Like, Cool It!!


Dave

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Yeah, it's a good thing everyone agrees SOUTH OF THE BORDER and LOST TREASURES are awesome!

 

[Rudy]

I stand by my comments that, to me, Lonely Bull is a relatively unpolished and obviously hurriedly recorded album. I would note that the majority of those who voted in the poll on this album gave it either 2 or 3 stars. It's been fun.

Similar feelings here. It's an important album for Herb and the label, but what you basically have is a musically uneven collection of recordings by an artist who is still discovering what direction to take. (Do we stick with the bull ring sounds? Do we do bossa or jazz?) It does have some classic songs on it, but personally, something like Whipped Cream or !!Going Places!! is more along the lines of what I'd recommend as essential listening, since these two really put him on the map in terms of popularity. I still enjoy the album, but if I were recommending a good starting point for anyone, I'd point to the other two albums I mentioned. He'd nailed his sound and style by that point...and the public obviously thought so as well.

Or think about it this way: how many truly musically solid debut albums are out there? Yes, some really "nail it", but for many long-running groups or artists, their debuts felt similar to Lonely Bull. And I'm talking of any musical style here. Those first albums often show the brilliance of the artist behind it, but the execution isn't quite perfected yet. No crime in that at all!

Or as it's sometimes better to say: this album isn't better or worse; it's different, like apples and oranges.

 

[Harry]

I tend to think of THE LONELY BULL the same way I do The Beatles' PLEASE PLEASE ME. They were both done in a hurry, on a shoestring budget, and were both firsts.

THE LONELY BULL album was probably recorded at Conway Recorders in an afternoon or two, both recording the ten songs to pad out the album, and adding the stereo finishing touches on the two tracks from the single. I don't think that the fledging A&M label, them pretty much just Herb and Jerry could have afforded too much time in the studio for getting just the right sound. It was probably just get in, get it done, and get out.

So naturally, there's a rawness to the album. It is what it is - and it's remarkable that forty three years later we're still discussing it!

Harry

 

[Captaindave]

Those posts above that use the terms "essential," "historically significant," and "important" have captured the main idea behind my thoughts as well. TLB is the first album from what has come to be one of the most significant and influential artists in pop music history. It IS a significant and important album since it is the genesis of what was to come over the decade.

I think that ALL the TJB albums have their own personality, or "atmosphere," so to speak. Each album has its own character and distinctive sound. TLB is no exception. TLB is the foundation, the genesis, the springboard to the TJB sound and style.

It matters little whether TLB is or isn't without flaw or imperfection. It marks a new direction, as I mentioned above. It introduces a new artist, as well as an emerging and original sound and style.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Good grief! Who let out the drama queens here?

The Lonely Bull is hardly a masterpiece, but it was an important first step for Alpert and A&M. If it wasn't for the title tune becoming a hit -and rightfully so, since it's an engaging performance - then this album probably would not have happened. It's an incredibly simple, sparse album without any frills. A couple of tunes ("Tijuana Sauerkraut" and "Let It Be Me") I consider as disposable tunes. There's just not much to them, IMHO. On the other hand, some of the simple things work well, as on "A Quiet Tear" and "Limbo Rock". I love Herb's playing on "Crawfish", whereas his playing on "Desafinado" is okay, but hardly earth-shattering.

The fact is that Herb Alpert is not a great trumpeter by any means. But he is a smart player, and usually has a knack for picking out great songs and doing pretty good arrangements, getting great musicians to surround him and he knows how to make a good record. He knows his limits on the horn and usually stays within those limits, and has had great success with it over the years.

As for the sound of this remastered CD, I can say it in two words: It sucks! I love listening to albums through my headphones, and this was a completely miserable experience. There's just no other way to put it. It's not as bad coming through my speakers, but through the headphones all I heard was what sounded like a garbled tape being used. A total botched job. I can only hope that the future reissues will be handled better, because these albums deserve a better treatment.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program...


Capt. Bacardi
...dealing with reality, online...

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Well said Harry, Rudy and Captain Dave. You covered all of the points that need to be said about TLB without exhalting or criticizing it. Personally I think it's one of the strongest debut efforts of our time. And Harry is right. The fact that fans are discussing and rejoicing over the album 43 years later is a testament to how timeless and significant it is. Also, since its re-issue it has consistantly placed between 500 and 1,500 on Amazon's sales survey. Not bad considering it is 43 years old and Amazon has CDs in 140,000 range in sales! BTW, the other two are doing similarly well and WCAOD is maintaining that position and it's not even available yet! Viva Herb and the TJB!!

David,
feeling like 1966 all over again......

 

[thetijuanataxi]

There we go again with the blanket use of unflattering terms to describe TLB re-issue. Ok, I don't listen through headphones so I can't comment on sound quality there. But I will tell you what I have observed about the reissue of TLB as compared to its 1988 counterpart and the LP. Texturewise, the reissue has much more of a live sound than the 1988 CD and is closer to the record. Separationwise, the reissue has much greater separation than the LP or 1988 CD, which comes across wonderfully on speakers. I can understand it being a bit much on headphones because at times there is virtually nothing coming out of the left speaker. Detailwise the reissue is much better than the 1988 CD and closer to the record. For the first time, I heard someone in the background say something after the first round of ya-ya-ya-yas on TIJUANA SAUERKRAUT and someone laughing before the final 2 trtumpet notes of NEVER ON SUNDAY. These details are buried on the 1988 CD. Now, as many realize, the more revealing you get, the more you are going to uncover some of the anomalies that were peresent on the recording. And there are areas where there is a little distortion. But I don't think Herb could have gotten rid of it without compromising the sound quality of the music. And these flaws are there on both the LP and the 1988 CD. Just not as noticeable because the resolution isn't as great. I don't understand what all these critics of TLB sound quality were expecting, but I can assure you that sonically this reissue is an improvement over the 1988 version. I can't say why the separation is so noticeably more extreme than the LP or 1988 version, but it works pretty well with speakers. I guess that those who have headphones may feel differently. But sucks is a very nasty description of the album's sound quality considering that I and several others see improvements in several ways.

David,
reminding that "reality" is a state of mind..........



.

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

It's interesting to me but I like "The Lonely Bull" album much better now than I did 35 years ago. It reminds me of the bands I use to hear in the late 50's as a little kid and the "Chicano Bands" I would hear in the 60's in South Phoenix. Ask any older Latino "Valley of the Sun" native about the "Riverside Ballroom" in South Phoenix. There are a lot of similarities between LA & Phoenix music and Mr. Alpert had a real grasp of it.

Later amigos...............Jay JO

 

[carlito]

Captain Bacardi: "The fact is that Herb Alpert is not a great trumpeter by any means."

Sorry, I can not let that one go by. Assuming that Herb Alpert is the trumpet player on the first five TJB albums, I disagree with that statement. Herb Alpert may not be a master of triple tonguing or a stratospheric technician, but neither then was Miles Davis or Louis Armstrong.

What Herb Alpert does have is a luscious round mid-register, an effortlessly controlled vibrato (listen to The Shadow Of Your Smile or Angelito), a superb sense of rhythm and phrasology (check out Mae, The Robin or Route 101), and an alternately passionate and playful musicality that shines through from the soul and the heart (hear the Fandango or Colors CD). All this, plus it only takes about three notes to figure out that Herb Alpert is playing the song.

As far as the new TLB CD, I did some restoration work in Wavelab, nothing too radical, and the CD is now very listenable. Sadly, it wouldn't have taken that much effort for the producers to have done the same. They did do as much on the LT CD on tracks where new trumpet parts were added.

As far as SOTB CD, All My Loving is plagued by dropouts throughout the song. They would have been wiser to slip in the version from the 1988 CD. On the other hand, SOTB, the song, came out beautiful.

Carlito

 

[DAN BOLTON]

After close analysis of this thread, I have come to the folowing conclusions...
1.THE LONELY BULL was really a novelty song, but not in the usual sense. It wasn't funny.

2. The album followed that theme. It may not have been such a novelty as the title song, but it was NOVEL.

3. If the album was indeed "rushed", it was done so in a very orderly manner, and in a much more sophisticated way than, say, Billy Ray Cyrus' first album...which was cut in a couple of weeks.

4. It may not have been the most polished album in the world, but VOLUME 2 was infinitely more so, and that sucker TANKED the first time around, didn't it? The "looseness" of TLB adds to the flavor, and really creates the mood.

5. DESIFINADO marked the first appearance of the style that Herb would later perfect on such albums as SRO and NINTH, etc...he might not have been really good at it yet, but everybody has to start somewhere...and as for "less that stellar playing" and this is the last time I'll bring this up, JMK, I promise...just exactly how much can you do with that tune, anyway? Herb made it a bounce, nobody else did; and it sounds like he and Julius were having a ball adlibbing with each other...and IT WAS THEIR FIRST TIME...

6. This album was obviously fun to put together...there's a lot of laughing going on in the background on more than one track. And, that makes it fun to listen to.

7. Charles Champlin said in the liner notes for GREATEST HITS that Herb's version of NEVER ON SUNDAY was the most familiar version of the song, ever. Not bad for a rush job, eh?

One more thing...getting it "right" or perfect, was never the intention of the TJB...if you try to analyze the music to death, you really miss the point. Herb was famous for bringing in the janitor to do background vocals on more than one song. He may not have been the greatest trumpet player in the world, but he certainly did the most with what he was given. The sum is greater than the total of the parts. Herb made the trumpet a romantic instrument instead of a majestic heraldic device that, quite frankly, bores the crap out of me. In a way, TLB is Herb at his most innocent...searching for a sound, vulnerable...almost naked in places...haunting, to say the least...and not afraid to take a chance. It paid off...and that really is his legacy, isn't it?




Dan

 

[daveK]

I do agree that listening to the TLB on headphones is not a pleasant experience. That was how I listened to this new CD first and I thought it was a botched job. I'm not sure why it sounds so good to me out of speakers and so bad out of headphones. I think it's a little bass-heavy in parts which creates some distortion for the headphone listener. Fortunately, I do most of my listening in my car and it sounds better everytime I play it. I think there are a lot of early stereo recordings that don't sound right with headphones. I will say this though. The remastering job on this CD certainly doesn't "suck"!

 

[Rudy]

I do agree that listening to the TLB on headphones is not a pleasant experience. That was how I listened to this new CD first and I thought it was a botched job. I'm not sure why it sounds so good to me out of speakers and so bad out of headphones. I think it's a little bass-heavy in parts which creates some distortion for the headphone listener.

Parts of the CD are mastered a bit loud--the one channel in Tijuana Sauerkraut has a lot of brick wall limiting on it, for example. This wouldn't cause distortion on the disc, but if someone were listening over cheaper headphones or something like a portable CD player that didn't have a strong output, it COULD distort the sound somewhat.

I will say that it is disconcerting to listen to "stereo" albums like this one (notice the quotes ) through headphones because there are times when the one channel is nearly silent, while the other is playing all the music. The mono version of this album still works quite well after 43 years! If you really want to get a headache with headphones, try listening to Brasil '66's "Fool On The Hill", the Butch Cassidy soundtrack or "The Brass Are Comin'", all of which were run through the dreaded CSG encoding! That out of phase signal is really uncomfortable to hear over 'phones--sometimes it feels like your eardrums are being sucked sideways!

 

[Harry]

With these strict two-channel recordings, when one is silent, and you're listening with headphones - think about it: Your brain is used to interpreting what you hear with your two ears. When one channel is suddenly silent, you're basically reduced to what a person who is deaf in one ear hears. It takes time to become 'comfortable' with that arrangement.

When you play the same music through speakers, even with one channel silent, that ear will pick up the room acoustics of your listening room, and you'll essentially still be hearing out of both ears, with the one-channeled program giving directionality to the sound stage.

But with headphones on, your left ear (in this case) is denied the 'priviledge' of hearing the room acoustics since it's cut off from the playback environment.

Hence, when you listen to the old LONELY BULL disc, with its narrowed stereo stage, a little bit of information is still coming through that left channel, making headphone listening more comfortable.

Harry

 

[bruckner1]

I was recently able to get a near-mint condition mono copy of TLB (complete with logo at 12 0'clock, a first for me). In mono there's really nothing, sound-wise, to get in the way of the enjoyment of the music.

On another matter, I think that Herb is a great trumpet player. There are countless definitions of greatness, and distinctiveness (which Herb has in spades) is at the top of the list for me.

 

[Captaindave]

On another matter, I think that Herb is a great trumpet player. There are countless definitions of greatness, and distinctiveness (which Herb has in spades) is at the top of the list for me.

This is true.

Herb is a very fine player.

Herb has the most important thing about the trumpet mastered, and that is TONE. Herb's tone and musical expression are second to none.

It is not necessary to play in the extreme high register, or to play a gazillion notes per second to be a great player. The music that comes from Herb's horn, and the exceptional tone and sound...that's what it's about for me.

 

[Mike]

Based on the assumption that TLB was basic and raw but monumental as the beginning of what would be a musical phenomenon… Would anyone draw the same sort of comparison with “Bullish” as the launching pad to all herbs solo albums?

 

[Harry]

Herb's trumpet playing abilities posts have been split off into another thread. Continue this discussion about THE LONELY BULL here.

Harry
...and the A&M Corner moderating team...

 

[Mike]

Harry, again... I bow to your wisdom. Well done!