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The "Original " Lonely Bull

Discussion in 'The Beat of The Brass: Herb Alpert/Tijuana Brass' started by TallPaulInKy, Sep 14, 2015.

  1. TallPaulInKy

    TallPaulInKy Member Thread Starter

    This may have been discussed before, and I am sorry as I have searched the subject and not found an answer. It's my understanding that Lonely Bull was recorded in a garage and later the album was recorded at Conway Recorders.

    Wasn't a few pressings of Lonely Bull out on Carnival?
    If that is the case, was the Carnival pressing different (other than label) than the A&M version? I have two copies of the A&M version, but haven't heard an earlier one.


    The session contract for AFM, which everybody claims Herb Alpert admitted to not paying scale for The Lonely Bull session...was filled out later when he owned up to his non-union recording. This makes sense since The Lonely Bull entered the Cashbox charts on Oct 20, 1962 ; Billboard in the October 27th issue and the session sheet claims the song was recorded on Oct 29th???

    My thought is this sheet maybe for the album.

    Could someone (Harry?) summarize this early beginning for me????
  2. Mike Blakesley

    Mike Blakesley Well-Known Member Moderator

    According to Herb's BBC interview, he released his "Tell it to the Birds" single under the Carnival label and later licensed it to Dot Records for $500. They were going to release "The Lonely Bull" on Carnival, but found out there was already a label with that name, and they tried several other names and found that "A&M" was the only one that wasn't already taken. Hence, "The Lonely Bull" was the first release on A&M.

    When I saw your post title I thought you might be asking about the song "Twinkle Star" which became "The Lonely Bull." Apparently Sol Lake had recorded a demo of the the song and it was faster and more lightweight with almost a polka feel. I've always wanted to hear THAT version.
  3. TallPaulInKy

    TallPaulInKy Member Thread Starter

    Thanks for that reply Mike...I too would like to hear Twinkle Star especially if it was considerably different than Lonely Bull.
  4. Steve Sidoruk

    Steve Sidoruk Founder, A&M Fan Net Moderator

    Some history (from A&M Records, The 1st Ten Years): "Tell It To The Birds" (Carnival 701) was released
    July 25, 1962. It was doing well and Wink Martindale bought it for Dot Records, for distribution eveywhere
    except California. Carnival 702 by Charlie Robinson was released next. In August '62, "The Lonely Bull" was
    recorded, but release was held up due to the issue of what the record label would be - Carnival was already taken,
    so it became A&M Record Co. 703.




    You'll notice the progression of the labels/logos. The 1st 45 with A&M Record Co. in script, has no matrix (delta) number
    at all in the dead wax with which to determine the pressing date. The 2nd pressing has a delta number - 44692,
    which places it approximately mid-September 1962. Likely an oversight, the third label change went on a record
    with the same delta number.

    The sessions for "The Lonely Bull" album took place on October 29, 31, November 3 and 5, 1962. What follows is
    a trade ad appearing in CASH BOX on November 24, 1962. The album released on December 1, 1962.

    Lonely Bull Trade Ad.jpg

    As an aside, the secord AFM sheet appearing in The Wrecking Crew pdf is for Jack Jones' vocal
    version of "the Lonely Bull for Kapp Records.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
    toeknee4bz likes this.
  5. Notice the first label above has a matrix number of "A&M-1005". The next two change that to "CAR-1005", which is likely a "Carnival" number.

  6. Steve Sidoruk

    Steve Sidoruk Founder, A&M Fan Net Moderator

    I think that you're referring to the Master Number, as they also appear on the AFM sheets for singles recorded. The October 29, 1962, also shows 1007 and 1008, which were for The Kenjolairs' single.
  7. Captain Bacardi

    Captain Bacardi Well-Known Member Moderator

    That's totally different from what I've read. Herb said in an interview that Sol Lake did the song with a rather ethereal feel to it and played it in the higher octave of the piano. I believe it was the Hollywood Palace episode that had the A&M artists on it where Herb was at the piano slowly playing "Lonely Bull" on the upper register of the piano before introducing a guest. That's how Sol imagine the song.
  8. Captain Bacardi

    Captain Bacardi Well-Known Member Moderator

    A few months ago Randy said something about those AFM contracts not being all that accurate to begin with. Perhaps that's a possibility.
  9. Mike Blakesley

    Mike Blakesley Well-Known Member Moderator

    Not sure where I heard that info - I do remember about it being higher pitched. There's been such a flood of Herb-info over the past 10 years that it's hard to process it all sometimes.

    I also remember someone saying something about it being more like a music box tune originally.
  10. Rudy

    Rudy ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ Site Admin

    Matrix numbers only reflect what was on the lacquer master or stamper, and those are often reused. Even some of the oldies reissue 45s from the 1980s used original stampers from the 1950s or 1960s (and they sound excellent BTW).

    I have a copy of this single with the pre-logo cursive A&M, and can vouch for it sounding quite good. If only it weren't off-center...
    KentTeffeteller likes this.
  11. DeeInKY

    DeeInKY Well-Known Member

    How does a single get cut off-center? Seems like it wouldn't play... :?:
  12. Mike Blakesley

    Mike Blakesley Well-Known Member Moderator

    It doesn't have to be off by much. 1/16 of an inch is enough to make it have a "wow" sound when it plays.
  13. With a 45 though, you can manually center the grooves by removing the spindle adapter, watching the record turn and pushing the edge in the direction it needs to go. When it's centered, the grooves will appear to remain stationary, not moving back and forth.

    You can do it with off-center albums too, but you often have to bore out a bigger center hole.

  14. Rudy

    Rudy ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ Site Admin

    It's too much of a bother on my main turntable to mess with 45s, so I rarely play those.

    Nakamichi made a turntable called the Dragon CT, which had a self-centering feature. That would be a great thing to have around for problem records, but it's rare, and was pricey to begin with...


    That arm in the rear controlled the computerized centering process.
  15. Mike Blakesley

    Mike Blakesley Well-Known Member Moderator

    I had a Technics turntable that had concentric grooves in the rubber mat that exactly lined up with a 45. You could just center the record in those grooves if the hole was off center -- and it happened quite a bit.
  16. Rudy

    Rudy ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ Site Admin

    Mine isn't a mat so much as it is a flat disc of vinyl that is welded to the top of a cast metal and machined platter (and dampened underneath with dense Sorbothane). It's an ideal surface for the records but it does make removing 45s and 10" records a bit tricky. (And then I have to wipe it down if I get fingerprints on it.)

    My Denon has a ridged mat but I don't think the ridges line up with the sides of the record.
  17. Rudy

    Rudy ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ Site Admin

    The record is cut to lacquer with no problems, but sometimes when the stampers are not carefully put into the press, they can be slightly off-center. I have some records where one side is off-center and the other isn't, such as this one (on my copy, side 2 is off-center):

  18. In fact my copy of MAIN EVENT- L IVE has side 2 nearly an inch off true. Had to bore an extra hole...
  19. DeeInKY

    DeeInKY Well-Known Member

    In inch? That seems pretty extreme. Anybody have any worse cases?
  20. Rudy

    Rudy ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ Site Admin

    Never had one that bad. I did buy a really bad 180g pressing of the first Black Sabbath where both sides were off, but side two was far worse. Dr. Rhino replaced it for me. All is good now.
  21. DeeInKY

    DeeInKY Well-Known Member

    Where oh where is quality control. Didn't realize that was what makes that "wow" sound. Haven't heard it lately, but it makes me want to check my records more closely.
  22. Mike Blakesley

    Mike Blakesley Well-Known Member Moderator

    If you have an LP with a "wow," and you have the capability to turn it into a CD, what I've done is take a 1/2" drill bit and drill the hole out bigger. That way you can fiddle with it until the GROOVES are rotating in a perfect circle (not wavering in and out). Then rip it to your computer, make a CD and if you really want the LP version, just look for a better archival copy.
  23. Rudy

    Rudy ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ Site Admin

    I have a copy of The Brass are Comin' which is off-center, almost oblong-shaped (you can tell it's not simply off-center). I've seen that a couple of times. Makes me think it didn't release from the press properly.

    This is from an old post: the record is slightly off center:

    If you carefully listen, you can hear the pitch changing up and down.

    That's not my record, but it's the promo copy of the commercially-released single. I remembered it has this huge lead-in area (which you can see here).
  24. DeeInKY

    DeeInKY Well-Known Member

    You really can see it there. Tone arm is wavering back and forth and yeah I can hear it. I have been known to watch a record play but haven't seen anything quite like that. Then again I wouldn't have known what I was seeing so it may not have stood out. Hmmm.
  25. Rudy

    Rudy ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ Site Admin

    BTW, my stock copy of that same single is perfect. Not off-center at all.
    KentTeffeteller likes this.

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