The semi-official VOLUME 2 thread

[Mike Blakesley]

He has said that he'd like to have VOLUME 2 sound less "metallic" and I think I understand what he means. Just listen to any compilation that includes "Marching Thru Madrid" and note the difference in the sound between it and anything before or after. It's pretty striking.

I tried messing with "MTM" myself for a compilation I made. Added some bass and tried to tone down some of the other frequencies. It made the song fit in a "little" better with the later recordings but there's still a striking difference. Can't put a complete finger on it, it's just the sound.

 

[Numero Cinco]

The affection for Volume 2 on this site is unmistakable. I join with its expression. And I don't think it's merely a matter of The Completists looking to see the full catalogue reissued for the sake of principle alone, though there's nothing wrong with that.

The thing that fascinates me about this album is its prototypical quality: the way in which H. A. was experimenting with his newly discovered sound in order to move it beyond the novelty of a peculiar form of Latin exotica. All of the songs are not the most hummable, to be sure, but the arrangements and their execution are planting seeds for later tracks that would blossom:

"The Great Manolette": Herb's solid, solo announcement that, after "The Lonely Bull," he was back and intended to stay;

"Spanish Harlem": Serious, yet spry and mischievous ("Salud, Amor Y Dinero");

"Swinger from Seville": The dress rehearsal for "Love Potion #9";

"Winds of Barcelona" and "Crea Mi Amor": First drafts of "El Présidente" and "Adios, Mi Corazon";

"The Green Leaves of Summer": Volume 2's "Let It Be Me," covering a pop hit of the era while looking ahead to slightly up-tempo ballads like "Angelito" and "Felicia"—and a gorgeous song in its own right;

"More": An early example of Herb's ability to hear and re-create a song of a certain style in a completely fresh way (think "Taste of Honey" or "Flamingo");

"Marching Through Madrid": a very different tone-poem from the same composer of Madrid's "Memories," using "Acapulco" wood-blocks. The clip-clop would reappear (re-sound?) in "Cowboys and Indians."

"Mexican Corn": Classic TJB shuffle, using the alto sax that would return throughout Whipped Cream and the flute in "Angels Sing" and "The Robin."

All those drunken crowd-supported tracks—"Swinger," "A-Mer-I-Ca," "Milord"—are early variations of the sing-alongs we'd get in "Hello, Dolly!" and "Mame," to say nothing of the immortal "Talk to the Animals."

Along with The Lonely Bull—whose musical range is not, I think, the equal of its immediate successor—Volume 2 is, in hindsight, a seminal work.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I like to think of VOL 2 as what TLB might have been if there'd have been more time to put it together. It's well known by now that TLB was recorded in just a couple of weeks, and considerably more time and effort were available for the making of VOL 2; also, Herb had more experience at assembling all the elements that go into developing a sound.

Maybe the two albums should be listened to together...to me, they really come from the same place. It's the same basic formula; maybe not quite as fresh or novel, but developed to a much higher plateau...it's a more professional effort in every way[not to say that TLB wasn't a professional effort...]. It just didn't sell...the public wasn't quite ready for it.

One of these days, I'm boing to make my own two-fer of VOL 2 and TLB.

As for a "metallic" sound, well...to each his own, but I don't really see anything wrong with it. MTM sounds kind of ethereal to me, much the way JERUSALEM does. I get the feeling I'm listening to a newsreel soundtrack, or maybe an early '40's western epic with John Wayne or Gary Cooper.

I'm beginning to think that VOL 2 might be a very difficult album to remaster...maybe there wouldn't be any significant sonic improvement over the old A&M disc. And, it would detract from the rest of the reissues to rerelease the old disc. I have some concerns about a reissue of TBAC, for the same reasons[that **!!*#* HAECO-CSG process...] Hope I'm wrong...




Dan

 

[Harry]

A similar thing happened when I put together that CD of charted TjB hits. "Marching Through Madrid" is the very first track, having come in at #96, and is VOLUME 2's only representation. As the album starter, I'm often hit with just how harsh and "metallic" it does sound. I took it strainght from the old VOLUME 2 CD without any attempt at altering it, but it surely would benefit from some kind of tweaking, soundwise.

Harry

 

[Steve Sidoruk]

It seems to me that warming up Volume 2 shouldn't be an impossible task. A good example is Sergio's The Very Best Of, 2CD U.K. set from 1997. The tracks definitely have a warmer, not so harsh sound, and to me are very pleasing to the ear!

 

[Dave]

...The songs, the arrangements and their execution are planting seeds for later tracks that would blossom:

...Those drunken crowd-supported tracks—"Swinger," "A-Mer-I-Ca," "Milord"—are early variations of the sing-alongs we'd get in "Hello, Dolly!" and "Mame," to say nothing of the immortal "Talk to the Animals"...

Don't forget "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da", a "Crowd-Pleasin'Sing-A-Long" from Warm...


Dave

...Who's sure The Band got "high" on the Spirit of the Songs--Hopefully!

 

[Harry]

2/21/06

Thread title changed to "semi-official" and stickied to hopefully prevent the spread of further VOLUME 2 threads.

Harry

 

[Dore Adler]

Thank you!

I did a needle-drop of Vol 2 and only slight eq adjustment was needed to make it sound really really good! I love Marching Thru Madrid -- in fact I can't stop humming it! And A-Mer-I-Ca is just simply classic TJB!!! It's time to finally add this one to the re-release program!!

 

[Harry]

I was going to suggest a needle drop - the warmth of vinyl helps this album's sound a lot compared with the harsh-sounding old CD.

Harry

 

[LPJim]

Luckily I found a copy of the '88 CD of VOL. 2 for $6 in a cut-out bin. This was some 2 years after (stupidly) deciding to pass up a factory sealed (in longbox) copy I spotted elsewhere.

It sounds just fine to me. If/when VOL. 2 gets reissued I'm much more likely to buy it immediately if it's got a bonus track or two. Surely they'd add "Mexican Drummer Man" if nothing else.
JB

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Herb Alpert is in the enviable position of not having to have anyone else's approval or permission to reissue any of his music from the TJB on out. Most artists, even big name artists are dependent on their label and several other factors. An example would be Engelbert Humperdinck and Tom Jones. Both were hugely popular around the same time as Herb and the Brass and both continue to do real well on the concert circuit as well as oldies stations. Both have NO original 60's or 70's US albums available on CD. And you think Herb had a lot of compilations out before the Signature Series? Holy redundant Ricky!, these poor souls have more compilations on CD than original albums and as far as I know, there is no reissue program in place for them. Though there damn well ought to be. Back to Herb: Especially given his total control over reissues, All of Herb's "best" to his "worst" works are deserving of the reissue program. I put quotations on best and worst because everyone of Herb's fans has a different opinion as to which albums fit those descriptions. And while VOLUME 2 may not get as many votes for best as say "GOING PLACES", there are enough threads and discussions brewing about it to indicate significant interest in it. I'm sure the same could be said for the remainder of the yet un-released TJBs. I am a big fan Of V2. Like I've stated earlier, it's not my favorite TJB album, but I like it and feel that it is an important part of the TJB's rise to super stardom. As others have stated, it is overall a more solid, cohesive package than LONELY BULL and while there were no major hits on it, I think the fact that it is more "Mexican" sounding and less commercial sounding is what makes it great. It's still a rocking party album as far as I'm concerned. And as for it's sound quality, The original vinyl LP sounds great. The 1988 CD was metallic sounding. But I'm sure that Herb and Larry could correct that if they reissued the album. C'mon Herb, considering how well you've done so far with this project, it would be a real shame if you left this big hole unfilled.

David,
looking forward to VOLUME 2 in 2006......

 

[lonely bull]

You know, it's amazing how people can change their point of view towards particular albums - a year ago when I joined this forum not too many people wanted to see Volume 2 reissued - they seemed to agree with Herb that it was not one of his best - I think maybe they still think that. But something has changed in the last Year - could it be that the feeling is that the catalogue is not complete without it ? But then again, we still have not seen " Warm " or " TBAC " but there are no where near the amount of threads complaining about their absence compared to Vol 2. No, I think maybe it's purely because this album always was and always will be a classic - always under rated and always targeted for unfair critisism - even from Herb himself.Personally, I don't care about Warm or TBAC too much - yes, it would be great to have them onboard for the sake of completeness - but I don't think that they merit it like Vol 2 does - and I think that over this last Year most people would agree - or am I wrong?

 

[Harry]

I can't speak for "most people" but I can voice my own opinion. VOLUME 2 has its merits, but if it never sees a re-issue, I can live with that. For me it would be important from a completeness standpoint, given how little I listen to the existing CD.

However, if WARM doesn't ever get a CD issue, it'll be a crime. It remains my single favorite TjB album, regardless of any criticisms or perceived problems. I don't even care if Herb wants to reissue it as a solo album - just reissue it!

THE BRASS ARE COMIN' would be nice to have as well, but again, if it didn't, I'd learn to live with that fact. I've got it on clean vinyl that sounds pretty good, as well as a copy of the Japanese CD that someone was kind enough to make for me.

So, in order of preference, I'd like to see for any remaining re-issues of original TjB material:

WARM <--------- (emphatically! - ...and I mean it!)
THE BRASS ARE COMIN'
VOLUME 2

Harry

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I have to echo Harry's sentiments here -- he and I are on the exact same page. I would like to have VOLUME 2 but I don't really need it. My two favorite songs on it -- "A-Me-Ri-Ca" and "Marching THru Madrid" - are covered on compilations. (Although "A-Me-Ri-Ca" is criminally ignored on most comps!)

My "taste" for the TJB starts with the WHIPPED CREAM album and I'm not a huge fan of the earlier ones. Even SOUTH OF THE BORDER, while a good album, doesn't spark me up the way the later albums do.

I don't agree that VOLUME 2 is

an important part of the TJB's rise to super stardom

If anything it's just Herb trying to have another hit, but stepping off in the wrong direction, only to correct himself later. The American record-buying public didn't want more Mexican-flavored trumpet pop; what they wanted was more rock'n'roll style, and they got it on SOUTH OF THE BORDER and beyond.

Having said all of this, I still hope that the entire TJB catalog gets its due CD release. Even though I know I'll only give VOLUME 2 a cursory listen and then set it aside (which is what I did with LONELY BULL) I'll still buy it.

 

[Captaindave]

I find each TJB album to be sufficiently unique and interesting to be "collectible" when assembling a collection of what I would call the "essential" Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass collection. For me, this begins with LB and ends with WARM. 1962 - 1969 era (although I know that TBAC was released in later 1969, I have my own quirky little grouping system which ends with WARM). I will collect V2 if it comes out and WARM. Neither are favorites of mine, but I would want them in the collection.

My personal preferences in TJB sound begins with SOTB, and tends to end with BOTB. I find unique and interesting things on LB and V2, and I have some interest in what is going on with WARM. But, the "heart" of it for me is as above. After that, the original era ends - I have never been excited at all about TBAC or Summertime; I almost see them as some kind of postscripts to the end of that era, which for me, was already over with WARM.

I regard the reformed TJB in the seventies, and the Herb Alpert solo albums as separate categories of music - to be evaluated for collecting if/when it is released.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I've been listening to VOl 2 a lot over the last couple of days, and have drawn the conclusion that this album was meant to be a festival album. The cover says it all...a street band playing outdoors...with maybe a couple of exceptions, mainly MEXICAN CORN; the album seems to give the illusion as to have been recorded at a bullring.

This album is really a progenitor of RISE, in a way...long before lowriders and homeboys...so, only the East LA culture would really embrace it...they're the only ones who could really appreciate it in 1963. If the album has a real fault, it's just in being ahead of its' time.


I wonder what Los Lobos, Los Lonely Boys and The Red Hot Chili Peppers might do with a remix of this album?


Dan

 

[Dave]

...Vol. 2--Herb Alpert's Tijuana Brass, Volume 2, as I've seen it, was everything The Lonely Bull wanted to be... It really was a Party Album and probably was intended to be very Latino-esque, before Herb, then-thereafter, made virtually all of his material the "Ameriachi"-interpretation of the American Pop Song of Today... It was the Rise of its time in that it was bold and advanced and almost like Coney Island or You Smile... in which there was a bit of depth, while maintaining some personal or introspective moments you'd later hear on Just You And Me, though not the Total Intimacy, as this was a "Group Effort"!

Yes, what if this, plus the Bonus-single, "Mexican Drummer Man", did become the NEXT Re-Mix Project...!


Dave

 

[Harry]

I too listened to this album recently - last evening, on my way home from work. As I started up the CD player I was greeted with the harsh-sounding "Lonely Bull"-wannabe, "The Great Manolete". At around the 1:45 mark, there's a trumpet flourish immediately followed by another overdubbed flourish ending on a high note. As both trumpets blare the high note, you can actually hear a bit of flanging - the sound of two very similar sounds beating against each other.

After once through on that track, I decided I'd adjust my car stereo's tone controls. After adjusting the highs way down and the lows way up, I repeated track 1. The song sounded mellower, not as harsh - and I listened to the entire rest of the album, hearing a few things that I hadn't noticed in recent years. Things like the sound of a guitar chord that was buried underneath the overbearing highs, now brought to the surface with my simple tone control adjustment.

I now have high hopes that Larry Levine and Herb can fairly easily tweak some controls in their infinitely more complex sound studios to produce a really good-sounding version of VOLUME 2 - should they choose to. At least I'm confident that it's possible...

Harry

 

[ormandy]

I found Volume 2 on CD (mint condition) the other day
and have been playing it almost nonstop. I've also
been playing with the knobs a bit. I've turned down the highs
a little and boosted the bass. Actually, I have a button
on my receiver called "bass extension" which brings out
more kick drum and bass warmth. Anyway, this is such a
good album I have no doubts about it getting released
in the near future.

 

[Chinese Sausage]

I know this puts me going against the flow, but the two albums I have been looking forward to most on CD are Volume 2 and The Brass Are Coming.

Phil

Volume 2 has good songs, should be re-issued. It is an underrated album. My favorite tracks are More and Mexican Corn.

The Brass Are Comin' is my favorite album.

 

[B-Dub]

Mr. Alpert must've thought enough about volume 2 to include both "A-mer-i-ca" on the Greatest Hits LP (from the early '70's) and "Marching Thru Madrid" on the 25th anniversary CD. Or...maybe he thought well of just these two tracks, and not that well of the others.

Personally, as I was just taking a listen to my original LP copy of volume 2, I was struck by its vitality, energy, and downright bawdiness! It definitely has the feel and tone of a party album. There's a real presence on most of the tracks that literally shouts out youth and vigor and celebration. I'm all for a reissue, if that what the SF and Mr. A. wish.

 

[B-Dub]

An interesting observation regarding volume 2's unique significance: only the second (and last) of the 2 compositions which featured a collaboration credit from both Mr. Alpert and Mr. Moss is featured on the LP, "Surfin' Senorita" (perhaps an oblique nod to the Beach Boys, who were hugely popular in 1963, the year volume 2 was released).

The writer's credit for "Surfin'" (which is a delightful tune, by the way) is "Moss-Alpert" on my copy of the LP. Just wondering out loud, what if the record label had been named M&A Records, instead of A&M? Was there any discussion between the two founders at the beginning about whose initial should go first, or was A&M just the natural choice from the beginning, no argument?