THE TIJUANA BRASS featuring JULIUS WECHTER

[thetijuanataxi]

Okay fellow Cornerites, especially those of you with ears keen enough to notice dropouts on "Monday, Monday", I hereby make this declaration. The first 4 Baja albums were essentially the TJB featuring Julius Wechter. I say the only difference between the early BMB and TJB was who was at the helm. Both Herb and Julius have stated that the same musicians were used for both bands in the recording studio. And despite what has been said in earlier discussions, I am convinced that Herb Alpert indeed plays trumpet on those first 4 Baja albums. I know that Julius said Herb didn't play on those recordings, but perhaps his memory wasn't entirely accurate or maybe he had an agreement with Herb not to tell. Just listen to the beginning of "Spanish Eyes" and tell me the trumpeter isn't the same one featured on "Salud, Amor, Y Dinero". Tell me it's not Herb on "Guacamole" and "Hecho In Mexico" Herb co-arranged and produced those albums and even sang on "Going Out The Side Door". Not to mention that he was pictured incognito on the album covers. That being the case, with the shoestring budget that A&M was on at the time, and no touring schedule to bog him down, why on earth would Herb have paid another trumpeter to sound THAT much like him? It clearly defies logic. And if you listen carefully, (especially you trumpet players out there), it becomes clear that it's Herb playing on most if not all the early BMB tracks. Sure his attack is different and his horn blends into the band rather than being the dominant sound of the band. But it's just Herb changing roles the way a fine actor does to fit the movie he's in. Certainly, it is not Lee Katzman. There is a definite change in the trumpet sound where he takes over. BTW, it is clearly Bob Edmonson's trombone on "More". I challenge the golden eared of the Cornerite clan to relisten to those albums and then tell me it's not Herb on those albums. Until Herb himself looks me in the eye and says it wasn't him, I will be convinced that it is.

David,
realizing why I always liked those first 4 Baja LPs the best.......

 

[Mr Bill]

I tend to agree with you. In fact, I'd say the first 15 A&M albums and all singles up to that point likely featured the same core of musicians -- the exceptions being Dave Lewis (recorded in Seattle and "picked up" by A&M and We Five (a "Trident Production" essentially manufactured & distributed by A&M). These musician's style's can be detected on selected albums well into the early 4200 series as well. Besides, it's ben long known the West Coast "Wrecking Crew" had a major hand in the classic A&M Sound.

As for the TJB and BMB albums produced prior to the formation of "real" or "touring" line ups, I think you may be right, as well. The biggest difference between cuts on a BMB or TJB album are practically which instrument -- trumpet or mrimba -- is featured.

--Mr Bill

 

[Harry]

I know that Julius said Herb didn't play on those recordings, but perhaps his memory wasn't entirely accurate or maybe he had an agreement with Herb not to tell.

...he was pictured incognito on the album covers. That being the case, with the shoestring budget that A&M was on at the time, and no touring schedule to bog him down, why on earth would Herb have paid another trumpeter to sound THAT much like him?

These have been pet theories of mine as well. Let's face it, those early albums spanned several years, there was no big live appearances, Herb's right there in the studio producing, so why hire another trumpet player?

We're supposed to believe that Herb played uncredited on Lucille Starr's album, but not on buddy Julius', except one track? I don't buy it - never did. My feeling is that it was indeed an agreement to keep the fact unknown to the public -- and we know that Julius was good at keeping secrets. It was all probably an effort to keep the two 'bands' as two separate entities: Juluis gets no credit on the TJB albums, Herb gets no credit on the BMB albums.

Gotta be.

Harry
...convinced, online...

 

[Mr Bill]

Just compare both bands' Las Mananitas. I know some think they're two different recordings, but to my ear it's the same song on both BMB's For Animals Only and the TJB's Christmas Album with maybe some tinkering in the mix. Heck, they even clock in at more or less the same length -- what's one second on a track that fades out? It was even the b-side of the TJB's Whipped Cream single before it appeared on ...Animals...

--Mr Bill

 

[Rudy]

I don't know if it's an edit or not, but the intro to BMB's version is slower than TJB's. It's definitely recorded at Gold Star, though...can tell by that echo. Not sure of their "multitrack" capabilites back then, so it's a tossup as to whether it's just a different mix, or if it was easier to just record it twice with different instrumentals.

 

[Rudy]

The whole Herb/Not Herb debate is so tricky! I mean, you can make cases FOR it being Herb, and it certainly does make a lot of sense economics-wise. But also as a rule, he never appeared on a lot of other A&M artists' albums or singles either...as far as WE know.

You're right--until we heard it right from the source, we'd never know for sure.

Someone once thought it was Herb on Carpenters' "Close To You", but that turned out to be Chuck Findley. So...that's another argument where another musician could have copied Herb's style for, say, a BMB recording. Back then though, not as likely. I don't hear many "Herb clones" until the TJB got really popular and all the TJB soundalikes started coming out.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Just compare both bands' Las Mananitas. I know some think they're two different recordings, but to my ear it's the same song on both BMB's For Animals Only and the TJB's Christmas Album with maybe some tinkering in the mix. Heck, they even clock in at more or less the same length -- what's one second on a track that fades out? It was even the b-side of the TJB's Whipped Cream single before it appeared on ...Animals...

--Mr Bill

I thought I either heard or read someplace that Julius and Herb both confirmed that it indeed WAS Herb playing on Las Mananitas...at least the CHRISTMAS ALBUM version...and I agree that it doesn't follow that Herb would hire additional trumpet players when he could play the tracks himself and save a lot of money in the bargain...after all, he arranged them for the BMB, most likely...


On ALL the albums, both TJB and BMB, no matter when they were recorded, it was "first come, first served" in the studio...at least, that's what I've heard...whoever was available at the time played the session...not every touring group member played on every recording...



Dan

 

[Harry]

To clarify, I don't think EVERY trumpet track on the early BMB recordings belongs to Herb, but there are some that really do sound like him. Yes, it could've been someone like a Chuck Findley, but it just makes more sense that it was Herb.

As for "Las Mananitas", Julius himself here at the Forum confirmed that that was Herb on this particular track. He alluded to the fact that it was essentially intended as a BMB recording, but Herb liked it so much he appropriated it. To me, the two sound like different takes at the same session.

Harry
NP: "Come Saturday Morning" Sandpipers (on the radio)

 

[Rudy]

From the Gallery:

Jazzbill (love the name) ...you're right. Many of the same musicians were on both the same BMB and TJB. We used all the best studio musicians in town at the time, and changed personnel when we went out on the road. Herb did not play trumpet on the BMB albums except for his beautiful rendition of "Las Mananitas" which he loved so much he took for his own album as well.

http://www.amcorner.com/gallery/julius.php3

Straight from one amigo's mouth, or keyboard as it were....

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

Hal Blaine played drums for BMB and TJB until the touring. He did play on some of the things on "Going Places". In the 60's and early 70's, Hal was recording on so many A&M projects he had his own parking space.

Ollie Mitchel played trumpet on the first two TJB's records, and the first few BMB records. There was another trumpeter for the Baja but I don't remember his name. Later...Jay

 

[Stephen Vakil]

Did Herb play on Do You Know The Way to San Jose. It always sounded like him to me......

Stephen

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

I think once A&M got going it wouldn't have been practical for the TJB + BMB to be trading musicians. With scheduling, touring, and union contracts etc. for the most part it would have been a pain.

As far as one sounding like Herb Alpert, I don't think it would be that hard especially in the 60's when his style was dominant. How many singers sound like Neil Diamond, Elvis Presley, etc. (Trillions) When I play trumpet I have to try not to sound like Herb. I don't think I do, but others say I do. Never the less, it's a cool sexy style. Later amigos... Jay

 

[Brasil_Nut]

These have been pet theories of mine as well. Let's face it, those early albums spanned several years, there was no big live appearances, Herb's right there in the studio producing, so why hire another trumpet player?

This (almost) confirms what I've suspected all along -- and it makes a great deal of sense. As usual, I look at these things from a "Mendes" angle, an example being Equinox with John Pisano. Suddenly he's a member of Brasil '66, though we know he was a regular member of the newly-formed touring lineup of the Tijuana Brass.

It's easy to imagine Herb and Sergio brainstorming the creation of Equinox. "Why don't you use Pisano for that particular part?" or "John would be great for the opening of Cinnamon & Clove..." Why not? As Harry said, it's altogether possible -- and why bother to hire another guitarist when there's already one in the stable? Besides, it would have been possible for Pisano to do double duty on the road. After all, Brasil '66 did open for the Tijuana Brass.

We're supposed to believe that Herb played uncredited on Lucille Starr's album, but not on buddy Julius', except one track? I don't buy it - never did...

Good point. I'll bet a lot of A&M musicians did double duty on many recordings -- Herb and Julius being no exception.

My feeling is that it was indeed an agreement to keep the fact unknown to the public -- and we know that Julius was good at keeping secrets. It was all probably an effort to keep the two 'bands' as two separate entities: Juluis gets no credit on the TJB albums, Herb gets no credit on the BMB albums...

Absolutely. Someone here at the Corner mentioned the irony of Julius starting his own band to begin with, seeing as he was so involved with the Brass. Although I'm glad that Julius struck out on his own (an early attempt at what Disney would call 'Brand Essence' -- the BMB sound being at home within the image of A&M and the Brass...), as Harry says, this must have been an attempt to keep them two different entities.

Jon

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Ollie Mitchell may have done some of the BMB trumpet parts, but I seriously doubt that he did the ones that sound like Herb. I've heard Ollie's sound and it is brighter and more brassy sounding than Herb's, more like Doc Severinsen's style and tonality. As for Bob or Chuck Findley and the "Close To You" solo, I thought that solo could have been Herb, but I wasn't ready to bet the farm on it. But the early BMB songs I'm speaking of have elements to the tone and texture of the trumpet sound that are far more like musical fingerprints. Perhaps because I play the trumpet myself and have listened to Herb's playing for nearly forty years, these subtlties are more evident to me. And yes, I too think it sounds like Herb on "Do You Know The Way To San Jose?". Even though Lee Katzman was there at the time. Perhaps Herb thought it was appropriate for him to play on that track since Dionne felt the need to sing "This Girl's In Love With You". I also have wondered whether Herb played trumpet on Cat Steven's "Mathew & Son".

David,
wishing Herb would make more of the session info avalable to us.......

 

[martin]

To the best of my my knowledge, the Cat Stevens' albums were recorded in England for the Island label. The arrangement with A & M Records was a licensing deal for the US. I also believe that it is higly unlikely that Herb Alpert would have done any ordinary studiosessions as a musician, even for A & M, anytime after his breakthrough as a major star in the mid sixties. While not ruling out the posiibility entirely, I can't see why Julius Wechter, after all this time, many years after the BMB's time, and clearly touched by the interest from everyone here, should find it necessary to hold back any info on that.

- greetings from the north-
Martin