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TJB Update!

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Mike Blakesley

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Moderator
Captaindave, could you clarify just a little more please? :D

There is plenty of Herb material that I "do not like." I tend to BUY just about any Herb I find, because I like Herb's music, but there's some of it I don't like. Mostly the later material.

Amazing as it may seem (to me at least), there are people here who like the later albums better than the TJB albums. There's no point in trying to change anyone's mind, but there's plenty of room for everyone.
 
It's okay, Captain Dave. Your problem is quite curable. Just visit the "Rise Appreciation" clinic in your area and sign up for their 2 week rehabilitaton program. One of the treatments include being tied down to chair and listening to Kenny G and Michael Bolton for 5 hr stretches. The therapy continues until you are wandering the halls of the clinic and ranting "I love "Rise" incoherently. If that doesn't work they'll put you on the more severe treatment: Having to watch hours and hours of Dr. Phil explaining why you should like "Rise" followed by hours of Jon Edwards talking to spirits who are trying to reach their loved ones and confess their love for "Rise". I promise you will be a changed man when you are done. Just call 1-800-LUV-RISE and they'll tell you where to go!


David,
adding some levity and hoping to get a "Rise" online......
 

martin

Well-Known Member
Taste can not really be discussed, can it? But criticism can - and should! I simply don't agree with the statement that Herb was unoriginal when recording "Rise", I think that is a false observation.

- greetings from the north -
Martin
 

DAN BOLTON

Well-Known Member
I think we've beaten this horse to death...but I did pick up on something rom an earlier post that intrigues me. Has anyone else noticed the similarities to the melody lines of RISE and THE LONELY BULL? Both songs have an almost "wistful" romantic feel...maybe RISE is the dance version, if not the disco version of TLB. The tempos are a lot the same, too...just some thoughts...

There's nothing at all wrong with not liking RISE...I just couldn't get into NORTH ON SOUTH STREET, myself...haven't heard COLORS, but doubt if I'd really care for it, either...but I appreciate the precedents that both albums set...


Dan
 

Rudy

¡Que siga la fiesta!
Staff member
Site Admin
It's true--everyone has different tastes in music. I listen to just about anything, so if Herb did an album with Metallica, BR549, the Legendary Shack Shakers, Rev. Horton Heat or the Boston Pops, I'd probably be one of the first in line to get it. I tend to see the TJB vs. solo recordings as different, not necessarily better or worse. It's the old apples and oranges argument for me, at any rate.

Hmmm...TJB meets rockabilly...mariachabilly? :D
 

Mike

Active Member
How about: Shaken the Shack with Herb Alpert & The Legendary Shack Shaken Shack Shackers" That has at least two and a half rings of the bell in it.
 

Mike

Active Member
And he's play'n his guitar like a ring'n a bell
Go
Go, "Herb Alpert & the Legendary Shack Shakers"
Go
Go, "Herb Alpert & the Legendary Shack Shakers"
Go, go, go...

uh... maybe you better color me gone now...
 

Captaindave

Well-Known Member
JO said:
~~ Captaindave ~~

Indeed: given the state of "pop" music today, why even bother..."those" people should accept our music on our own terms...I don't see anyone trying to "musicalize" rap/crack "expression" for those of us born before 1970! ("That" kinda of music appears to be generated by musical illiterates anyway...)

The problem with Rise is that it's not original -- it's Mr. Alpert caving in to the disco sounds of the day -- as opposed to being a pacesetting artist. Think of all the artists and technicians who tried to sound like the TJB...and were criticized -- and then 8 years later, such a unique individual is doing the very same thing. The other problem is that it's dance music not listening music...I just don't have the patience for rhythmic repetition (A-HEM), that is, listening to needless repetitious musical elements...all that silly back-beat hand clapping and such. Geeze, bro, give me some real music with dynamics and tempo changes and drumming that means something...Hmmm, think I'll listen to Treasure of San Miguel!

Of Mae -- Yup! His gorgeous vibrato is remeniscent of a beautiful early '60s Donald Byrd ballad. From What Now, My Love, his tone starts to change and the horn takes on a different character. Mae and And The Angels Sing probably are the best examples of a beautiful, sweet, traditional trumpet tone that Mr. Alpert ever issued.

What kind of horns do you have?

I have a Kanstul made French Besson Classic, and a vintage King Silver Flair.

The French Besson has a Najoom leadpipe (Dennis Najoom is Co-Principal trumpet with the Milwaukee Symphony, and is a designer of various custom brass accessories). He contributed to the overall design of the French Besson Classic trumpet. This horn was made for Boosey&Hawkes, the parent company of Besson, under contract with Kanstul Musical Instruments. Kanstul is the company that makes the Kanstul Chicago trumpet, among other fine quality models. The Kanstul Chicago is a modern day duplication of the Chicago Benge; the trumpet played by Herb Alpert. Check out www.dallasmusic.net/gearhead/ to read about Benge history and Kanstul and a little about Herb Alpert mixed in there. The French Besson Classic is somewhat like a Bach Stradivarius, but I like the Besson better...

The King Silver Flair was a famous professional trumpet made by King Musical Instruments before the acquisition of King by United Musical Instruments in 1985. My horn was made in about late 1969. The Flair was the top line King trumpet back in the sixties, debuting in about 1964. The "vintage" ones like mine are sought after by collectors and those who know good trumpets. This is a wonderful, free-blowing, somewhat lightweight, versatile horn that can really "get out there" when you want it to. It is the "hallmark," the "flower" of the King trumpet production back in the sixties, IMO...

I used to have a Bach Stradivarius and a Los Angeles Benge. However, the horns I have now I prefer to those anyway, as those were in need of some overhaul. I have also played instruments by Yamaha and Blessing, but no longer.

I play a Bach 3C mouthpiece most of the time. I also sometimes play a Bach 1 1/4C, but I usually play the 3C...as Vincent Bach once said..."the choice of a mouthpiece presents a greater challenge to the player than the choice of the instrument..."
 

JOv2

Well-Known Member
~~ Dan, Captainadave ~~

Although I haven't heard Rise since probably 1978 or so...I do recall that its melody had the so-called "Spanish flare"...the minor key A section; and the B swelled into a pretty major key thing; but, to ally with Captaindave, I just cannot get into THAT ensemble sound...WHOMP, SHOOMP, whatever it is. It may be coo' for dancin' -- nowamsain -- heck, I'd probably be tempted to put on some chocolate Fred Astair moves given a couple ice-cold wefeweisens and a sweet girrrl oh, about 5' 4" at 110# (just about extinct in today’s obese-dominated society).

It is kinda interesting -- but more of a novelty: where the The Lonely Bull could've been a novelty (but ultimately was not) Rise may be more easily classified as such. I did a quick survey of the classic TJB material ('62 - '71) -– and a selection, Slick, may be the closest thing he did in approaching THAT kinda thing: It’s an R&B-ish groove with Nick and Pat essentially on autopilot...pretty boring actually. There’s another “disturbing” similarity between the two selections: in each case there appears to be little-to-no group interplay between his lines and the other ensemble members. (...Of course, all this is a function of a 17-year memory...but I heard it alot at the time...couldn't get away from it, actually! I do believe the Rise melody is actually quite good and far more interesting than the Slick melody.)

As for general criticisms of Mr. Alpert...like all artists, he's created some marvellous recordings, and some dreadful ones. Naturally, though, it's all opinion and if one piece floats your boat -- and you don't find it necessary to conquer someone else's land as a result -- then it's coo' wit me. To my ears, his trumpet playing is far more valuable for his individual style than his technical competence or improvisations... (Oh yeah, and please do not call This Guy's In Love With You great singing...cuz it ain't.)

-James
 

JOv2

Well-Known Member
~~ Captaindave ~~

Wow, man -- great horns!

I have a '72 LA Benge -- my only trumpet, actually, as my preference lay with the cornet: in that dept. I have a '03 Kanstul shepherd's crook model, which, as you know, is the "old" aesthetically-pleasing, 3-water-key Benge model. Also have an early '50s Buescher/400. For the trumpet I play with a straight 7 and a straight 3; for the cornets -- straight 7, 5A and the old 1x (yup, I like a dark sound). They're all ML or L bores. I have a Bach Strad gold-bell flugel...with a custom "5" (essentially no cup -- very French horn like) and a 5C for some bite!

-James
 

daveK

New Member
I'm not gonna say that any opinions expressed here are wrong, simply because they are not in line with my own, but I have to admit that I thought everyone here was in more agreement concerning Herb's recordings. I'm floored at comments about "Rise" being a novelty song, not having heard "Rise" since the 70s, not liking "This Guy's In Love With You", never having heard "Colours" and "Slick" being boring.
I almost feel like I signed on to the wrong forum tonight!
 
Does everyone like "Tijuana Taxi" for crying out loud? Sooner or later we gotta come across a winner!!

David,
Bringing back a Yeah Herb! to the forum........
 

Captaindave

Well-Known Member
I like Tijuana Taxi very much, as well as most other Herb and the TJB recordings.

Listen, guys, I'm 53 years old. My feet are in the sixties. :) I more or less stopped listening to radio about 1970... :wink:

I don't criticize an artist for exploring the boundaries and finding new territory. But, I can't promise that I will be able to "go along for the ride" all the time, even if I think the artist is one of the best to ever come along. If it doesn't suit my tastes and likes, I'm "staying home" and hoping the artist might return to his "roots." I think Herb sort of did that with FANDANGO...and as such, it is my favorite post-TJB album.

I have never liked anything that has the urban, street, hip-hop, disco, techno, synthesizer, thump-thump, drums and bass dominated, rap-reminiscent stuff...to say I don't like it is putting it pretty mildly. I have never listened to Colors, and don't plan to. I am also not interested in any collaboration with the likes of Janet Jackson, et.al.

I don't mind Rise as a song, but I do not like the sound of it as recorded due to it's sort of "funk disco" sound. When it first came out, it was being played in all the dance and disco clubs. I was glad to hear something from Herb again. But, it wasn't Herb that I loved. It was Herb making his mark again - good for him, but with something that personally did not appeal to me. It was that "disco orientation" that lost me on it. Not so much the song itself.

I love the sound of a trumpet played open - a little mute goes a long way with me. Here and there for "effect" - fine. But my favorite sound is that signature Herb Alpert tone.

I like Slick a lot - it was one of my favorites from the time, and I also like This Guy's...it was a big deal back when it first hit the airwaves. Lots of loving and courtship in my life going on then with that song :D IMO, it was a real winner for the time, and a real "period piece," so to speak...

I love the original TJB, and I do like some of Herb's solo projects. And, in some other cases, I feel he was looking for his next direction, but had not quite found it yet. He lost me here and there, but never for ever...obviously... :thumbsup:

Soooo....that's my rant for now... :yawn:
 

Mike Blakesley

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Moderator
James: You probably will never find anyone who'll say "This Guy" is "great singing." It isn't.....that very fact is what makes it a great RECORD.
 
Well I'm glad you like "Tijuana Taxi". For a minute there, I thought you were Maynard Ferguson in desguise. LOL Seriously, I agree with you on the subject of Herb's best solo albums being the ones that have the most latin groove. My favorites are "Fandango" and "Passion Dance" as well. Conversely, my least favorites are "Colors" and "North On South Street" too. However, that being said even my least favorite Herb albums get played from time to time because there is something redeeming on them. I never said that "Rise" was Herb's best solo song, but I do like it very much and I think it has enough of the main ingredients of his style to not be lumped into a pile with "Colors" and "NOSS". Besides as I mentioned before, had it not been for the massive success of "Rise", there might not have ever been a "Fandango" or a "Passion Dance". Herb might have given up and decided that he'd run his course. After all, nothing he did in the early or mid 70's had much commercial success, though most of it was excellent music. So "Rise" must have made Herb feel like it was 1962 all over again. I have no problem with someone saying that "Rise" is not their cup of tea. I only had a problem with people slamming it. After all, even Herb's worst efforts IMHO have some redeeming value, especially when compared to the crap that is marketed as music these days. Also, I had a problem with people saying unkind and demeaning things about Randy Badazz. He was nice enough to share with us all the plans that are in the works with us at the Forum and we're probably the only people not directly involved with the project who know about it at this early stage. And he has promised to keep Capt. Bacardi informed as the project progresses. That says to me that he is a genuinely nice man and does not deserve to be accused of being a corporate sellout in so many words. He is also Herb's nephew for crying out loud. He doesn't need to sell his uncle out to make a living! Come on guys, be kind and think about what you're saying before you slam someone like that. After the way Randy was kind enough to take the time to meet with Capt. Bacardi last month, I for one would be very embarrassed if he read those posts.
As for Herb, If he read this thread, he surely wouldn't know which direction to go as far as a new release was concerned.

David,
getting off his soapbox, for now.........
 

Mike

Active Member
I like Herb's singing on "This Guy... ", it sounds like a real guy singing to a real girl. Not just some professional crooning into a microphone hoping for a hit. And one more thing, I like "Tijuana Taxi" too!
 
The jist of my last post was not that we must solely praise Herb. It was more aimed at the tone of the criticism and if anyone doesn't understand or agree with my defense of Randy other than James, I'd like to hear about it. I don't think I said anything that wasn't true. If James is offended merely because I suggested that comments and criticisms about Herb and Randy be made with respect and courtesy, I'm sorry. But I think there is a way to state your opinion and still be respectful and courteous. James wasn't on both counts and I called him on it. And James, it's not a personal attack. I have made similar comments to others on the forum when I felt that they were not being respectful. And as stated in my last post, I do agree with some of the things that were said in regards to Herb's solo work. So, again, I did not intend to ruffle anyone's feathers. But I will say something to anyone who I feel is being disrespectful to Herb, Randy or other artists of A&M.

David,
growing tired of the way this thread has veered from the excitement it was intended for.....
 

bob knack

Well-Known Member
I always thought of Rise as having a haunting melody.

This may be because Herb bought a "haunting license".
 

Mr Bill

Gentlemanly Curmudgeon
Staff member
Moderator
Wow! This topic got so brutal it scared someone away! Haven't seen that much intensity in these here regions since the late Wendell/LP Fingerer debates! LOL.

It's great that everyone has different opinions of Herb's music and I've read this thread thoroughly twice now and I see NO personal vendetta anywhere, hidden or otherwise, so I think someone is over-reacting... As for being critical, I think EVERY Herb Album is someone's favorite and that same album is someone else's least favorite. Even then, a favorite album could contain a least favorite tune and conversely, a disliked album could contain a favorite tune...

--Mr Bill
 

Mike

Active Member
When Captain Bacardi started this thread it was about the utterly fantastic news that the TJB albums were going to be reissued. There were Champaign corks flying, people were jumping with joy and holler’n yeeeeeeee haaaaaa! Now 7 pages, 173 replies and almost 6000 views later, here we are. It seams we’ve chewed this subject to pieces, spit it out, than picked up the spewed out pieces and put them back in our mouths for another go around – and that’s cool by me. But, if Captain Bacardi gets any new information on the status of the TJB reissue project, I hope he starts a new thread for it. This one appears a little tired.

I for one love uncorking Champaign and yell’n yeeeeee haaaaaa!
 

Numero Cinco

New Member
daveK: And I recall that when Herb recorded "Rise", the original idea was to make a disco version of "The Lonely Bull".

I'm trying to imagine what on earth that would sound like. I can't. Maybe I don't want to.
 
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